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Disagreeing with somebody is not the same thing as dismissing them.  Just because he's not changing his rankings because of some message board posts doesn't mean he's dismissing anybody.  He's on here politely giving his reasoning and has been met with pretty open dismissiveness and hostility.
Anyway, as previously stated, I didn't see any Penn State fans complaining when Bo was given the #1 197 ranking when he moved up.

He was also a two time national champion. Three time finalist.

Sebastian Rivera, for example, is a zero time national champion. Why is he ranked ahead of Eierman or Lee?


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1 minute ago, Le duke said:


He was also a two time national champion. Three time finalist.

Sebastian Rivera, for example, is a zero time national champion. Why is he ranked ahead of Eierman or Lee?


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Because he, arguably, has a better resume considering quality of wins/construction of weight classes.  I've said in this thread that I would not rank Rivera #1, but it's really easy to see the argument, I just don't agree with it.  I would rank it 1.  Lee, 2.  Eierman, and 3.  Rivera.

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2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Because he, arguably, has a better resume considering quality of wins/construction of weight classes.  I've said in this thread that I would not rank Rivera #1, but it's really easy to see the argument, I just don't agree with it.  I would rank it 1.  Lee, 2.  Eierman, and 3.  Rivera.

Yes, a thoughtful post.  That’s new on this board.

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3 hours ago, portajohn said:

I have absolutely no hostility towards Spey. But he still cannot answer how he has Hidlay ranked ahead DePerez despite the fact that DePerez beat Hidlay last time they wrestled and they have comparable resumes in quality wins. I think it's pretty fair to question him on that

First it was about Amine, then it was about Brooks. Now you demand answers about Hidlay and Deprez. It's almost like you aren't really interested in the discussion beyond getting attention and monopolizing someone else's time. 

I will answer your question on Who's #1 the Show. You may ask more me questions on this message board if you like, but I will only answer them on WNOtS. Thank you for your interest in Flo's rankings, even if you never click on the website or engage with any of our social media. 

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3 hours ago, Le duke said:


He was also a two time national champion. Three time finalist.

Sebastian Rivera, for example, is a zero time national champion. Why is he ranked ahead of Eierman or Lee?
 

why would you you bring up ncaa titles as ranking criteria for 141 when neither Eierman nor Lee have any?

the reason Bo Nickal was ranked #1 was not specifically because he was a 2X champ 3X finalist, it was because he had a better resume than everyone else in the weight class, the same way Rivera's rank was determined. 

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12 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

why would you you bring up ncaa titles as ranking criteria for 141 when neither Eierman nor Lee have any?

the reason Bo Nickal was ranked #1 was not specifically because he was a 2X champ 3X finalist, it was because he had a better resume than everyone else in the weight class, the same way Rivera's rank was determined. 

Just curious, are you factoring in Rivera’s wins over Spencer Lee in putting him #1?  (Despite that being 2 weight classes lower and Lee winning the weight that year and Rivera losing to someone else at NCAA’s).

If we’re talking “resumes” though, it’s Eierman and it’s not really close.  5-4-3 at NCAA’s at the weight in question, the only person to ever beat Yianni in college, and wins over 3 NC’s at the weight in question (Yianni, Ashnault, Heil).

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Just curious, are you factoring in Rivera’s wins over Spencer Lee in putting him #1?  (Despite that being 2 weight classes lower and Lee winning the weight that year and Rivera losing to someone else at NCAA’s).

If we’re talking “resumes” though, it’s Eierman and it’s not really close.  5-4-3 at NCAA’s at the weight in question, the only person to ever beat Yianni in college, and wins over 3 NC’s at the weight in question (Yianni, Ashnault, Heil).

Rivera at #1 isn’t clear cut, and Flo has acknowledged that. 
  
Personally, I think Eierman, then Lee, then Rivera. 
  
Eierman beat Lee in their last matchup. Granted that was almost 3 years ago. 
 
Eierman’s wins are comparable to Rivera, but at 141. I think the tie breaker goes to the weight class.

Eierman’s only random blemish was vs Alber, do I don’t think the consistency argument holds water for Eierman in folkstyle. 

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It's logically inconsistent to argue that you're ok with Rivera being ranked 3rd but not first.  If his body of work is good enough to be ranked third, it's good enough to be ranked first in a weight class without a clear cut dominant force up top, or even a returning NCAA champ.  He doesn't HAVE to be first, but if the body of work is good enough to be third in this weight, it's good enough to be first.  If your position is he can't be first because his body of work doesn't really matter because it's a different weight, than you should be arguing he should have started the year unranked.

