4 Match Minimum

[uncle bernard 1,112]

To my knowledge, you've never needed a minimum amount of matches to qualify as long as you finished in one of the allocated spots at conferences, at least recently. So, why on earth did they add this this year? Isn't this year the last year you would want something like this when participation is less controllable than ever?

I totally understand a minimum for being considered for a wild card, but if you finish high enough, you should go period. What were they thinking? Am I missing something?

[Plasmodium 2,224]

What you are missing is that after the Ivy cancelled sports, the NCAA gave last year's allotment to their ghosts.   Wait.  That doesn't have anything to do with this.  My bad.

Because they awarded spots to qualifying tournaments without regard to anyone earning them and they couldn't let just anyone in?  Interesting that last years qualifiers for PAC12 141 were Willits and Woods.

[Eagle26 583]

2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

To my knowledge, you've never needed a minimum amount of matches to qualify as long as you finished in one of the allocated spots at conferences, at least recently. So, why on earth did they add this this year? Isn't this year the last year you would want something like this when participation is less controllable than ever?

I totally understand a minimum for being considered for a wild card, but if you finish high enough, you should go period. What were they thinking? Am I missing something?

I agree. Wrestling has had a lot of dumb rules but this one might be the dumbest. This may not happen but, theoretically, someone who was forced to not compete due to the pandemic could only get 3 matches at their conference and finish 2nd but not qualify even if their weight took 4 or 5 guys! Why would you ever create a scenario where that could happen. I guess they could try to pick up a dual meet or something before NCAAs, right?

[nhs67 1,981]

I'm okay with the minimum.  It seems ironic that he'll miss out and essentially both kiddos he best wrestled off for the right to go to NCAAs in the consi-finals.

Woods was healthy.  He could have gotten one more match anywhere.  The fact that he certified so late means that it was a late add got him.

Unfortunate for him and the Stanford program, but this scenario was quite like the Lipari/Chlebov situation.

[uncle bernard 1,112]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

I'm okay with the minimum.  It seems ironic that he'll miss out and essentially both kiddos he best wrestled off for the right to go to NCAAs in the consi-finals.

Woods was healthy.  He could have gotten one more match anywhere.  The fact that he certified so late means that it was a late add got him.

Unfortunate for him and the Stanford program, but this scenario was quite like the Lipari/Chlebov situation.

Obviously, Woods is the high profile case here, but that's not really my focus. 

Was there ever a match minimum before this year? It was my understanding that you could enter conferences 0-0 and as long as you placed high enough, the spot was yours. Didn't Ray Brinzer do this back in the day? To me, if you show up at conferences and place high enough, that should be it. The only time I ever heard about match minimums were for earning the AQ for the conference and wild card consideration afterwards, which I agree with. 

Why would they pick this year, of all years, to install a match minimum? It's the year people are most likely to miss matches. It's the shortest season in at least the modern era of college wrestling. It's totally confounding to me.

[ISUChip 69]

There's been a match minimum for awhile, just at a different step in the process.

[uncle bernard 1,112]

8 minutes ago, ISUChip said:

There's been a match minimum for awhile, just at a different step in the process.

Yes, but that difference is pretty big. 

That's like if there was a military coup and you said "the president has always left office, just at a different step in the process."

[nhs67 1,981]

In any case, this is how I see it and the reason I'm not upset by any of this process:

First off, we are lucky to be getting a season.  From how difficult it is for some schools to field a team without going further into the red to all the rules/regulations/stipulations laid forth by different health organizations, states, conferences, and schools, I believe we should all be grateful that we're 'only' losing Stanford and that we should all brace for the inevitable happening that we're going to see many more drop over the coarse of the next few years because of all this Covid related stuff.

Second off, the format has been laid out for months and months.  Everybody knew that they were taking the average of the last five years for some time now.  We are the naive ones that believed that a governing body that has really $HlT the bed in so many ways of organizational capacity throughout all of this 'rona crap was going to do something that seemed common sense to us well educated fans.  They didn't.  They did precisely what they said they were going to do, though.  We can't fault them for doing what they were going to do.

Third off, and this is specific to the Woods situation, is that in that same format that had been laid out for AQ criteria, the minimum match requirement was laid out.   Laid out in it's entirety of how to get around it, if needed, as well.  While this won't win over many of you as fans, I will put it out there as simply as it should be: Woods showing up expecting to win was arrogant.  He booted a teammate out of a chance, much like Jones did at ASU with the Chlebove/Lipari embarassment.  Arroyo may not have made the semis or won a match, but he didn't get stuck when he wrestled Willits.  He put the work in all season and Woods shows up expecting to make a run.  You don't do that in wrestling.  You put in the work on the mat and you get what you earn.  Well Woods got what he earned yesterday.  Willits flipped a major decision 11-2 loss in last years PAC 12 finals to a pinfall victory and a title.

