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Does Orndoff at 285lbs Qualify this year?

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12 minutes ago, balanceseeker said:

Losing Lou was huge (I am a Rosselli fanboy) but he's not the only one in the room that can coach.  J and Tervel are both obviously very accomplished as athletes and coaches.  On this years team I would argue that Heinselman, Ethan Smith, and Romero as athletes that have made significant development in the past several on the current squad.  Sasso has gotten a lot better as well but he was pretty dang good to begin with.  

 

I understand that. I follow Ohio Stare wrestling quite closely. I’ll modify my response to “Tom Ryan and Ohio State seem to be worst of the top tier programs at developing talent that wasn’t already handed to them ready to go”

Again, it’s my opinion. I’m well aware of that. I have several opinions many on here would/do disagree with like: “people need to stop squawking about having “pure” state championships. It helps smaller teams and if you’re that obsessed with “purity”.. go to Fargo or Super 32” lol
 

 My opinions are based off following the sport closely, having wrestled in college 5 years, coaching currently, being able to help out at some top tier hs programs, currently being a head coach and discussions I’ve had with veteran coaches. I’m pointing this out to make clear that my opinions are not being made in ignorance or from being a “fanboy” or “hater”. 

11 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

So multiple world champs aren't a big deal?

How about Olympic gold medals?

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See my other responses. I very clearly stated out my points. No obtuseness allowed.

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2 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

Mark Hall never repeated.  Vincenzo Joseph only won one more after his freshman year.  Is this because Cale sucks at coaching or because it's super hard to win an NCAA title let alone multiple titles?

"only" one more title, lol.  convenient that you picked 2 guys who only had the opportunity to wrestle in 3 championships...

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“I understand that. I follow Ohio Stare wrestling quite closely. I’ll modify my response to “Tom Ryan and Ohio State seem to be worst of the top tier programs at developing talent that wasn’t already handed to them ready to go”

I get we are talking about the least of the best but John Smith isn’t getting a lot out of dome top tier recruits these days.  He and TR are top notch recruiters but Cael just seems to take his guys to a higher level more often.  

It would be nice to see refs stop a lot of the PSU guys from pinching the leg and parallel riding so much.

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8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

"only" one more title, lol.  convenient that you picked 2 guys who only had the opportunity to wrestle in 3 championships...

Hall split with Kemmerer and was maybe 50/50 to repeat, Cenzo had the guy that beat him the year before returning at his weight.  Could also be argued that Tom Ryan would have likely have 2 more champs if they had wrestled it including not highly recruited Kolin Moore.

 

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10 hours ago, jp157 said:

I understand that. I follow Ohio Stare wrestling quite closely. I’ll modify my response to “Tom Ryan and Ohio State seem to be worst of the top tier programs at developing talent that wasn’t already handed to them ready to go”

Again, it’s my opinion. I’m well aware of that. I have several opinions many on here would/do disagree with like: “people need to stop squawking about having “pure” state championships. It helps smaller teams and if you’re that obsessed with “purity”.. go to Fargo or Super 32” lol
 

 My opinions are based off following the sport closely, having wrestled in college 5 years, coaching currently, being able to help out at some top tier hs programs, currently being a head coach and discussions I’ve had with veteran coaches. I’m pointing this out to make clear that my opinions are not being made in ignorance or from being a “fanboy” or “hater”. 

See my other responses. I very clearly stated out my points. No obtuseness allowed.

I never questioned you're wrestling credentials or how close you follow Ohio State.  I would assume most people on this site follow wrestling pretty close (I coached high school for 20 years and am a tOSU season ticket holder.  I disagreed with you and other who selectively use "facts" to back your opinion.  I agreed that Ohio State is not developing talent as well as Missouri or NC State but totally disagree about Okie State.  John Smith is my hero but they get at least as many blue chip recruits as Ohio State and have not (at least in the last 15 years) done nearly as well.  Pop and Brian Smith are great and definitely do more with less (although Missouri gets some pretty nice recruits at this point).  Interesting Tom Ryan was a "more with less" guy at Hofstra which is why he got tOSU job in the first place.  Cael gets great recruits and is great at developing them.  As far as your modified response I think its closer to accurate but I still don't understand how you justify this as tOSU continues to finish ahead of other "Top Tier Programs" that are supposedly better at developing talent. 

