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tirapell

New Rules Ideas

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Tirapelli: If you want freestyle rules then attend a FS meet. Please don't adopt rules that have driven me (and others) from the international styles. We just had another highly successful, sold out, nationally broadcast championship without resorting to sumo rules, shot clocks, three point lines, etc. Our strength is in our continuity.

 

If you must have a rule change I'd suggest since the refs are obviously unable to call fleeing/stalling make the sanction a (perhaps untimed, as in inserted?) 30 sec go with choice of position. Refs wouldn't be changing outcomes, just opportunities.

 

SaraJones: a counter argument is return to 2 pts for RT, increase incentive to get off bottom. Why risk a tilt if baseing out has no consequence?

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I love the 3 points per takedown (all takedowns) idea.

I would love to see riding time eliminated.

 

What about two 4-minute periods, or one 4-minute period and then one 3-minute period?

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SaraJones: a counter argument is return to 2 pts for RT, increase incentive to get off bottom. Why risk a tilt if baseing out has no consequence?

 

Actually that was discussed as well -- addtional points for additional minutes of riding time. Definitely pros and cons there. We all love the match with 5+ minutes of riding time and no turns.... :roll:

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Tirapelli: If you want freestyle rules then attend a FS meet. Please don't adopt rules that have driven me (and others) from the international styles. We just had another highly successful, sold out, nationally broadcast championship without resorting to sumo rules, shot clocks, three point lines, etc. Our strength is in our continuity.

 

Are you seriously comparing the NCAA's to basketball? Open up the USA Today and you'll see which one is more popular. We sold out 1 arena with $35 tickets. You can probably look on stub-hub to see how many they sold out and it wasn't for $35 either.

 

I don't want to fundamentally alter the sport but analytically I wonder why football can change their rules every year and still remain as popular as ever and yet we keep the same rules for decades and watch popularity dwindle. Seems there might be something to adapting and changing. These are just ideas I heard being discussed. I don't particularly like all of them but I like the fact that people are thinking of ways to drive the sport forward.

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I don't think I'm in favor of increasing scoring for the first takedown. It could potentially create more action at the start of a match, but the flip side is that it would allow a bigger lead to be built up which could create more stalling/defensive wrestling in later periods for the person who is ahead and make comebacks less likely. To make a rhyme out of it: if you front load the scoring, the rest of the match could be boring.

 

Are there any tournaments that experiment with rule changes to see what effect they have? If not, there should be. I'd love to see some experimentation with rule changes in action before deciding what new rules should be adopted.

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I would like to see the Near Fall and Fall rules changed if the shoulders are outside of the circle. If either Wrestler is inside the circle enough to keep the clock running, the Near Fall or Fall should count regardless of the location of the shoulders.

 

The current rule actually promotes the Wrestler in trouble to stay out of bounds rather than battle. He can literally lay flat on his back.

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Are there any tournaments that experiment with rule changes to see what effect they have? If not, there should be. I'd love to see some experimentation with rule changes in action before deciding what new rules should be adopted.

 

Something I've advocated FOREVER!

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Are there any tournaments that experiment with rule changes to see what effect they have? If not, there should be. I'd love to see some experimentation with rule changes in action before deciding what new rules should be adopted.

 

Something I've advocated FOREVER!

 

These are a good idea, although they are not a perfect experiment because wrestlers' training would evolve over time and change the effect of the rules - which could lead to unintended results.

 

I don't think we should ever make wholesale rules changes. Small changes can be tested easier with both live wrestlers and officials.

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Tiripelli: "

Are you seriously comparing the NCAA's to basketball? Open up the USA Today and you'll see which one is more popular. We sold out 1 arena with $35 tickets. You can probably look on stub-hub to see how many they sold out and it wasn't for $35 either."

 

No, I'm comparing current wrestling to wrestling adopting gimmick rules (Ralph Miller said the worst thing to happen to basketball was the 3 pt line).

 

Has football changed how they score? Points for going OB? 4 pt FG's scored from 50 yards or more? 10 pt for first TD?

 

Are we chasing excitement for TV watching, non wrestling fan? or are we trying to get the current rules enforced properly to get the current inherent excitement punctuated by a bit more activity (not necessarily scoring)? Are we trying to grow the sport, or alter it to appeal to soccer mom and Monday morning QB (see: Olympic wrestling...)?

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We could go back to the origination of wrestling. Think about it, the only rule at the beginning was pinning your opponent...untimed. Somewhere along the way, people thought rules might make it more appealing -- time limits, periods, scoring points, choice of position, etc.

 

So we shouldn't act like we've maintained the original sport throughout time. It has always adapted, sometimes at a snail's pace but it has changed.

 

Of all the rules suggested, my personal likes are allowing near fall and falls to be scored out of bounds as well. Make the mat bigger and it's a simple change, easily adoptable. I also like some form of semi-objective penalty for leaving the mat area not under duress. We already have a stall call for using the out-of-bounds to get out of holds. But we don't have a penalty for using the out-of-bounds before you get into danger, which is kind of mind boggling really. Maybe in it's simplest form, we just hit a guy for stalling every time he goes off the mat without a legitmate attempt to fight back on. Or, maybe it's a stall call regardless and thus, you better make use of the center of the mat.