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35 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

It's logically inconsistent to argue that you're ok with Rivera being ranked 3rd but not first.  If his body of work is good enough to be ranked third, it's good enough to be ranked first in a weight class without a clear cut dominant force up top, or even a returning NCAA champ.  He doesn't HAVE to be first, but if the body of work is good enough to be third in this weight, it's good enough to be first.  If your position is he can't be first because his body of work doesn't really matter because it's a different weight, than you should be arguing he should have started the year unranked.

I disagree.    No, there wasn't a clear cut dominant force up top --- there were 2.    Obviously no one knows what would have happened at NCAA's last year, but going into them Lee & Pletcher were the clear cut #1 and 2 having only lost to each other.   Yes Demas beat Lee in 2019 but Demas had 4 losses last year.    In a sense Eierman benefits from not wrestling last year because he couldn't take any bad losses, but the last time we saw him in folkstyle he took 3rd in NCAA's only losing to Yianni (who btw he holds the only win against).

Everyone below Lee & Eierman has taken a bunch of losses.  #4 didn't even win the MAC last year.  I think it's perfectly fine to put Rivera at 3.

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I disagree.    No, there wasn't a clear cut dominant force up top --- there were 2.    Obviously no one knows what would have happened at NCAA's last year, but going into them Lee & Pletcher were the clear cut #1 and 2 having only lost to each other.   Yes Demas beat Lee in 2019 but Demas had 4 losses last year.    In a sense Eierman benefits from not wrestling last year because he couldn't take any bad losses, but the last time we saw him in folkstyle he took 3rd in NCAA's only losing to Yianni (who btw he holds the only win against).
Everyone below Lee & Eierman has taken a bunch of losses.  #4 didn't even win the MAC last year.  I think it's perfectly fine to put Rivera at 3.
You're acting like upsets never happen at the NCAAs. People who look great lose all the time. You can't just give Lee a title. Eierman's last competition year also has the loss to Alber and many close matches. Lee also had a couple of close wins last year like Dresden Simon and Sal Profaci. You're giving Eierman and Lee credit for status they haven't earned on the mat. They're both worthy number 1s, but so is Rivera. They are not dominant forces. They're not Yianni.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're acting like upsets never happen at the NCAAs. People who look great lose all the time. You can't just give Lee a title. Eierman's last competition year also has the loss to Alber and many close matches. Lee also had a couple of close wins last year like Dresden Simon and Sal Profaci. You're giving Eierman and Lee credit for status they haven't earned on the mat. They're both worthy number 1s, but so is Rivera. They are not dominant forces. They're not Yianni.

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Well Eierman has beaten Yianni...

I'm not giving Lee a title, I'm basing my opinion on the matches that were actually wrestled.   Lee's only loss last year was to Pletcher.   His only loss in 2019 to someone still wrestling was Demas, but Demas has since taken a bunch of losses both in 2020 and already one in 2021.

Besides, my last post was more to your devil's advocate argument of not ranking Rivera at all.   I don't see anything wrong with putting him at #3 because everyone besides Lee & Eierman have taken a bunch of losses.   I think Eierman has a better "resume" than Rivera regardless of weight.   Factor that in and it's a no-brainer.    Rivera probably has a similar resume to Lee regardless of weight, but factor that in and I think Lee needs the edge.

 

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20 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well Eierman has beaten Yianni...

I'm not giving Lee a title, I'm basing my opinion on the matches that were actually wrestled.   Lee's only loss last year was to Pletcher.   His only loss in 2019 to someone still wrestling was Demas, but Demas has since taken a bunch of losses both in 2020 and already one in 2021.

Besides, my last post was more to your devil's advocate argument of not ranking Rivera at all.   I don't see anything wrong with putting him at #3 because everyone besides Lee & Eierman have taken a bunch of losses.   I think Eierman has a better "resume" than Rivera regardless of weight.   Factor that in and it's a no-brainer.    Rivera probably has a similar resume to Lee regardless of weight, but factor that in and I think Lee needs the edge.

