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Fletcher

Missed opportunity to move season to spring

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Our high school season has been moved to April-June due to covid. Makes me thing that NCAA should have done this for the college season, and then just kept it there for future seasons. They could use the excuse of covid, but also reap the long term benefits of: (i) getting NCAA tourney away from March Madness; (ii) hosting NCAA tourney in summer weather; and (iii) having the season in one semester instead of two (not clear on the benefits of this, but I've heard student-athletes say this is a benefit).

Does anyone know if this was under consideration by the NCAA? Any downside to moving wrestling to the spring?

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I would love to see wrestling at both the high school and college level moved to the second semester.  Open tourneys in January and Feb, duals in March/April with NCAA's at the end of April beginning of May.  Curious what others thoughts are, other coaches, former wrestlers?

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14 minutes ago, jbai3_12 said:

I would love to see wrestling at both the high school and college level moved to the second semester.  Open tourneys in January and Feb, duals in March/April with NCAA's at the end of April beginning of May.  Curious what others thoughts are, other coaches, former wrestlers?

I could get on board with something like this.  I like the fact that wrestling is a winter sport (collegiately and high school).  To me moving it this year wouldn't have made a difference...the ultra-risk adverse stance that is being taken would have still applied later spring into summer...my opinion is that even with vaccines being more widely spread, it will be a long time before the local governments and now the federal government will let people get back to normal (not trying to start a political discussion!!!).  I say this with the perspective that once things are uber risk adverse, especially when it comes to something like a pandemic, people will drag the mandates and rules out as long as they can.

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I think the one semester thing is well liked by Cali Jucos,  but...Fall/Winter here in the midwest,  FOOTBALL is massive at the same time.    I was hesitant on a 1 semester for wrestling,  but,  you can do conditioning,  getting ready and all that,  let the athletes enjoy Thanksgiving and come back ready for the new year.  Problem is administrations that don't let you come back and stay on campus or use facilities during the break (I know of a school that is pretty talented that wans't allowed back on campus or in room until 2 days before a 2nd semester event...they got skunked 55-0 and guys were pale white).    I think a Late Jan start like NJCAA is doing would be great.  I think we get the Cali jucos to get on the same page as the rest of the country would be huge in growing more opportunities out west as well and would open up teams traveling to and from the West Coast.     I am banking opens will slowly go away and extra matches will stick around (predicting redshirts will no longer be going to Opens...at least the DI guys,  and you will continue to see quads with extra matches against other DI teams,  because for one,  it looks bad if you are a highly coveted recruit on a DI team and you lose to a 3rd stringer DIII guy for example).   

Bang for your buck on traveling is great too.  Pendleton at OSU  can fly cross country now and get match guarantees of half a dozen for his guys as opposed to showing up for a "required conference meet"  where some team may be open at a weight.   I hope the addition of extra matches facilitates growth out west.   We really need about 5 new programs in DI by 2025 (and all in Mountain/Western time zone)  to help the sport. 

I personally think we should be like track and field:   They have Cross Country,  Indoor,  Outdoor.

Why can't we have Greco,  FS,   Folkstyle?   Maybe it would take a small contingent of getting that together...and EDUCATE us on the Difference so folkstyle fans can learn FS and Greco,  and FS and Greco fans can learn that style better to explain it to new wrestling fans.   

I hope we keep some Opens.  I hope we keep some traditional invites.   I hope  we also continue to see a step up and face some teams we might not (Like Loras vs. UNK,   Iowa State vs.  Iowa Central,   Gannon vs. Kent State,  St. Thomas vs. Citadel and so on).  I believe these small school scraps between divisions or a David vs. Goliath setting have been awesome to see and helps give identity to some teams you may not have otherwise known about as we tend to have tunnel vision to just a division we are familiar with due to having competed in,  coached in,  or just prefer to follow.  

