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IronChef

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42 minutes ago, IronChef said:

Spencer Lee's name should not come up in this discussion. Wins from two seasons ago should have limited value to begin with. Wins from two seasons ago and two weight classes down should have even less.

I disagree.  Wins are demonstrations of skill, and there may be no better overall wrestler in college than Spencer Lee.  I would diminish them in value because of the time, though.  Like I said, my rankings would be 1.  Lee, 2. Eierman, 3.  Rivera.

Now if you were to ask me to predict, I think I would pick Rivera.  But it's about matchups.  The way I see it right now is Lee beats Eierman who beats Rivera who beats Lee.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I disagree.  Wins are demonstrations of skill, and there may be no better overall wrestler in college than Spencer Lee.  I would diminish them in value because of the time, though.  Like I said, my rankings would be 1.  Lee, 2. Eierman, 3.  Rivera.

Now if you were to ask me to predict, I think I would pick Rivera.  But it's about matchups.  The way I see it right now is Lee beats Eierman who beats Rivera who beats Lee.

Well Eierman and Lee should meet, if the Iowa-PSU dual happens.  If that does happen I expect the winner to get the #1 seed.  Rivera would get the 2, if he beats a very game Red.

Meaning in your scenario Lee gets the 1 seed at B1Gs, Rivera the 2. Eierman then beats Rivera setting up an Eierman-Lee rematch jn the finals.

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11 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The Eirman win is from Dec. 2017, and he then lost 3x to Yianni. And if anyone is going to mention Yianni then they should also mention he decided to not wrestle Lee for 3rd at the US Open after Lee drummed Eirman.  

Impressive that you've managed to somehow bend this conversation back to a consolation forfeit (as if Yianni is afraid of Nick Lee lol). Your powers are unmatched, TBar.

I have no problem with Lee ranked first. I think he's going to win the weight personally. Really depends on how you want to value results. Eierman owns the only folkstyle head to head and is tied with Rivera for the highest NCAA placing with 3rd. I think the most conventional ranking is probably 1)Eierman 2)Lee 3)Rivera. If you want to count freestyle, that probably pushes things towards Lee with the most recent hth, but Eierman also holds freestyle wins over Steiber and Khinch, so where do you want to draw the line?

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12 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I disagree.  Wins are demonstrations of skill, and there may be no better overall wrestler in college than Spencer Lee.  I would diminish them in value because of the time, though.  Like I said, my rankings would be 1.  Lee, 2. Eierman, 3.  Rivera.

Now if you were to ask me to predict, I think I would pick Rivera.  But it's about matchups.  The way I see it right now is Lee beats Eierman who beats Rivera who beats Lee.

I'm curious why you think Eierman beats Rivera. I haven't thought about it a whole lot. Is there something in Rivera's game you think favors Eierman?

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5 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I'm curious why you think Eierman beats Rivera. I haven't thought about it a whole lot. Is there something in Rivera's game you think favors Eierman?

Couple of things:  I think Eierman is big at the weight and Rivera is not.  I think Rivera gets some cushion from most guys with his athleticism, but I think Eierman at least matches him there.  And when you're giving up size and length against a cradler, I think that's bad news.  Gross was a bit gassed at the end of both of their matches.  Eierman will not be.

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18 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Impressive that you've managed to somehow bend this conversation back to a consolation forfeit (as if Yianni is afraid of Nick Lee lol). Your powers are unmatched, TBar.

I have no problem with Lee ranked first. I think he's going to win the weight personally. Really depends on how you want to value results. Eierman owns the only folkstyle head to head and is tied with Rivera for the highest NCAA placing with 3rd. I think the most conventional ranking is probably 1)Eierman 2)Lee 3)Rivera. If you want to count freestyle, that probably pushes things towards Lee with the most recent hth, but Eierman also holds freestyle wins over Steiber and Khinch, so where do you want to draw the line?

Lol. It took a lot of rationalizing the other way to get me to write that. Plus you totally ignored my point that Eireman's win over Yianno happened 3+ years ago. Glossed right over that. Then you want to take out Spencer Lee's name from this thread. You are as partisan as anyone else. Personally, I think every available data point means something. How much is in the eye of the beholder. 

Edited by TBar1977

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8 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Couple of things:  I think Eierman is big at the weight and Rivera is not.  I think Rivera gets some cushion from most guys with his athleticism, but I think Eierman at least matches him there.  And when you're giving up size and length against a cradler, I think that's bad news.  Gross was a bit gassed at the end of both of their matches.  Eierman will not be.

After more thought, mat wrestling could be big too. Rivera has been ridden by leg riders a couple times.

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Lol. But you want to take out Spencer Lee's name from this thread. You are as partisan as anyone else. Personally, I think every available data point means something. How much is in the eye of the beholder. 

I'm not sure why you think I'm biased against Nick Lee considering I picked him to win. And yes I agree about the results. I think Eierman's ncaa result against Lee is more valuable than Rivera's results against Lee because it's at the correct weight. Doesn't mean I think the Lee wins are meaningless.

What is meaningless is a medical forfeit on the backside of a freestyle tournament.

Edited by uncle bernard

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9 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I'm not sure why you think I'm biased against Nick Lee considering I picked him to win. And yes I agree about the results. I think Eierman's ncaa result against Lee is more valuable than Rivera's results against Lee because it's at the correct weight. Doesn't mean I think the Lee wins are meaningless.

What is meaningless is a medical forfeit on the backside of a freestyle tournament.