 

Eierman has a similar resume to Rivera, at best.  His best win is obviously Yianni, which he has lost the subsequent rematches.  He has the loss to Alber during his most recent NCAA season, worse than any loss Rivera has had since his freshman year.  Rivera has the same highest placement.  He has better career wins (twice beating Spencer Lee, once over Seth Gross) vs. Eierman's best career win (Yianni).  After that, their career wins are roughly equivalent, Eierman beating the worst version of Dean Heil (the year he didn't place), Rivera beating the best version of Roman Bravo Young, etc.

None of these three have a clear cut advantage over each other in terms of resume, to me, though I would favor Rivera's career.  As I've said, I would go Lee, Eierman, Rivera in that order, but any mixture of the three would be fine by me.  But people are acting as if Lee and Eierman have had careers that they have not had.  I say this as an Iowa fan!  Remember, I'm rooting for Eierman to win!

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4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Eierman has a similar resume to Rivera, at best.  His best win is obviously Yianni, which he has lost the subsequent rematches.  He has the loss to Alber during his most recent NCAA season, worse than any loss Rivera has had since his freshman year.  Rivera has the same highest placement.  He has better career wins (twice beating Spencer Lee, once over Seth Gross) vs. Eierman's best career win (Yianni).  After that, their career wins are roughly equivalent, Eierman beating the worst version of Dean Heil (the year he didn't place), Rivera beating the best version of Roman Bravo Young, etc.

None of these three have a clear cut advantage over each other in terms of resume, to me, though I would favor Rivera's career.  As I've said, I would go Lee, Eierman, Rivera in that order, but any mixture of the three would be fine by me.  But people are acting as if Lee and Eierman have had careers that they have not had.  I say this as an Iowa fan!  Remember, I'm rooting for Eierman to win!

As an Iowa fan especially, I don't see how you can put Lee over Eierman unless you are counting their freestyle match.   Eierman majored him the last time they wrestled folkstyle and has twice placed higher than him at NCAA's.

You discount Eierman's win over Yianni because he also lost to him, but then use Rivera's win over Gross, despite the fact that he also lost to him?  Eierman also beat Ashnault, a 4x AA and eventual champ.   Wins over Lee, Kolodzik, Demas among others.  He's even beaten McKenna although that was a few years back and he lost twice after that.   Nice "etc" for Rivera because he didn't really beat anyone at 133 besides Gross & RBY.  After Lee, even at 125 his only other really good wins are Vito & Glory. 

Rivera didn't have any bad losses last year because he only wrestled 15 matches.   In 2019 he was pretty much manhandled by Mueller, who was a finalist at 125 the year after failing to AA at 133.   That should be some evidence that moving up a weight (or 2 from where we're apparently comparing wins from) is not easy...

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24 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Eierman has a similar resume to Rivera, at best.  His best win is obviously Yianni, which he has lost the subsequent rematches.  He has the loss to Alber during his most recent NCAA season, worse than any loss Rivera has had since his freshman year.  Rivera has the same highest placement.  He has better career wins (twice beating Spencer Lee, once over Seth Gross) vs. Eierman's best career win (Yianni).  After that, their career wins are roughly equivalent, Eierman beating the worst version of Dean Heil (the year he didn't place), Rivera beating the best version of Roman Bravo Young, etc.

None of these three have a clear cut advantage over each other in terms of resume, to me, though I would favor Rivera's career.  As I've said, I would go Lee, Eierman, Rivera in that order, but any mixture of the three would be fine by me.  But people are acting as if Lee and Eierman have had careers that they have not had.  I say this as an Iowa fan!  Remember, I'm rooting for Eierman to win!

I'd say his best win in this argument is his 12-4 MAJOR DECISION over Nick Lee.  If anyone is going to justify him having a win over Johnny D, then use a result from the same year that puts 1/2 of this to bed.

That means that of the three that Eierman has 1 or 2 at the worst.  He cannot be lower than Lee.

Then seeing as Rivera just scraped together a win over Filius via 7-6 decision I would put Lee ahead of Rivera.  Lee took Filius down and rolled him over, with ease, at 2020 B1Gs.

This should be very easy to do, yet here we are on page 8.

Also...

This thread is supposed to be about Spencer lee.

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

As an Iowa fan especially, I don't see how you can put Lee over Eierman unless you are counting their freestyle match.   Eierman majored him the last time they wrestled folkstyle and has twice placed higher than him at NCAA's.