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1 hour ago, balanceseeker said:

Hall split with Kemmerer and was maybe 50/50 to repeat, Cenzo had the guy that beat him the year before returning at his weight.  Could also be argued that Tom Ryan would have likely have 2 more champs if they had wrestled it including not highly recruited Kolin Moore.

 

Cenzo did not have the guy that beat him the year before in NCAAs returning as Lewis was in Oly RS.  Like Hall he had a tough guy from Iowa who he seemed to be about even with.  Both PSU stars would have had a good shot at adding a title to their career resumes.  I do agree with you that Ohio St had a good shot at two titles.

Edited by lu1979

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2 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

Cenzo did not have the guy that beat him the year before in NCAAs returning as Lewis was in Oly RS.  Like Hall he had a tough guy from Iowa who he seemed to be about even with.  Both PSU stars would have had a good shot at adding a title to their career resumes. 

You're right Lewis was on Olympic rs.  Also not repeating doesn't mean they didn't improve.  Myles Martin was way better his senior year than his freshman year.  If you want to argue that tOSU staff didn't have him mentally prepared for the finals or he choked that's probably valid but that's not the same as not developing.  Regarding Nato, he wrestled his senior year with a torn ACL and still found a way to beat Spencer Lee once (at Big 10) and finish 3rd at NCAA.  You can say that's lack of development but clearly having a torn ACL and facing a generational talent played a part.

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See my other responses. I very clearly stated out my points. No obtuseness allowed.
I'd agree with your comment about Roselli if he was tearing it up at OU. His guys are even on the freestyle ladder, excluding Woodley.

Where is Roselli's results after Ohio State?

Could it be Ohio State actually made Roselli look like an elite freestyle coach?




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Just now, cjc007 said:

I'd agree with your comment about Roselli if he was tearing it up at OU. His guys are even on the freestyle ladder, excluding Woodley.

Where is Roselli's results after Ohio State?

Could it be Ohio State actually made Roselli look like an elite freestyle coach?




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Considering how barren the cupboard was at OU, as well as how downhill the culture had become when he arrived.. I’d say he’s actually done a very good job. I also am of the opinion he’s probably much better as an assistant coach than a head coach. I hope it’s absolutely clear that I’m not saying he’s a “bad” head coach btw.. 
 

My opinion about how much he affected Ohio State’s wrestling is based off.. what I’ve observed in person at matches and on film, what other college coaches have said about him as well as what the actual athletes have said about his impact.. 

 

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1 hour ago, balanceseeker said:

You're right Lewis was on Olympic rs.  Also not repeating doesn't mean they didn't improve.  Myles Martin was way better his senior year than his freshman year.  If you want to argue that tOSU staff didn't have him mentally prepared for the finals or he choked that's probably valid but that's not the same as not developing.  Regarding Nato, he wrestled his senior year with a torn ACL and still found a way to beat Spencer Lee once (at Big 10) and finish 3rd at NCAA.  You can say that's lack of development but clearly having a torn ACL and facing a generational talent played a part.

Also not only having a torn ACL, but managing a weight down to 125lbs when having wrestled 133lbs the previous year(and not being small for 133lbs).

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Considering how barren the cupboard was at OU, as well as how downhill the culture had become when he arrived.. I’d say he’s actually done a very good job. I also am of the opinion he’s probably much better as an assistant coach than a head coach. I hope it’s absolutely clear that I’m not saying he’s a “bad” head coach btw.. 
 
My opinion about how much he affected Ohio State’s wrestling is based off.. what I’ve observed in person at matches and on film, what other college coaches have said about him as well as what the actual athletes have said about his impact.. 
 
I like Lou Roselli.

I think he's a great coach.

However, if he is the reason for the Buckeyes Olympic and World GOLD medals, don't you think the elite wrestlers would flock to Norman?

Why aren't the top freestyle recruits choosing OU?

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5 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

I like Lou Roselli.

I think he's a great coach.

However, if he is the reason for the Buckeyes Olympic and World GOLD medals, don't you think the elite wrestlers would flock to Norman?

Why aren't the top freestyle recruits choosing OU?

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It isn't all about freestyle.  Folkstyle does matter to some kiddos and wrestling in the B1G right now is far superior as far as potential competition and aptitude than any other conference.  Add in that tOSU has one of the very best facilities that money can buy, and you have a recipe that doesn't just include the freestyle coaching.

