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Austin Gomez retires

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I said this on facebook and I'll say it here: He made the right choice re: concussions but he was one of the most exciting "home run hitters" in the NCAA.  NEVER out of a match.  He has the family tree in coaching, and I think he'll be a really popular clinician until he starts his own club or takes over his pops.  If more kids wrestled like Austin Gomez, the sport would grow in popularity!

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36 minutes ago, Konquest said:

I said this on facebook and I'll say it here: He made the right choice re: concussions but he was one of the most exciting "home run hitters" in the NCAA.  NEVER out of a match.  He has the family tree in coaching, and I think he'll be a really popular clinician until he starts his own club or takes over his pops.  If more kids wrestled like Austin Gomez, the sport would grow in popularity!

On the other hand, the concussions might be related to his style. 

Gayle Sayers was among the most exciting runners ever but his wild style of running led to his knee injuries.

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13 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

On the other hand, the concussions might be related to his style. 

Gayle Sayers was among the most exciting runners ever but his wild style of running led to his knee injuries.

Sorry I don't think I see this.  Going for big moves makes you concussion prone?  I'm not thinking of a consistent pattern of such results in the past with other wrestlers, nor of any kind of intuitive cause and effect relationship.  

Gale Sayers was a running back who had knee problems, a common job hazard, in an era when the surgeries were terribly invasive and caused a lot of harm themselves.  I don't see "incredibly exciting due to an unmatched ability to make hard controlled cuts" as being the same as "wild style."

I don't think either of these are like, say, some outfielders who have shortened their careers by repeatedly running into walls, etc.

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34 minutes ago, drag it said:

Sorry I don't think I see this.  Going for big moves makes you concussion prone?  I'm not thinking of a consistent pattern of such results in the past with other wrestlers, nor of any kind of intuitive cause and effect relationship.  

Gale Sayers was a running back who had knee problems, a common job hazard, in an era when the surgeries were terribly invasive and caused a lot of harm themselves.  I don't see "incredibly exciting due to an unmatched ability to make hard controlled cuts" as being the same as "wild style."

I don't think either of these are like, say, some outfielders who have shortened their careers by repeatedly running into walls, etc.

I don't know this kid's style other than hearing that he throws. And yes, of course, big moves could lead to concussions. For either wrestler. I've seen wrestlers knock themselves out if they miss the throw and end up going head first to the mat themselves. That isn't as likely to happen hitting snag singles.

As to Sayers- he didn't have knee injuries going into his pro career. You don't like the term wild? Doesn't matter to the point. It was pretty well known at the time that his style led to an increased likelihood of injury.

http://www.bearshistory.com/lore/galesayers.aspx

Specifically- But on November 10th, the Comet's patented running style came back to haunt him. After taking a pitch from quarterback Virgil Carter, Sayers was making one of his patented stop-on-a-dime cuts, when 49er cornerback Kermit Alexander drove devastatingly into the running backs' right knee. The Bears star tore all the ligaments in that knee, and was done for the rest of the season.

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23 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

I don't know this kid's style other than hearing that he throws. And yes, of course, big moves could lead to concussions. For either wrestler. I've seen wrestlers knock themselves out if they miss the throw and end up going head first to the mat themselves. That isn't as likely to happen hitting snag singles.

As to Sayers- he didn't have knee injuries going into his pro career. You don't like the term wild? Doesn't matter to the point. It was pretty well known at the time that his style led to an increased likelihood of injury.

http://www.bearshistory.com/lore/galesayers.aspx

Specifically- But on November 10th, the Comet's patented running style came back to haunt him. After taking a pitch from quarterback Virgil Carter, Sayers was making one of his patented stop-on-a-dime cuts, when 49er cornerback Kermit Alexander drove devastatingly into the running backs' right knee. The Bears star tore all the ligaments in that knee, and was done for the rest of the season.

Big moves could lead to concussions just like single legs where the attacking wrestler gets kneed in the head.  I'm not aware of Gomez's issues being attributable to his style. 

I don't see the pasted excerpt standing for the proposition that it was well known that Sayers injury resulted from his style. It says that he got hurt on a cut, which happens all the time to running backs. The writer simply threw in rhetorical flair in a fawning piece about Sayers that described the cut as patented.  In this case the more well known explanation that you'll see in the literature was that the defender did a roll tackle which was viewed by those who saw it as unusual and particularly dangerous.  The literature also says that many modern running backs get the same injury but have less long term problems because  today's surgery is far less invasive. 

Wrestlers get concussions and running backs get knee injuries.  Sometimes they end careers.  I'm just reacting to the implication (unintended, not saying you meant it that way) that these two guys lost their careers due to choices they made to be aggressive in their approaches, when I don't think there is evidence of that.  

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On 12/29/2020 at 7:05 PM, gimpeltf said:

On the other hand, the concussions might be related to his style. 

Gayle Sayers was among the most exciting runners ever but his wild style of running led to his knee injuries.

Yeah, same reason why Bo Nickal had to retire early due to his style...

 

/s

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On 12/30/2020 at 3:05 AM, gimpeltf said:

I don't know this kid's style other than hearing that he throws. And yes, of course, big moves could lead to concussions. For either wrestler. I've seen wrestlers knock themselves out if they miss the throw and end up going head first to the mat themselves. That isn't as likely to happen hitting snag singles.

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6852466-bader-show-austin-gomez

Gomez:  "The first time...I got kneed right in the temple."

Bader:  "The knee in the temple was the first one, or it was the most recent?"

Gomez:  "Both of them, actually.  They've all...just gotten kneed in the temple.  It's like, they're telling me I keep hitting knee pulls.  Maybe I should have just stopped hitting knee pulls.  Whenever I hit a need pull I was getting hit in the head."