What I think you are doing is favoring your ranking argument towards Eireman with negative comments here and there that can easily be turned around on him. I'll provide an example.

And medical forfeit? I guess if the book says it is so then it is so. 

 

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

It's at least at the weight.

The other thing to consider, although it's hard to do if you want to strictly limit yourself to "results," is that all 3 of Rivera's big wins were over dominant guys during the their worst season (not counting Gross's year at 141). Spencer was struggling big time by his standards and Gross was much better during his previous 2 years at 133.

Ok, Eireman's big win came in Yianni's worst season, and it also came 3+ years ago. He's 0-3 against him since. Where is that commentary? Once you implore others to consider Rivera's best wins to have come against guys in their worst seasons, thus discounting those wins, to stay consistent you have to reasonably do the same for Eireman. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Just now, TBar1977 said:

What I think you are doing is favoring your ranking argument towards Eireman with negative comments here and there that can easily be turned around on him. I'll provide an example.

 

Ok, Eireman's big win came in Yianni's worst season. He's 0-3 against him since. Where is that commentary? 

I've said I don't think there's a right answer for number 1 between Lee and Eierman. If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably go Lee, but I understand why most rankings sites aren't counting a freestyle win.

Yianni's freshman year was pretty much on par with his sophomore year. 1 loss vs. 0 losses. There was a very noticeable decline in the performances of Lee and Gross during the stretch Rivera beat them. And tbh, the Yianni win really isn't a part of my calculation for Eierman. The two things he has on Lee is the hth and NCAA placings. Lee was obviously robbed of a possible title last year and controlled Eierman the last time they wrestled, so that helps his argument.

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18 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The beholder. 

I'm not allergic or nuffin but I tend to not hold the bees.  It's like ripping their sphincters clear off when they sting you.  Poor ladies..

Edited by nhs67

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All three are aiming for an Olympic spot and look to be ahead of the rest of the field at 141 in folk so does it really matter where they are ranked/ seeded in a domestic age group tourney? A + B meet in the semis, winner meets C in the finals and the cream rises to the top ez peezy

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1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

All three are aiming for an Olympic spot and look to be ahead of the rest of the field at 141 in folk so does it really matter where they are ranked/ seeded in a domestic age group tourney? A + B meet in the semis, winner meets C in the finals and the cream rises to the top ez peezy

As stated above, I think it very much matters, lol.  One guy will only have to go thru one of the others.  Here's hoping it's Eierman!

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2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

All three are aiming for an Olympic spot and look to be ahead of the rest of the field at 141 in folk so does it really matter where they are ranked/ seeded in a domestic age group tourney? A + B meet in the semis, winner meets C in the finals and the cream rises to the top ez peezy

Actually...

Rivera is aiming to be Puerto Rico's 65 kegger.  Big difference in gaining that spot there.

As it pertains to NCAA it also matters.  Rovers will likely have to beat both to win B1Gs.  Lee and Eierman should face each other.  The winner will likely get the 1 seed.

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3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

As stated above, I think it very much matters, lol.  One guy will only have to go thru one of the others.  Here's hoping it's Eierman!

Eierman will have the momentum, unless the dual starts at 141.

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13 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

As stated above, I think it very much matters, lol.  One guy will only have to go thru one of the others.  Here's hoping it's Eierman!

My point is that if they are as world-level good as they think, then the same old mentality exists that it doesn't matter who you wrestle because there are significantly tougher opponents a few months later. At the Olympics you don't get to pick brackets you just have to beat the guy in front of you.

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1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

Man.  Imagine if Iowa pulled the ole switcheroo on us and threw Desanto out at 125 and Lee at 133.

I would love to see Lee/RBY and literally no outcome by either guy ranging from first period pin to rideouts would shock me in the slightest

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5 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

My point is that if they are as world-level good as they think, then the same old mentality exists that it doesn't matter who you wrestle because there are significantly tougher opponents a few months later. At the Olympics you don't get to pick brackets you just have to beat the guy in front of you.

Why are you talking about the olympics?

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Just now, bnwtwg said:

I would love to see Lee/RBY and literally no outcome by either guy ranging from first period pin to rideouts would shock me in the slightest

There was something on FRL a week or two ago where they asked how high up could Lee win a title.

I think he could win 141 if he were to weigh in at 130lbs and bump up.  I think in a tournament style it gets tougher after that, but 1v1 I do believe he does well all the way up to 157 until he runs into Deakin/Hidlay.

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Just now, uncle bernard said:

Why are you talking about the olympics?

Eierman - OlyRS, Lee - lightened load to peak at OTT, Rivera - PR OTT. If they think they are good enough to compete with global elites then they should literally not give two hoots about NCAA rankings and neither should we. We all get to enjoy the competition and let the chips fall where they may.

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47 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

My point is that if they are as world-level good as they think, then the same old mentality exists that it doesn't matter who you wrestle because there are significantly tougher opponents a few months later. At the Olympics you don't get to pick brackets you just have to beat the guy in front of you.

WHo said they care?  I care.

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39 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Eierman - OlyRS, Lee - lightened load to peak at OTT, Rivera - PR OTT. If they think they are good enough to compete with global elites then they should literally not give two hoots about NCAA rankings and neither should we. We all get to enjoy the competition and let the chips fall where they may.

Well I'm sure they don't, but we're wrestling fans and this is a wrestling forum. These are the things we're supposed to enjoy discussing lol. If you just want to sit back and watch, why are you here?

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