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Michigan shutting down for 2 weeks

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20 hours ago, dman115 said:

So by your "logic"...let's use even the extreme case based on what you think in that if all 400,000 have died because they got Covid (and for no other reason other than Covid), that is equal to 0.1% of the total US population...while tragic and sad...that is ABSOLUTELY the very very very minority is it not??   How much have suicides increased since the pandemic?  How much has people with drug and alcohol increase since the pandemic?  How many people have lost their livelihood?  

I wonder if anyone has died, or "more damaging then dying" from Covid by staying home and avoiding the risk of getting Covid???

Why do people try to make the disclaimer that if someone had an underlying condition, we don’t need to think of it as a Covid death? 
 

my father had underlying conditions. He got real real sick, we’re still trying to figure out how he survived. But my point is this, before Covid, he was healthy and productive with his underlying conditions.  Then he got sick. He survived,  but he’s never going to be the same than before Covid. 
 

But since he had underlying conditions, that doesn’t count? And I don’t give a crap about numbers, I’m talking about what does and does not factor in to our decisions. People with underlying conditions absolutely ‘count’. 

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Why do people try to make the disclaimer that if someone had an underlying condition, we don’t need to think of it as a Covid death? 
 

my father had underlying conditions. He got real real sick, we’re still trying to figure out how he survived. But my point is this, before Covid, he was healthy and productive with his underlying conditions.  Then he got sick. He survived,  but he’s never going to be the same than before Covid. 
 

But since he had underlying conditions, that doesn’t count? And I don’t give a crap about numbers, I’m talking about what does and does not factor in to our decisions. People with underlying conditions absolutely ‘count’. 

That is a great question/topic for discussion...I often wonder why we treat Covid so much different than any other virus...ever??  We have never counted deaths the way we count them with Covid...I have never heard a good explanation other than, "well more than likely they wouldn't have died had they not gotten Covid".  Which isn't true in a lot of cases.  And given that it may be true...shouldn't that hold true for the common flu?  A common cold?  Pneumonia (which is usually a bacteria)?  What about SARs?  I am not so ignorant to not understand that all those virus and ailments are different, but it still begs the question, that again I have never seen answered anywhere (CDC, WHO, virology sites, etc.), why we document every death for those with underlining conditions, whether they were potentially going to pass away anyway or not, as co-morbidity with Covid.  There is no data out there that shows how many deaths were from JUST Covid...again...why??  If I am some sort of selfish monster because I want those questions answered then so be it, as I will not sit here and let a virus that was turned into a political weapon by so many people go without questioning...it is scary that so many people do just go along with things without question.

Anyway, I am VERY happy to hear that your dad made it through.  My dad got pretty sick and I was worried about him but he made it through as well.  I understand this is a nasty virus to a certain demographic.

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2 minutes ago, dman115 said:

That is a great question/topic for discussion...I often wonder why we treat Covid so much different than any other virus...ever??  We have never counted deaths the way we count them with Covid...I have never heard a good explanation other than, "well more than likely they wouldn't have died had they not gotten Covid".  Which isn't true in a lot of cases.  And given that it may be true...shouldn't that hold true for the common flu?  A common cold?  Pneumonia (which is usually a bacteria)?  What about SARs?  I am not so ignorant to not understand that all those virus and ailments are different, but it still begs the question, that again I have never seen answered anywhere (CDC, WHO, virology sites, etc.), why we document every death for those with underlining conditions, whether they were potentially going to pass away anyway or not, as co-morbidity with Covid.  There is no data out there that shows how many deaths were from JUST Covid...again...why??  If I am some sort of selfish monster because I want those questions answered then so be it, as I will not sit here and let a virus that was turned into a political weapon by so many people go without questioning...it is scary that so many people do just go along with things without question.

Anyway, I am VERY happy to hear that your dad made it through.  My dad got pretty sick and I was worried about him but he made it through as well.  I understand this is a nasty virus to a certain demographic.

Why?  It is absurdly obvious.  To politicize the deaths.  That is to say, muddy the waters, minimize the impact of the disease and the incompetence of our response to it.

Your understanding that there is no data to show covid only deaths is mistaken.  There is plenty of data.  One of which is a CDC direct comparison of the number of expected deaths and number of actual deaths over the last year.  That number easily exceeds the official numbers attributed to COVID.

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7 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Why?  It is absurdly obvious.  To politicize the deaths.  That is to say, muddy the waters, minimize the impact of the disease and the incompetence of our response to it.

Your understanding that there is no data to show covid only deaths is mistaken.  There is plenty of data.  One of which is a CDC direct comparison of the number of expected deaths and number of actual deaths over the last year.  That number easily exceeds the official numbers attributed to COVID.

but wouldn't this put the increase in suicide, cancer (from reduced treatment), etc deaths in the excess category thus suggesting due to covid?

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8 minutes ago, ionel said:

but wouldn't this put the increase in suicide, cancer (from reduced treatment), etc deaths in the excess category thus suggesting due to covid?

I'd like to see those numbers.  Please post.