Because personally, I would favor Lee's most recent season as an indication that he has jumped levels.  But that's my personal valuation of the situation, not some definitive take on the matter.  If people wanted to value Eierman's head to head win over Lee two years ago, then by all means!

Quote

You discount Eierman's win over Yianni because he also lost to him, but then use Rivera's win over Gross, despite the fact that he also lost to him?  Eierman also beat Ashnault, a 4x AA and eventual champ.   Wins over Lee, Kolodzik, Demas among others.  He's even beaten McKenna although that was a few years back and he lost twice after that.   Nice "etc" for Rivera because he didn't really beat anyone at 133 besides Gross & RBY.  After Lee, even at 125 his only other really good wins are Vito & Glory. 

Typically, the most recent winner get the rankings advantage.  Rivera won the most recent match up against Gross.  Eierman has lost the most recent matches against Yianni.  I "etc." for both of them as I just gave their next best win, IMO, although you could argue Eierman's win over Lee himself as his next best win.

Wins over Glory and Vito are better wins, in my eyes, than wins over Kolodzik and Demas.

Quote

Rivera didn't have any bad losses last year because he only wrestled 15 matches.   In 2019 he was pretty much manhandled by Mueller, who was a finalist at 125 the year after failing to AA at 133.   That should be some evidence that moving up a weight (or 2 from where we're apparently comparing wins from) is not easy...

It was a shortened season, but he beat the other two guys ranked in the top 3.

 

As added fuel, here is the much-cited WrestleStat's math-based ranking:  https://www.wrestlestat.com/rankings/starters

1.  Rivera

2.  Eierman

3.  Lee

Same as Flo.

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Wrestlestat doesn't give bonus or penalty based on weight classes.  Spencer Lee would defeat Mason Parris via 9-6 decision according to their algorithm.

This said, it has always been pretty reliable when going one weight class up.  They're data points based off results, not opinion.  No way to manipulate them with human error.

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16 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Because personally, I would favor Lee's most recent season as an indication that he has jumped levels.  But that's my personal valuation of the situation, not some definitive take on the matter.  If people wanted to value Eierman's head to head win over Lee two years ago, then by all means!

Typically, the most recent winner get the rankings advantage.  Rivera won the most recent match up against Gross.  Eierman has lost the most recent matches against Yianni.  I "etc." for both of them as I just gave their next best win, IMO, although you could argue Eierman's win over Lee himself as his next best win.

Wins over Glory and Vito are better wins, in my eyes, than wins over Kolodzik and Demas.

It was a shortened season, but he beat the other two guys ranked in the top 3.

 

As added fuel, here is the much-cited WrestleStat's math-based ranking:  https://www.wrestlestat.com/rankings/starters

1.  Rivera

2.  Eierman

3.  Lee

Same as Flo.

If recency is more important, then we should throw out Rivera's wins over Spencer Lee because he won the weight that year...

Glory/Vito are at best comparable to Kolodzik/Demas IMO.   You forgot Ashnault.

How far back does wrestlestat look? 

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Just now, 1032004 said:

If recency is more important, then we should throw out Rivera's wins over Spencer Lee because he won the weight that year...

Glory/Vito are at best comparable to Kolodzik/Demas IMO.   You forgot Ashnault.

How far back does wrestlestat look? 

I'm not throwing out Eierman's win over Yianni, I'm slightly devaluing them because he lost the subsequent matches.  It's not the same with Spencer since Spencer didn't beat Rivera, so that transitive argument regarding Mueller doesn't hold weight to me; however, if we were using it, Eierman's win over Yianni would be even more devalued since he also placed behind Yianni at the weight both times.  Completely disagree on the equivalence between Glory/Vito vs. Kolodzik/Demas.  Glory and Vito are better wrestlers IMO than both of the bigger guys.

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39 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Wrestlestat doesn't give bonus or penalty based on weight classes.  Spencer Lee would defeat Mason Parris via 9-6 decision according to their algorithm.

This said, it has always been pretty reliable when going one weight class up.  They're data points based off results, not opinion.  No way to manipulate them with human error.

Incorrect. You cannot compare across weight classes on wrestlestat.

Humorously, wrestlestat has Lee beating Eierman 7-6 and beating Rivera 9-6. They also have Eierman beating Rivera 7-6.

Somehow Rivera going 0-2, Eierman going 1-1, and Lee going 2-0 against each other, gives you the reverse order in the rankings.

#Math.

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