While we are at it,  Presbryterian and Limestone Women's dual on ESPN+ the other day was huge,  but let's pair that up televised with a men's match before it,  or interwoven with it to keep engagement of 2 styles.    COVID has sucked, but technology wise,  it is forcing some lazy bone  SIDs and ADs to offer better streaming,  or streaming in general to keep engagement of fanbases, and in many cases I think some schools you have never heard of tend to pop up on a link you find and you kick back and enjoy 2 teams battling it out that are 700 miles from your humble abode.   I think a lot of great things are matriculating with our sport....now we just got to keep it going and keep tweaking things to make it as perfect as we can! 

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March Madness is not a problem for the NCAA wrestling tournament. ESPN shows the tournament because they don't have basketball rights. If you move to the spring, you will be dealing with early season baseball along with NBA and NHL playoffs, both of which are on ESPN. 

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17 minutes ago, IronChef said:

March Madness is not a problem for the NCAA wrestling tournament. ESPN shows the tournament because they don't have basketball rights. If you move to the spring, you will be dealing with early season baseball along with NBA and NHL playoffs, both of which are on ESPN. 

And the start of the MLB Season, Frozen Four, The Masters ... There is a lot of additional pro sports clutter out there. I love a one-semester model. I think it would help with retention, which is a big problem with APR. That's a Catch 22. We want first generation college students, but many come from backgrounds where education wasn't part of the baseline growth experience, so when they struggle in college, we penalize them for being in eligible. Educationally - and I say this not as an educator but through experiences I witnessed in college - that first semester has academic probation written all over it. The athletes tend to get better help than the general student population, but when you fall behind, you fall behind. 

 

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32 minutes ago, BossHoss said:

You will also be dealing with World Team or Olympic Team Trials as well.  Not ideal.

I'd argue against that as long as they don't happen on the same weekend I've no qualms.

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From what I have read, the NCAA wanted to insure that spring sports were a go this season since they lost their entire season last year. Technically wrestling "only" lost the NCAA tourney. I think to avoid a crowded Spring and to have those sports that lost out last season not have any other distractions, they left it as is in winter. Not that I am opposed to such a move, just that I have read this reasoning several times. 

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Even if moving to spring was a good idea, nothing is certain about the future. If you can do something now, do it. We have no idea what spring will bring and what restrictions may be in place. Strike while the iron is hot.

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The Frozen Four is, I believe, Thursday Semis. Finals Saturday night. So if the Conference tournaments were that weekend on 1 game would be interfering with those tournaments. And it might be possible to work around. I think Finals 2 weeks later might interfere with gymnastics, not a big deal IMHO. So baseball and maybe the masters clashing with the NCAA finals. I suspect the first 2 full rounds of BktBall are a lot bigger clash

Although the next 4 sites(after StL and Det) have been announced, KC, Tulsa, Philly(?), XXX(?), I don't think dates were announced. Maybe we need to stick to one-major sport stadiums (NBA or NHL, but not both) Not so worried about AHL, and less significant pro sports (arena football etc), to mean scheduling will work. 

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Timing wise, I think it will get their eventually.  Have to clear out current slate of cities and contracts with venues, hotels and sports commissions.  Then they can move it back on the calendar...at least that's what I remember John Smith mentioning during LY's non-tournament.

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18 hours ago, CB said:

Timing wise, I think it will get their eventually.  Have to clear out current slate of cities and contracts with venues, hotels and sports commissions.  Then they can move it back on the calendar...at least that's what I remember John Smith mentioning during LY's non-tournament.

But will Carl approve?  Course Carl may be more willing to cooperate after this season.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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The key to looking at this debate is to make sure we’re looking at it solely from a big picture perspective for the health of the sport. 
 

I feel like too many important decisions or measures are torpedoed by coaches or “interest groups” (for lack of a better term), like club wrestling dads. And it seems like they do it because of the way it will affect only them in the short term. 

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12 minutes ago, jp157 said:

The key to looking at this debate is to make sure we’re looking at it solely from a big picture perspective for the health of the sport. 
 

