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Jimmy Cinnabon

Kyle "The Lion Tamer" Dake

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Everything has been very tight in that matchup for a long time, and I don't think there is a big difference in relative skill, style, or technique which has changed substantially for either. Geduev reveled the template to beat Burroughs: stay almost inhumanely discipled with your levels, punch Jordan right back in the mouth when he punches you repeatedly in the face, and fight every position like one pushout could decide the match. Burroughs has a mental edge, and if Dake looks over to the ref one time to complain about something I will put the house on JB winning the series.

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41 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

I think Burroughs can finish on Dake and Dake doesn’t attack enough on the highest level guys to get to Burroughs enough to win. If he gets to JB’s legs he will finish because he’s not great at defending but he knows if he misses JB’s go behinds and reattacks are so good it will keep him hesitant. Both are good at pushing guys out of bounds. Should be great. Can’t wait. 

I think Dake is gonna keep burroughs off his legs.

In response to Dake not attacking enough, the unique thing about Dake is he seems to attack exactly enough, he is one of the few who can win a chess match or a fist fight, and can also choose which the match is gonna be. 

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3 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Honest question: when has Dake won a fist fight? I think he is going to have to, but I don't know if he can.

The majority of his international matches. Its his shots, he's physical, lots of points, matches end early.

When he wrestled chamizo he went after him.

Wasn't like that in college. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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3 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

The majority of his international matches. Its his shots, he's physical, lots of points, matches end early.

Wasn't like that in college. 

I agree that he is extremely physical and can beat the crap out of or completely overwhelm someone , but can he win the nip and tuck, bloody trench warfare matches that Burroughs somehow comes out on top of like 98% of the time?

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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28 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

The majority of his international matches. Its his shots, he's physical, lots of points, matches end early.

When he wrestled chamizo he went after him.

Wasn't like that in college. 

How has  that worked out for him in the past against JB? I think he has a shot, but it's kind of like picking Taylor over Dake.  The pick makes sense, but the rivalry is completely one sided. 

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22 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

I agree that he is extremely physical and can beat the crap out of or completely overwhelm someone , but can he win the nip and tuck, bloody trench warfare matches that Burroughs somehow comes out on top of like 98% of the time?

I don't think there is any evidence Burroughs matches resemble trench warfare. Thats not a knock on his effort, keeping guys off you with motion is harder than handfighting, and he can handfight but its pure blocking, i think they gruesomeness of his matches is somewhat caused by him just not being that efficient with his style.

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2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

How has  that worked out for him in the past against JB? I think he has a shot, but it's kind of like picking Taylor over Dake.  The pick makes sense, but the rivalry is completely one sided. 

That's not a point. I didn't say Dake always beats burroughs, I said he is going to.

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Just now, hammerlockthree said:

That's not a point. I didn't say Dake always beats burroughs, I said he is going to.

Right.  But the points you are making have all applied to their past matches..with extremely lopsided results.  Your prediction may be correct, but that's because Burroughs is getting older-it's not that Dake is suddenly a bad matchup for him.

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

Right.  But the points you are making have all applied to their past matches..with extremely lopsided results.  Your prediction may be correct, but that's because Burroughs is getting older-it's not that Dake is suddenly a bad matchup for him.

The flaw in your argument is that is presumes Dake couldn't have passed up burroughs. 

I think it looks like Burroughs passed his prime, no evidence Dake isn't in his prime. 

 

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9 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I don't think there is any evidence Burroughs matches resemble trench warfare. Thats not a knock on his effort, keeping guys off you with motion is harder than handfighting, and he can handfight but its pure blocking, i think they gruesomeness of his matches is somewhat caused by him just not being that efficient with his style.

Didn't mean trench warfare like tough greco handfighting, and I agree that Burroughs tactics rely on basically "wrestling" as little as possible, but he has been in some freaking battles over the years...tsargush, geduev, howe, chamizo. I don't think there are many blood and guts matches like those in Dake's resume really.

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3 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Didn't mean trench warfare like tough greco handfighting, and I agree that Burroughs tactics rely on basically "wrestling" as little as possible, but he has been in some freaking battles over the years...tsargush, geduev, howe, chamizo. I don't think there are many blood and guts matches like those in Dake's resume really.

Dake has beaten 3 of those guys and never wrestled the 4th...one of which with a broken hand.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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20 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

 it's kind of like picking Taylor over Dake.  The pick makes sense, but the rivalry is completely one sided. 

Sorry to spam you but its not like picking Taylor over Dake. Burroughs has been beaten on last second scores in two consecutive world semis, he just lost to a badly choking David Taylor (who I thought would tech him so I have no business pointing that out)....I'm not into the idea that Burroughs clutch gene is gonna bail him out, which is why Dake beats Taylor. 

This is largely a myth caused by the Flo bros going through a phase where they sucked up to everyone by asking about their "sprint".

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IMO, Jordan Burroughs is slightly cooler under pressure than Kyle Dake and it might make the difference because they are within a couple points of each-other even if you think Dake has a slight edge in ability right now, which I agree with. The clutch gene might be slightly overstated, but it's definitely not a myth just because Sidakov has it too and is just slightly better right now.

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3 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

The majority of his international matches. Its his shots, he's physical, lots of points, matches end early.

When he wrestled chamizo he went after him.

Wasn't like that in college. 

He has also wrestled Taylor both ways (chess, fight) on different occasions.