All of this said, Woods has a bright future.  When McKenna crapped the bed at NCAAs did anybody wish him ill-will?  No.  And I don't here.  He has a brighter future than 99.9% of the people reading this forum, and that doesn't even count his future wrestling successes.  He'll take this and dig down and be right there as a contender next year again, wherever he lands.  The same can be said for Griffith and the rest of these kiddos that continue wrestling elsewhere.

[uncle bernard 1,112]

3 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

In any case, this is how I see it and the reason I'm not upset by any of this process:

First off, we are lucky to be getting a season.  From how difficult it is for some schools to field a team without going further into the red to all the rules/regulations/stipulations laid forth by different health organizations, states, conferences, and schools, I believe we should all be grateful that we're 'only' losing Stanford and that we should all brace for the inevitable happening that we're going to see many more drop over the coarse of the next few years because of all this Covid related stuff.

Second off, the format has been laid out for months and months.  Everybody knew that they were taking the average of the last five years for some time now.  We are the naive ones that believed that a governing body that has really $HlT the bed in so many ways of organizational capacity throughout all of this 'rona crap was going to do something that seemed common sense to us well educated fans.  They didn't.  They did precisely what they said they were going to do, though.  We can't fault them for doing what they were going to do.

Third off, and this is specific to the Woods situation, is that in that same format that had been laid out for AQ criteria, the minimum match requirement was laid out.   Laid out in it's entirety of how to get around it, if needed, as well.  While this won't win over many of you as fans, I will put it out there as simply as it should be: Woods showing up expecting to win was arrogant.  He booted a teammate out of a chance, much like Jones did at ASU with the Chlebove/Lipari embarassment.  Arroyo may not have made the semis or won a match, but he didn't get stuck when he wrestled Willits.  He put the work in all season and Woods shows up expecting to make a run.  You don't do that in wrestling.  You put in the work on the mat and you get what you earn.  Well Woods got what he earned yesterday.  Willits flipped a major decision 11-2 loss in last years PAC 12 finals to a pinfall victory and a title.

All of this said, Woods has a bright future.  When McKenna crapped the bed at NCAAs did anybody wish him ill-will?  No.  And I don't here.  He has a brighter future than 99.9% of the people reading this forum, and that doesn't even count his future wrestling successes.  He'll take this and dig down and be right there as a contender next year again, wherever he lands.  The same can be said for Griffith and the rest of these kiddos that continue wrestling elsewhere.

I mostly agree with this. I don't feel bad for Real Woods. Selfishly, I'm relieved there is potentially one less tough kid for Eierman to go through. Coaches have no excuse not to know this as you said, so that's on them. 

My beef is more general. I just want to know HOW this system got greenlit in the first place. It has so many bizarre and obvious holes. Where did some of these ideas come from?

[nhs67 1,981]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

I mostly agree with this. I don't feel bad for Real Woods. Selfishly, I'm relieved there is potentially one less tough kid for Eierman to go through. Coaches have no excuse not to know this as you said, so that's on them. 

My beef is more general. I just want to know HOW this system got greenlit in the first place. It has so many bizarre and obvious holes. Where did some of these ideas come from?

It got greenlit because there is no precedent and the powers that be thought this the easiest route.  Not the best, but the easiest. 

[ugarte 515]

given stanford's commitment to wrestling i wouldn't bet a lot on them finding a fourth match for woods

[jdalu75 119]

I think a lot of things sound good at the virtual conference table that maybe don't work out in reality.  F'instance, during EIWAs, I was the one keeping track of how many seasonal bouts the wrestlers had, because if one of several guys finished 2nd at their weight I'd have had to alert Bryan Hazard to not announce them as NCAA qualifiers.  So at a weight with four qualifiers, the 1st, 3rd, and 4th guys would know they were going, the 5th-place guy had qualified conditionally but would not go if the 2nd-place guy's coach could scrounge up a match for him this week.  That's aside from the rumored covid exception to the 4-bout minimum that the NCAA may announce this week.  Fortunately, none of the wrestlers in question finished second.

I'm betting that nobody sitting at the virtual conference table thought all that out.

[ionel 2,445]

53 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

In any case, this is how I see it and the reason I'm not upset by any of this process:

First off, we are lucky to be getting a season.  From how difficult it is for some schools to field a team without going further into the red to all the rules/regulations/stipulations laid forth by different health organizations, states, conferences, and schools, I believe we should all be grateful that we're 'only' losing Stanford and that we should all brace for the inevitable happening that we're going to see many more drop over the coarse of the next few years because of all this Covid related stuff.

Second off, the format has been laid out for months and months.  Everybody knew that they were taking the average of the last five years for some time now.  We are the naive ones that believed that a governing body that has really $HlT the bed in so many ways of organizational capacity throughout all of this 'rona crap was going to do something that seemed common sense to us well educated fans.  They didn't.  They did precisely what they said they were going to do, though.  We can't fault them for doing what they were going to do.