Big moves?  No.  Snag singles/knee pulls?  Yes.  One of the most, if not the most common way to get a concussion is head to knee, as discussed before.  This wrestler didn't ruin his career by his style, wild or otherwise.  

BTW, Gomez came across quite well in describing what happened to him, what he learned about his physical condition, and the choices he was forced to deal with that ended his dreams.  

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5 minutes ago, drag it said:

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6852466-bader-show-austin-gomez

Gomez:  "The first time...I got kneed right in the temple."

Bader:  "The knee in the temple was the first one, or it was the most recent?"

Gomez:  "Both of them, actually.  They've all...just gotten kneed in the temple.  It's like, they're telling me I keep hitting knee pulls.  Maybe I should have just stopped hitting knee pulls.  Whenever I hit a need pull I was getting hit in the head."

Big moves?  No.  Snag singles/knee pulls?  Yes.  One of the most, if not the most common way to get a concussion is head to knee, as discussed before.  This wrestler didn't ruin his career by his style, wild or otherwise.  

BTW, Gomez came across quite well in describing what happened to him, what he learned about his physical condition, and the choices he was forced to deal with that ended his dreams.  

Knee pulls and snag singles are different moves. Check Isaiah Martinez for the one and Lee Kemp for the other. You keep your head on opponent's chest for the snag. Knee doesn't come anywhere near the head. Knee Pulls you dive in towards the knee- hopefully just barely missing it.

The style and apparently the execution was obviously to blame. He admits it. Was it wild or not- maybe not wild per se but ...

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24 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Knee pulls and snag singles are different moves. Check Isaiah Martinez for the one and Lee Kemp for the other. You keep your head on opponent's chest for the snag. Knee doesn't come anywhere near the head. Knee Pulls you dive in towards the knee- hopefully just barely missing it.

The style and apparently the execution was obviously to blame. He admits it. Was it wild or not- maybe not wild per se but ...

Martinez has lectured on how he uses both knee pulls and snatch singles out of the same tie and set up, they're just different finishes, based on what's left for him by his opponent as he executes his bread and butter simple move.  As if the difference between those two leg attacks has any relevance to your repeated assertions that Gomez's "throws" and "big moves" caused his injuries and retirement.

Earlier I said that your implication in blaming him for losing his career based on his choice of style was unintentional.  Obviously that's wrong -- you're intentionally and directly blaming his "style and apparently...execution" for his injuries, which I find objectionable to throw at a battler like him, as he loses out on his dreams, based on pretty much zero evidence other than a self deprecating, joking throw away line in his Bader interview. 

This could have been caused by the guys he was wrestling.  It could have been caused by his innate predisposition to injury.  It could be that both times the whistle blew and he moved his head, or any of a whole list of other flukes.  Head to knee is a common injury, most famously Ness on Dennis in the NCAA final, that has nothing to do with throws, big moves, or other things we should blame the injured wrestler for.  

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ACLs come and go with the wind.  Sometimes they are torn by spectacular collisions and sometimes by stepping off a curb.  Too bad for Gomez, he can light up a scoreboard.  I feel concussions are cumulative so once you are cursed with one, take care.

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1 hour ago, drag it said:

Martinez has lectured on how he uses both knee pulls and snatch singles out of the same tie and set up, they're just different finishes, based on what's left for him by his opponent as he executes his bread and butter simple move.  As if the difference between those two leg attacks has any relevance to your repeated assertions that Gomez's "throws" and "big moves" caused his injuries and retirement.

Earlier I said that your implication in blaming him for losing his career based on his choice of style was unintentional.  Obviously that's wrong -- you're intentionally and directly blaming his "style and apparently...execution" for his injuries, which I find objectionable to throw at a battler like him, as he loses out on his dreams, based on pretty much zero evidence other than a self deprecating, joking throw away line in his Bader interview. 

This could have been caused by the guys he was wrestling.  It could have been caused by his innate predisposition to injury.  It could be that both times the whistle blew and he moved his head, or any of a whole list of other flukes.  Head to knee is a common injury, most famously Ness on Dennis in the NCAA final, that has nothing to do with throws, big moves, or other things we should blame the injured wrestler for.  

I wasn't blaming him per se. Initially I was simply suggesting that sometimes styles and execution can affect you. He said it himself. Maybe he should stop doing knee pulls. And just because two different finishes come from the same tie up doesn't make them the same. And it isn't really the finish that's different, the attack from the tie up is different so the finishes are moot.

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

I wasn't blaming him per se. Initially I was simply suggesting that sometimes styles and execution can affect you. He said it himself. Maybe he should stop doing knee pulls. And just because two different finishes come from the same tie up doesn't make them the same. And it isn't really the finish that's different, the attack from the tie up is different so the finishes are moot.

Got it.  You weren't initially blaming him.  You just were saying that maybe his "big moves" and "throws" had something to do with it.  That was just (erroneous) speculation before we had any details.

Then when Gomez stated the facts, that he got hurt in a common way -- head to knee on leg attacks -- that's when we found out that he was to blame:  "He said it himself" that he caused the end of his own career -- "the style and apparently the execution was obviously to blame." 

Now we know that his bad "execution was obviously to blame" for his forced retirement, based on a throwaway line -- "I don't know, maybe I should stop doing knee pulls" -- that he delivered with a chuckle and a self-deprecating smile.  Of course, the "I don't know" part referred to the fact that we have no idea whether and how the execution on those moves led to injury, since he didn't even know that he had done knee pulls until they explained it to him after he regained consciousness. 

That was a remarkable admission/acceptance of blame by Gomez for something that his concussion caused him to have zero recollection of.  If he ever gets tired of covering wrestling, Bader should get a hair cut, go to law school, and become a star prosecutor.  

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