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..... The clutch gene might be slightly overstated, but it's definitely not a myth just because Sidakov has it too and is just slightly better right now.


Wish more people would think like this.
Burroughs taking 2 last second losses to Sidakov does not elevate Dake's abilities or diminish JBs.

All Sidakov had done was beat previous world champs to make his team and then go 2 years undefeated, while wrestling Chamizo and JB multiple times.
*JB came back to get bronze both times .

Dake beating Hasanov by 2 a couple of times (tip of the cap for winning Gold) doesn't say anything about his development over the years.

Yes Gold is more desirable than Bronze but assess the competition just a little.




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11 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Everything has been very tight in that matchup for a long time, and I don't think there is a big difference in relative skill, style, or technique which has changed substantially for either. Geduev reveled the template to beat Burroughs: stay almost inhumanely discipled with your levels, punch Jordan right back in the mouth when he punches you repeatedly in the face, and fight every position like one pushout could decide the match. Burroughs has a mental edge, and if Dake looks over to the ref one time to complain about something I will put the house on JB winning the series.

Over/under on number of times he complains to the officials is 6.  I'll take the over. 

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2 hours ago, spladle08 said:


Dake beating Hasanov by 2 a couple of times (tip of the cap for winning Gold) doesn't say anything about his development over the years.

Yes Gold is more desirable than Bronze but assess the competition just a little.



 

 

I get why you're saying this, but it's not a fair point and you keep saying it. Dake only beat Hasanov while JB only lost by a little to a very good world champ ... Those two facts are completely unrelated and irrelevant. JB losing may or may not be a sign of his decline, but Dake only beating Hasanov has nothing to do with his progression. What about his performance at 74 kg? He only rolled up a world medalist in about a minute. What about his performance against an extremely game Ringer? Needless to say, common opponents don't always indicate where someone stands relative to another, but JB has recently split with Chamizo and Dake did beat the guy. Maybe it was not an impressive win, but anytime anyone beats Chamizo, even up a weight in an exhibition, it's damn impressive. Chamizo would at least get honorable mention on a list of 10ish pound for pound best in the world at any weight. 

I'm still very undecided on who I think would win today, JB or Dake, and I'm leaning JB purely due to history and being in Dake's head the way Dake is in DT's, but Dake has definitely improved, even if just by adding more muscle as he ducked JB for a couple of years up a weight. There's a reason JB admits to constantly thinking about Dake above even international competition in interviews. It'll be far from easy for either and time has been less kind to JB if we're going to be objective.

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I get why you're saying this, but it's not a fair point and you keep saying it.



So I initially ended that post with
*The Gadzhi win from the 2018 Worlds or the rolling over Demirtas would help y'all's argument more (which I admit were impressive) but didn't want to give them anymore ammunition.

The continual argument people are making though is "he's crushing to golds and JB is winning bronze"

I'm the biggest Chamizo homer on this board, but Chamizo hasn't split with JB it's like 1-4 or something like that and Dake's result obviously wasn't convincing..

Driving but yeah, I just keep pointing to the weakness that has been 79kg cause people are using that gold as an indicator and I don't like it.

I'm not 100% convinced JB wins but maybe 70.45%

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Instead of analyzing this to death like some, I am taking Dake 2 bouts to 1 to beat JB.  I say this with a heavy heart as I think JB is one of the best ever and one of my favorite guys to watch, but based on pure eye test, logic, age, my $$ is on Dake.  Hope I am wrong.

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Instead of analyzing this to death like some, I am taking Dake 2 bouts to 1 to beat JB.  I say this with a heavy heart as I think JB is one of the best ever and one of my favorite guys to watch, but based on pure eye test, logic, age, my $$ is on Dake.  Hope I am wrong.
Elaborate on logic/age... I'm curious if people think that gap from 30 to 32 is that significant.

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Instead of analyzing this to death like some, I am taking Dake 2 bouts to 1 to beat JB.  I say this with a heavy heart as I think JB is one of the best ever and one of my favorite guys to watch, but based on pure eye test, logic, age, my $$ is on Dake.  Hope I am wrong.

It’s a smart position, but dear god let us analyze this to death, this is the first time in a while we have used the board for what it’s for rather than descending into personal or political bickering where I have to mute everyone to find wrestling posts.

Prediction: Dake 2-1. One comfy win one close loss one close win.
Confidence level: VERY low. Would not bet on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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10 minutes ago, spladle08 said:
20 minutes ago, dman115 said:
Instead of analyzing this to death like some, I am taking Dake 2 bouts to 1 to beat JB.  I say this with a heavy heart as I think JB is one of the best ever and one of my favorite guys to watch, but based on pure eye test, logic, age, my $$ is on Dake.  Hope I am wrong.

Elaborate on logic/age... I'm curious if people think that gap from 30 to 32 is that significant.

It is my personal opinion...remember I said I wasn't analyzing this to no end like some others have chosen to (not a criticism of those that do, just my choice).  However, I'll humor you and give you some insight into some of the very little thinking I did do, and that is, Dake has been polishing his craft pretty consistently the last 1.5 years, Burroughs not so much (sans the Taylor match)...this is understandable for Burroughs given his advanced years (that is a joke about his age), but in all seriousness JB is getting to the point of one of my favorite and applicable songs by Tobi Keith..."I ain't as good as I once was, but I am good once as I ever was."  Hence...I think Dake takes it 2 bouts to 1.  Again, hope I am wrong. 

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