I feel like too many important decisions or measures are torpedoed by coaches or “interest groups” (for lack of a better term), like club wrestling dads. And it seems like they do it because of the way it will affect only them in the short term. 

Do you have some "for instance"?  Not trying to argue but truly curious.

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2 hours ago, dman115 said:

Do you have some "for instance"?  Not trying to argue but truly curious.

I have seen it in everything from how tournaments get set up/seeded, to implementing things like the 2-piece, how access to the sport should be increased, and with things like moving the season. 
 

An easy, non offensive example I can give off top of my head is when a big local tournament was being set up . Every suggestion to make it run smoothly, clean up seeding and make it more accessible.. was torpedoed by coaches only concerned with how it “might” affect a few of their kids. 

Ive seen it in things like when looking at or implementing rules or other changes to to make the sport more accessible and encourage action. The loudest opposition usually seems to be wrestling dads or club coaches because, “the sport will never be mainstream so why even bother”. It actually comes across with that crowd like they would rather have their current system with shrinking numbers and popularity.. than have a robust wrestling culture in the US where kids who aren’t from the club system or didn’t start wrestling at age 5 can succeed at the elite level. Or, put another way. Would rather be the big fishes of shrinking ponds than risk more competition in the ocean. 
 

Hell, you see it with all the recruiting and poaching that’s becoming more accepted. Why coach when you can poach lol. If it happens to decrease depth of competition and lower the overall level or wrestling who cares.. as long as we win for a couple years now. 

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On 2/11/2021 at 11:09 AM, Swayz said:

 I am banking opens will slowly go away and extra matches will stick around (predicting redshirts will no longer be going to Opens...at least the DI guys,  and you will continue to see quads with extra matches against other DI teams,  because for one,  it looks bad if you are a highly coveted recruit on a DI team and you lose to a 3rd stringer DIII guy for example).   

An interesting premise, but redshirts would not be able to wrestle in extra matches associated with a collegiate dual.  These matches are countable, attached matches and cannot be participated in without being charged eligibility.

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20 hours ago, jp157 said:

I have seen it in everything from how tournaments get set up/seeded, to implementing things like the 2-piece, how access to the sport should be increased, and with things like moving the season. 
 

An easy, non offensive example I can give off top of my head is when a big local tournament was being set up . Every suggestion to make it run smoothly, clean up seeding and make it more accessible.. was torpedoed by coaches only concerned with how it “might” affect a few of their kids. 

Ive seen it in things like when looking at or implementing rules or other changes to to make the sport more accessible and encourage action. The loudest opposition usually seems to be wrestling dads or club coaches because, “the sport will never be mainstream so why even bother”. It actually comes across with that crowd like they would rather have their current system with shrinking numbers and popularity.. than have a robust wrestling culture in the US where kids who aren’t from the club system or didn’t start wrestling at age 5 can succeed at the elite level. Or, put another way. Would rather be the big fishes of shrinking ponds than risk more competition in the ocean. 
 

Hell, you see it with all the recruiting and poaching that’s becoming more accepted. Why coach when you can poach lol. If it happens to decrease depth of competition and lower the overall level or wrestling who cares.. as long as we win for a couple years now. 

Thanks!  And yeah...I see what you are saying...have noticed those same things in the past myself.

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8 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Thanks!  And yeah...I see what you are saying...have noticed those same things in the past myself.

Thank you for understanding 
 

I think my issue lately has been that no one is really wanting to acknowledge or face some of the issues head on. Or truly acknowledge how potentially tenuous the sports overall health really is. 
 

The number one area it bothers me is the shift I’ve seen in the attitude about coaching. I see more and more coaches writing off building numbers and coaching in certain places because “kids these days is just too soft”. Which to me says. A lot of wrestling coaches have become entitled and don’t want to do the hard work as a coach they tell their kids to do. It also shows an inherent assumption that you can’t build mental toughness in kids. Which is wrong. 
 

As far as the spring issue. I’m honestly 50/50 about college and 60/40 for it happening in high school. 

 

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