Third off, and this is specific to the Woods situation, is that in that same format that had been laid out for AQ criteria, the minimum match requirement was laid out.   Laid out in it's entirety of how to get around it, if needed, as well.  While this won't win over many of you as fans, I will put it out there as simply as it should be: Woods showing up expecting to win was arrogant.  He booted a teammate out of a chance, much like Jones did at ASU with the Chlebove/Lipari embarassment.  Arroyo may not have made the semis or won a match, but he didn't get stuck when he wrestled Willits.  He put the work in all season and Woods shows up expecting to make a run.  You don't do that in wrestling.  You put in the work on the mat and you get what you earn.  Well Woods got what he earned yesterday.  Willits flipped a major decision 11-2 loss in last years PAC 12 finals to a pinfall victory and a title.

All of this said, Woods has a bright future.  When McKenna crapped the bed at NCAAs did anybody wish him ill-will?  No.  And I don't here.  He has a brighter future than 99.9% of the people reading this forum, and that doesn't even count his future wrestling successes.  He'll take this and dig down and be right there as a contender next year again, wherever he lands.  The same can be said for Griffith and the rest of these kiddos that continue wrestling elsewhere.

You had me :) right up to "pinfall." :(

;)

Edited March 1, 2021 by ionel

[uncle bernard 1,112]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

You had me :) right up to "pinfall." :(

;)

Don't encourage him. Next thing you know, he'll bring back "keggers" lol.

[nhs67 1,981]

30 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Don't encourage him. Next thing you know, he'll bring back "keggers" lol.

Hey now.  Keggers is a Freestyle thing.

[ionel 2,445]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Don't encourage him. Next thing you know, he'll bring back "keggers" lol.

[ShakaAloha 418]

10 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I'm okay with the minimum.  It seems ironic that he'll miss out and essentially both kiddos he best wrestled off for the right to go to NCAAs in the consi-finals.

Woods was healthy.  He could have gotten one more match anywhere.  The fact that he certified so late means that it was a late add got him.

Unfortunate for him and the Stanford program, but this scenario was quite like the Lipari/Chlebov situation.

What kind of effort is the Stanford coaching staff making to get Woods one more match so that he is eligible for NCAA's?  It's sad if they let his season end this way.

[GreatWhiteNorth 530]

So - PSU's Kerk could (theoretically) go 2 & BBQ at B1G's and not qualify for NCAA's. Thus leaving Nevills, who was a top-10 guy, on the bench at home.

Wouldn't that be something.

[calot 222]

28 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

So - PSU's Kerk could (theoretically) go 2 & BBQ at B1G's and not qualify for NCAA's. Thus leaving Nevills, who was a top-10 guy, on the bench at home.

Wouldn't that be something.

Kerk has 2 matches already pinned 2 Maryland guys. 1 in the dual and 1 in a extra match

[Antitroll2828 987]

9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

 

  When McKenna crapped the bed at NCAAs did anybody wish him ill-will?  No.  And I don't here.  He has a brighter future than 99.9% of the people reading this forum, and that doesn't even count his future wrestling successes.  He'll take this and dig down and be right there as a contender next year again, wherever he lands.  The same can be said for Griffith and the rest of these kiddos that continue wrestling elsewhere.

Not to nitpick here but idk if  losing in the blood round with a torn meniscus to Jayden Eierman Is “ crapping the bed” 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,452]

48 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Not to nitpick here but idk if  losing in the blood round with a torn meniscus to Jayden Eierman Is “ crapping the bed” 

Your message board warrior license is suspended. One more reasonable statement out of you and we revoke.

[Housebuye 2,419]

15 hours ago, ugarte said:

given stanford's commitment to wrestling i wouldn't bet a lot on them finding a fourth match for woods

The Stanford coaches have been incredible throughout this process. They will get him a match if there is any way to do it. 

[Housebuye 2,419]

8 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

So - PSU's Kerk could (theoretically) go 2 & BBQ at B1G's and not qualify for NCAA's. Thus leaving Nevills, who was a top-10 guy, on the bench at home.

Wouldn't that be something.

Nope. Kerk just needs to wrestle 2 matches and he will get an at large most likely. If he goes 0-2, there is an argument that he shouldn’t get an at large. 
  
barring injury, there is no way he goes 0-2 at Big10s though, so he will take a qualifying spot and have at least 4 matches, so he will auto qualify 

[nhs67 1,981]

6 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Not to nitpick here but idk if  losing in the blood round with a torn meniscus to Jayden Eierman Is “ crapping the bed” 

I know that, however if you are just someone who doesn't follow wrestling very closely you see his nationals where he DNP and you go 'Hmmmm...'  Quite similar circumstances in that neither were able to perform to their peak due to underlying issues.

[nhs67 1,981]

9 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

What kind of effort is the Stanford coaching staff making to get Woods one more match so that he is eligible for NCAA's?  It's sad if they let his season end this way.

I hope the fullest effort.

 

38 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

The Stanford coaches have been incredible throughout this process. They will get him a match if there is any way to do it. 

The one detriment is that they have alienated themselves from the powers that be at Stanford going as far as attacking their character.  If they need approval from the school, they may have burned too many bridges to get it.