Jump to content

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, ionel said:

He beat Suriano, maybe you didn't see the match.  Now the ref did decide to award Suriana as the "winner."  But good grief there is a difference in freestyle weight control and weigh ins vs folk.

Is there a huge difference in weigh in procedures currently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, drag it said:

I think WAR would generally be a better way to compare across eras than ERAs, no pun intended :), because ERA is tied to runs scored in the league as a whole, which fluctuates wildly between eras. 

For instance, ERAs were much lower in the 19teens, because the ball was dead and dirty and hard to see and because Ruth himself hadn't yet transformed the game by demonstrating the possibilities and value of power hitting.  Ruth's 2.01 ERA in 1917 was 7th best in the league that year, but would have won the ERA title every year from 2001-2010.  Similarly the famous "Year of the Pitcher" statistics from 1968, with a higher mound, bigger strike zone, and no hitting background in center field (such as Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA, and Denny McLain's 31 wins) have to be adjusted (downgraded) in comparison to other years; whereas Pedro Martinez's numbers in the 1990s and 2000s have to be adjusted (upgraded) due to the juiced players, juiced balls, and juiced (short fence) ballparks in his time. 

If you're going by ERA, it's better to go by ERA+, which is adjusted for things like league scoring that year and the park the pitcher played in.  Ruth's career ERA was 2.28, Pedro's was 2.93.  But Pedro was several classes above Ruth as a pitcher.  His career ERA+ was 154 (third best ever behind Rivera and Kershaw), while Ruth's was 122.  (Higher is better, ERA+ compares you to the rest of the league at 100.)  Pedro had an ERA+ over 200 five times, including an absurd 291, the best in history, in the Steroid Central Season of 2000 (he was 1.74; next best AL pitcher was 3.70!).  Ruth's best ERA+ was 158.

Ruth was third and fifth in WAR among AL pitchers (for pitching value, not overall value which would include his awesome hitting) in 1916 and 1917, the two years he threw over 300 innings (back then a common amount for starters).  And he had a 0.87 World Series ERA including a record for consecutive scoreless innings that lasted 43 years.  That's really good, "all star" quality stuff, definitely not average, and possibly/probably Hall of Fame if he had done it for a career.    

But he wouldn't seem to have been a likely all time great even if he only pitched his whole career.  Perhaps more Coleman Scott than John Smith, or more Joe Williams than Tom Brands.  

wow thanks for all the info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Is there a huge difference in weigh in procedures currently?

Pretty sure freestyle weighs in once for a tourney, no 2 or 3 days of weigh-ins.  I could be wrong, its happened before.  :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I agree, but is that a function of Dake's style being that matches often stay close, and so it doesn't look as bad when they do?  Like, if Lee didn't blow so much of his competition away and instead let them hang around, like Dake often would, would we think of Lee as being "not great in close matches"?

Yeah I get it, additionally he just doesn't have as much practice in winning chess matches. Nevertheless, i think you know what I mean. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ionel said:

Pretty sure freestyle weighs in once for a tourney, no 2 or 3 days of weigh-ins.  I could be wrong, its happened before.  :(

Fix has competed (and medaled) in several age level and senior trials and world championships at 57kg when there were two day same day weigh ins...

i would bet a dollar he does the same this year at OTT at 57 with no ill effects...

not saying he will win, but, he will weigh in two days and compete just fine...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah I get it, additionally he just doesn't have as much practice in winning chess matches. Nevertheless, i think you know what I mean. 

It's a really good point.  Dake in OT, or even a one or two point match of any kind, you figure he wins an inordinate amount of them, more than Lee.

I think it's a bit of an open question as to what to make of Lee's mixed results in the closer matches, when you consider the major knee injury that affected his freshman year and the unspecified illness that affected his sophomore year.  For instance, he completely gassed vs Bresser, and he looked tentative and unsure in the Rivera losses.  He was a completely different guy, finally really himself, at NCAAs both years, when he was just a killing machine.  The best way to illustrate this was the difference between the careful, low-scoring early Tomasello matches and the way he manhandled him at NCAAs.

I also think that Lee has to be given some credit for how hard he wrestles from the opening whistle, compare to Dake's more cautious approach.