Sure, the excess deaths statistics is inexact with respect to a specific cause of death. The magnitude is consistent with official numbers and represents a completely different mechanism of arriving at the same answer.  In short, both are a fair representation of truth.

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27 minutes ago, ionel said:

but wouldn't this put the increase in suicide, cancer (from reduced treatment), etc deaths in the excess category thus suggesting due to covid?

He didn't say all of the excess excess deaths were covid. But to even account for all of those (well over 100k above known covid back in November) the number of suicides from last year would have had to have increased by around 150% as the 2019 numbers were around 70k. And, in a sense, they are covid related.

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

He didn't say all of the excess excess deaths were covid. But to even account for all of those (well over 100k above known covid back in November) the number of suicides from last year would have had to have increased by around 150% as the 2019 numbers were around 70k. And, in a sense, they are covid related.

so the school district example I posted that saw double the suicides with kids staying home (not in school) is "in a sense" due to covid, therefore kids should not go back to school because suicide deaths from staying home (due to covid) has double, got it.  ;_;

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

That is a great question/topic for discussion...I often wonder why we treat Covid so much different than any other virus...ever??  We have never counted deaths the way we count them with Covid...I have never heard a good explanation other than, "well more than likely they wouldn't have died had they not gotten Covid".  Which isn't true in a lot of cases.  And given that it may be true...shouldn't that hold true for the common flu?  A common cold?  Pneumonia (which is usually a bacteria)?  What about SARs?  I am not so ignorant to not understand that all those virus and ailments are different, but it still begs the question, that again I have never seen answered anywhere (CDC, WHO, virology sites, etc.), why we document every death for those with underlining conditions, whether they were potentially going to pass away anyway or not, as co-morbidity with Covid.  There is no data out there that shows how many deaths were from JUST Covid...again...why??  If I am some sort of selfish monster because I want those questions answered then so be it, as I will not sit here and let a virus that was turned into a political weapon by so many people go without questioning...it is scary that so many people do just go along with things without question.

Anyway, I am VERY happy to hear that your dad made it through.  My dad got pretty sick and I was worried about him but he made it through as well.  I understand this is a nasty virus to a certain demographic.

There’s plenty of data that shows the breakdown of covid deaths with age, underlying conditions, etc. The information is out there. There’s also plenty of evidence out there that this disease is far more fatal to those conditions. 

If you truly want those questions answered, the information is out there. 

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4 hours ago, dman115 said:

ionel...it isn't about them...those kids are just being selfish...it should be about the people who don't want to risk it...don't you care??

Not that you give a f***...

 

Quote

 

Another CDC report, also published on Tuesday, described two December high school wrestling tournaments in Florida where 30 percent of the 130 athletes, coaches and referees who participated were then diagnosed with the virus. The actual rates might be higher, the report noted, as fewer than half the participants were tested.

After the tournaments, testing was conducted among the 95 people in close contact with the infected tournament participants, and found 43 percent of them tested positive. One person, an adult over age 50, died.

Wrestling, the report noted, is an activity where distancing is not possible and wearing masks is not safe.

 

Just a coincidence that all these infected individuals happened to be at these wrestling tournaments, right?  But, hey, they made a choice, as I'm sure those 40-odd contacts who also became infected made that choice, right?  

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2 hours ago, ionel said:

so the school district example I posted that saw double the suicides with kids staying home (not in school) is "in a sense" due to covid, therefore kids should not go back to school because suicide deaths from staying home (due to covid) has double, got it.  ;_;

Huh? Wow! Where did you come up with that interpretation? Having a bad day?

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Huh? Wow! Where did you come up with that interpretation? Having a bad day?

In my opinion the suicide issue goes well beyond covid and school shut downs. A growing problem way before last year. 
Coping skills...    Needss to be addressed in a big way. 

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13 minutes ago, Lurker said:

In my opinion the suicide issue goes well beyond covid and school shut downs. A growing problem way before last year. 
Coping skills...    Needss to be addressed in a big way. 

Of course but his putting words in my mouth had nothing to do with how many people died of or from Covid. I wasn't suggesting that you actually count them in the Johns Hopkins numbers just that we need to figure out why all these extra people died. And then he rambled further to say something about using those numbers to decide to shut down again. The restrictions normally come from case counts and hospitalizations anyway and that isn't affected by this. Obviously, the people smarter than him would understand this and take that stat into account.

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Of course but his putting words in my mouth had nothing to do with how many people died of or from Covid. I wasn't suggesting that you actually count them in the Johns Hopkins numbers just that we need to figure out why all these extra people died. And then he rambled further to say something about using those numbers to decide to shut down again. The restrictions normally come from case counts and hospitalizations anyway and that isn't affected by this. Obviously, the people smarter than him would understand this and take that stat into account.

Sorry, I wasn’t necessarily quoting you and contradictory or anything like that, was just posting a thought on the suicide issue. Probably would have been better served not quoting a post...

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14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Sorry, I wasn’t necessarily quoting you and contradictory or anything like that, was just posting a thought on the suicide issue. Probably would have been better served not quoting a post...

I actually, didn't take it that way at all. I guess I did the same thing making you think that by quoting you.

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