 

Either way, these two rules wouldn't dramatically alter the fundamental core of wrestling. They might however help us decide a match like the 174lbs finals before the 30/30 Tiebreaker round and having to watch 8 minutes of little to no activity.

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Some rules that were being discussed to continue to push the sport forward. Just wondered what others thoughts are. Before you say "let's keep everything the same", think about the match with Perry/Brown at 174 in the finals to start off our ESPN broadcast. Like other sports, I think we have to continue to look for ways to improve wrestling while not losing the core of the sport.

 

Stalling has become an epidemic at the college level.. I would like to see stalling called if the wrestler stays on one knee for at least 10 seconds. Two knees after 5 seconds.

 

The pushout rule would be very helpful also. BTW, yes, I think Jesse D did some stalling later in his matches but most of his backing up is to set up his shots. He's wrestled that way since he was a little guy.

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Get rid of riding time and riding bonus point. I want to see these guys wrestle not stall their way through a championship. I saw to much of this year at National Duals, Big Ten and NCAA Championships!

 

Riding IS wrestling.

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Are there any tournaments that experiment with rule changes to see what effect they have? If not, there should be. I'd love to see some experimentation with rule changes in action before deciding what new rules should be adopted.

 

Something I've advocated FOREVER!

 

These are a good idea, although they are not a perfect experiment because wrestlers' training would evolve over time and change the effect of the rules - which could lead to unintended results.

 

I don't think we should ever make wholesale rules changes. Small changes can be tested easier with both live wrestlers and officials.

 

Good point about the long-term effects of the rules being unknowable. Having said that, some data is better than none. A series of test tournaments for rules changes (with statistics measuring things like elapsed time per match, time spent on the mat vs. the feet, points per minute, etc.) would be a great idea, and very easy to implement.

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​Get rid of riding time. Call stalling, every 20 seconds without a shot or attempt to improve=stalling. Push out rule. All takedowns=3 points. Automatic tech fall if you get a guy in a spladle.

And miss out on all those photo shop opportunities?

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Or, maybe it's a stall call regardless and thus, you better make use of the center of the mat.

 

Sounds good to me. They tried to alter the stalling rules regarding out of bounds, and the points of emphasis were unenforceable.

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Stalling has not gotten epidemic. I have been going to college wrestling since the late 60s, and it did get pretty epidemic in the late 70s and 80s. There have been several subtle rule changes over the years, and styles have evolved, and the last decade or so have been much more dynamic. Can it become more dynamic? Absolutely. Some more subtle rule changes, can perhaps do that. It's good to toss ideas around, because something may stick. But whatever changes you make, when the bright lights are on, and the biggest prize of all, is on the line, you will always have some guys tighten up, and play whatever defense the rules allow, trying not to lose the big bout on a mistake. Especially when you may have a highly dominant wrestler. Sometimes the only hope a severe underdog has, is to try to keep it close, and hope for an opportunity near the end. Wrestling is not losing fans. All of our biggest attendance figures for both the tournament and duals, have been in more recent times. Coverage wouldn't be expanding every year, if they weren't getting eyeballs tuning in.

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"Good point about the long-term effects of the rules being unknowable. Having said that, some data is better than none. A series of test tournaments for rules changes (with statistics measuring things like elapsed time per match, time spent on the mat vs. the feet, points per minute, etc.) would be a great idea, and very easy to implement.

I'm not concerned about points/minute. Activity = excitement. Contrived scoring = disinterest (at least for me).

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Or, maybe it's a stall call regardless and thus, you better make use of the center of the mat.

 

Sounds good to me. They tried to alter the stalling rules regarding out of bounds, and the points of emphasis were unenforceable.

That wouldn't be a "stall" call. It would be an obligatory step out call.

 

You didn't like my idea of allowing the ref to call stalling and giving positional choice as the penalty (down with no RT for :30 . top with RT ?) It would relieve the ref of the concern about "changing the outcome", even though that potential is the intent of the rule if stalling continues.

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On the fence about the pushout rule. Two issues I see:

 

1. Should not allow the guy backing up to score cheap points by playing matador defense. "You shoot, I score by pushout" seems counterproductive.

 

2. If I shoot and have a clear opportunity to finish inbounds, then should I get a point for carrying the opponent out? Not talking about when momentum carries both guys out -- talking about when one guy is hopping on one leg, or is lifted off the mat with a double, and the shooter doesn't attempt to finish the takedown.

 

I could definitely see scenario #2 above happening at the end of a close match, when the opponent is a good scrambler like a Welch. If you only need one point to win, why risk the scramble if you can just carry the guy out?

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Wrestling's goal is about pinning, not the take down, I always thought 30 seconds in each position should be 1st and if still tied, go unlimited time sudden victory from the feet, at least it gives mat wrestlers a chance to do their thing and if you like to wrestle from your feet, cut him and give it a go.

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Allow throws. All throws are 1 point. For example:

 

Takedown (no throw) = 2 points

Takedown w/ throw = 2+1 = 3 points

Throw (no takedown) = 1 point

 

What got me thinking about this are Kyle Dake's mat returns. Those aggressive mat returns are exciting to watch and should perhaps be scored. If throws were 1 point, it would encourage even more aggressive mat returns (throws) and lead to higher scoring, more exciting matches.

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