Compare facilities.

Compare competition.

Compare the kids in the room to work out with.

Compare folkstyle coaches.

Compare freestyle coaches.

Compare freestyle RTC.

Don't just compare freestyle coaches.

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2 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

I never questioned you're wrestling credentials or how close you follow Ohio State.  I would assume most people on this site follow wrestling pretty close (I coached high school for 20 years and am a tOSU season ticket holder.  I disagreed with you and other who selectively use "facts" to back your opinion.  I agreed that Ohio State is not developing talent as well as Missouri or NC State but totally disagree about Okie State.  John Smith is my hero but they get at least as many blue chip recruits as Ohio State and have not (at least in the last 15 years) done nearly as well.  Pop and Brian Smith are great and definitely do more with less (although Missouri gets some pretty nice recruits at this point).  Interesting Tom Ryan was a "more with less" guy at Hofstra which is why he got tOSU job in the first place.  Cael gets great recruits and is great at developing them.  As far as your modified response I think its closer to accurate but I still don't understand how you justify this as tOSU continues to finish ahead of other "Top Tier Programs" that are supposedly better at developing talent. 

Develpong talent has less to do with where a team finishes in March and more to do with a kid improving during his time at a university.

In recent memory, for Ohio State, Micah Jordan (and Bo Jordan* for that matter) could not get out from the bottom on a consistent basis. This was true for him in his freshmen year as well as his senior year. That is what is meant by not developing talent. I do believe Micah Jordan was a 2x (maybe 3x) AA. That has nothing to do with the fact that he failed to develop from the bottom position.

I'm sure there are others, but that is my most recent memory.

*It is my understanding that Bo Jordan has a foot issue that limited him severely as far as movements from the bottom position, to include driving off his foot in neutral.

Edited by RealAmericanHero

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21 minutes ago, RealAmericanHero said:

Develpong talent has less to do with where a team finishes in March and more to do with a kid improving during his time at a university.

In recent memory, for Ohio State, Micah Jordan (and Bo Jordan* for that matter) could not get out from the bottom on a consistent basis. This was true for him in his freshmen year as well as his senior year. That is what is meant by not developing talent. I do believe Micah Jordan was a 2x (maybe 3x) AA. That has nothing to do with the fact that he failed to develop from the bottom position.

I'm sure there are others, but that is my most recent memory.

*It is my understanding that Bo Jordan has a foot issue that limited him severely as far as movements from the bottom position, to include driving off his foot in neutral.

Micah also was playing musical chairs with what weight class he was going.  157-149-165 his true frosh/redshirt year alone, then 141, 149, 157, 149... not ideal.

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2 hours ago, balanceseeker said:

I never questioned you're wrestling credentials or how close you follow Ohio State.  I would assume most people on this site follow wrestling pretty close (I coached high school for 20 years and am a tOSU season ticket holder.  I disagreed with you and other who selectively use "facts" to back your opinion.  I agreed that Ohio State is not developing talent as well as Missouri or NC State but totally disagree about Okie State.  John Smith is my hero but they get at least as many blue chip recruits as Ohio State and have not (at least in the last 15 years) done nearly as well.  Pop and Brian Smith are great and definitely do more with less (although Missouri gets some pretty nice recruits at this point).  Interesting Tom Ryan was a "more with less" guy at Hofstra which is why he got tOSU job in the first place.  Cael gets great recruits and is great at developing them.  As far as your modified response I think its closer to accurate but I still don't understand how you justify this as tOSU continues to finish ahead of other "Top Tier Programs" that are supposedly better at developing talent. 

I’ve clearly stated Tom Ryan is very good at getting ready to go talent. As well as pulling transfers. I actually don’t dislike Tom Ryan personally. I also think there’s a good argument to be made we need more CEO types like him and Koll than just room guys. 

 

I also think the “enthusiastic” support tOSU enjoys from its fans plays a factor in how some have responded. 

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58 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

I like Lou Roselli.

I think he's a great coach.

However, if he is the reason for the Buckeyes Olympic and World GOLD medals, don't you think the elite wrestlers would flock to Norman?

Why aren't the top freestyle recruits choosing OU?

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@nhs67 put it perfectly. 

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