But Lee's record does suggest that this might be a real issue.  Even the Desanto loss in high school contributes to this perception.  (I personally think he should be given huge credit for wrestling with the injury (and never bitching about it) -- but, again, you think of a match like that and you figure Dake finds a way to win it.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, ionel said:

Pretty sure freestyle weighs in once for a tourney, no 2 or 3 days of weigh-ins.  I could be wrong, its happened before.  :(

Multi day weighins now, two hours before start.  They've been lenient since the Olympics have been postponed but those are the official WC/Olympic rules now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, drag it said:

I think WAR would generally be a better way to compare across eras than ERAs, no pun intended :), because ERA is tied to runs scored in the league as a whole, which fluctuates wildly between eras. 

For instance, ERAs were much lower in the 19teens, because the ball was dead and dirty and hard to see and because Ruth himself hadn't yet transformed the game by demonstrating the possibilities and value of power hitting.  Ruth's 2.01 ERA in 1917 was 7th best in the league that year, but would have won the ERA title every year from 2001-2010.  Similarly the famous "Year of the Pitcher" statistics from 1968, with a higher mound, bigger strike zone, and no hitting background in center field (such as Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA, and Denny McLain's 31 wins) have to be adjusted (downgraded) in comparison to other years; whereas Pedro Martinez's numbers in the 1990s and 2000s have to be adjusted (upgraded) due to the juiced players, juiced balls, and juiced (short fence) ballparks in his time. 

If you're going by ERA, it's better to go by ERA+, which is adjusted for things like league scoring that year and the park the pitcher played in.  Ruth's career ERA was 2.28, Pedro's was 2.93.  But Pedro was several classes above Ruth as a pitcher.  His career ERA+ was 154 (third best ever behind Rivera and Kershaw), while Ruth's was 122.  (Higher is better, ERA+ compares you to the rest of the league at 100.)  Pedro had an ERA+ over 200 five times, including an absurd 291, the best in history, in the Steroid Central Season of 2000 (he was 1.74; next best AL pitcher was 3.70!).  Ruth's best ERA+ was 158.

Ruth was third and fifth in WAR among AL pitchers (for pitching value, not overall value which would include his awesome hitting) in 1916 and 1917, the two years he threw over 300 innings (back then a common amount for starters).  And he had a 0.87 World Series ERA including a record for consecutive scoreless innings that lasted 43 years.  That's really good, "all star" quality stuff, definitely not average, and possibly/probably Hall of Fame if he had done it for a career.    

But he wouldn't seem to have been a likely all time great even if he only pitched his whole career.  Perhaps more Coleman Scott than John Smith, or more Joe Williams than Tom Brands.  

Did you know that the Babe was also a great wrestler in high school? (not really, but he could have been).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Multi day weighins now, two hours before start.  They've been lenient since the Olympics have been postponed but those are the official WC/Olympic rules now. 

Ok, I was wrong again, won't be the last time.  :(  But they aren't weighing in twice per week, every week of the season. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Interesting debate about what "great in close matches" means.  I would imagine most wrestlers have worse records in close matches by definition given if it's close you're more likely to lose.  Here's Spencer's career in my subjective list of his close matches.  I wonder how he stands up against others.  That's an honest question, too, I'm not saying you're wrong.

Glory - won 12-6

Mueller - won 5-0

These two were not close and the Suriano match, while deceptively close in score, can be argued was not close either. Your good point stands without this padding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ionel said:

He beat Suriano, maybe you didn't see the match.  Now the ref did decide to award Suriana as the "winner."  But good grief there is a difference in freestyle weight control and weigh ins vs folk.

I saw the match.  Suriano's hand was raised.  Fix should have cut his hair if he thought pulling on a headgear was a thing.  Also, Smith illegally threw his challenge brick and the refs reviewed anyway.  Suriano was the champ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

These two were not close and the Suriano match, while deceptively close in score, can be argued was not close either. Your good point stands without this padding.

Like I said, it's a subjective list.  I definitely disagree on Mueller, but the second Glory match may be fair to say it wasn't close.  Spencer went up 10-0, and then Glory scored 6 points, including backs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hope I am following correctly, but in my mind the glory match was closer than Suriano or Mueller. 
If the other guy doesn't sniff his own points, it wasn't a close match.
See? Like I said, subjective!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Suriano and Mueller finals weren't close to a different result.  The combined score was 10-1 and the one point came on a give-away escape at the very end against Suriano, a top-shelf wrestler whom Lee clearly outclassed.  He was never close to giving up an earned score in either match, even after getting cradled by Mueller after making a bad choice to take down; Mueller, as big a hammer on top as there was in the country (ask Rivera), couldn't move Lee a smidgeon off his base despite having his hands locked.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Multi day weighins now, two hours before start.  They've been lenient since the Olympics have been postponed but those are the official WC/Olympic rules now. 

Olympics and Worlds are scratch weight each day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...