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Jimmy Cinnabon

How good was Vincenzo Joseph?

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3x finalist, 2x champ over another all-time great, IMAR.  Penchant for coming up big in big matches.  Somehow was outshown by other stars on his team.

Had a habit of losing to Marinelli and dropping the occasional puzzling match.

 

Where does he rank all-time?

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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Habit of dropping the occasional puzzling match....he lost 5 matches his last three years of college wrestling.  Marinelli, I-Mart, Marinelli, Mekhi, Marinelli.  Hell, his losses as a freshman were Subjeck, Isaac Jordan, I-Mar, I-mart.  That's one puzzling loss in his whole career and it was in his second match as a freshman.  Pay your debts.

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With no tournament last year, I think you can only put him on par with the other 3x finalists, 2x champs.

Definitely sucks for the seniors last year, both for guys going for their first title as well as those trying to improve their legacy.    Although technically Joseph was the only senior with a shot at a 3rd last year right?

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12 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

With no tournament last year, I think you can only put him on par with the other 3x finalists, 2x champs.

Definitely sucks for the seniors last year, both for guys going for their first title as well as those trying to improve their legacy.    Although technically Joseph was the only senior with a shot at a 3rd last year right?

I don’t think it’s fair to take his finishes in his three years and say they are on par with people that took 4 years to get the same finishes. That gives him no credit for his final season in which he was very likely to be another finalist if not champ. If he had won it last year, he would have finishes of 2-1-1-1 which would put him on par with Nickal and Nolf as GOAT at penn state. No one even considers him for that title mainly because we didn’t see same the level of dominance as we did in the others. I think people tend to over-weigh that when they judge how “good” a wrestler really is (think Dake vs Taylor). So, yes, Joseph has gotten overshadowed.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

3x finalist, 2x champ over another all-time great, IMAR.  Penchant for coming up big in big matches.  Somehow was outshown by other stars on his team.

Had a habit of losing to Marinelli and dropping the occasional puzzling match.

 

Where does he rank all-time?

big in big matches but not big in BIG (championship) matches, correct?  ;)

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24 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I don’t think it’s fair to take his finishes in his three years and say they are on par with people that took 4 years to get the same finishes. That gives him no credit for his final season in which he was very likely to be another finalist if not champ. If he had won it last year, he would have finishes of 2-1-1-1 which would put him on par with Nickal and Nolf as GOAT at penn state. No one even considers him for that title mainly because we didn’t see same the level of dominance as we did in the others. I think people tend to over-weigh that when they judge how “good” a wrestler really is (think Dake vs Taylor). So, yes, Joseph has gotten overshadowed.

I agree Joseph was (possibly unreasonably) overshadowed by others at PSU, but I don't think you can give him credit for making the finals either since we didn't have a tournament. 

I mean it's probably similar to the oldheads that couldn't wrestle as freshmen.   They don't get "credit" for doing anything as a freshman, but when you talk about them you should bring up the asterisk that they didn't have another chance.

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

With no tournament last year, I think you can only put him on par with the other 3x finalists, 2x champs.

Definitely sucks for the seniors last year, both for guys going for their first title as well as those trying to improve their legacy.    Although technically Joseph was the only senior with a shot at a 3rd last year right?

Does Zahid count?  Or no because he got suspended?

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6 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Does Zahid count?  Or no because he got suspended?

I'd say no since he wasn't in the bracket.   But he could certainly have the same asterisk discussion although his was obviously his own doing.

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I agree Joseph was (possibly unreasonably) overshadowed by others at PSU, but I don't think you can give him credit for making the finals either since we didn't have a tournament. 

I mean it's probably similar to the oldheads that couldn't wrestle as freshmen.   They don't get "credit" for doing anything as a freshman, but when you talk about them you should bring up the asterisk that they didn't have another chance.

Yes I think that’s a fair assessment. To clarify, I wasn’t suggesting he should be credited with another title and be regarded in the same class as Nolf and Nickal, but it was a realistic possibility that was taken away. I would say it was very likely he would finish between 1 and 3, so even a 2nd place finish would put him on par with Taylor. But as you said, a better comparison is probably the older generation that couldn’t wrestle as freshman. Coincidentally, he has the exact same finishes as Dan Gable (1,1,2). 

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It seems to me unfair, but maybe a moot point to put Joseph ahead of Zahid, when they both won 2 NCAA titles, and neither got to compete in 2019-20.  If you were to argue that 1-1-2 Nada is better than 3-1-1 nada that is legitimate but I doubt anyone would have put Joseph's chances of a 3rd NCAA win ahead of Zahid's - had they both been at Nationals.

This is a fun moot argument, because it does not mean anything, cannot be proven, and is completely subjective.  Having said that - IMHO - Zahid should be ranked ahead of Joseph.  

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34 minutes ago, JerryCallo said:

It seems to me unfair, but maybe a moot point to put Joseph ahead of Zahid, when they both won 2 NCAA titles, and neither got to compete in 2019-20.  If you were to argue that 1-1-2 Nada is better than 3-1-1 nada that is legitimate but I doubt anyone would have put Joseph's chances of a 3rd NCAA win ahead of Zahid's - had they both been at Nationals.

This is a fun moot argument, because it does not mean anything, cannot be proven, and is completely subjective.  Having said that - IMHO - Zahid should be ranked ahead of Joseph.  

The main difference being that Zahid would've absolutely blitzed the field at 2020's NCAA tournament if he'd participated, whereas Joseph would've been an underdog (a role he thrived in at one point). Good call on Zahid being ranked ahead of Joseph, I agree. 

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41 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

The main difference being that Zahid would've absolutely blitzed the field at 2020's NCAA tournament if he'd participated, whereas Joseph would've been an underdog (a role he thrived in at one point). Good call on Zahid being ranked ahead of Joseph, I agree. 

I think both Zahid and Vincenzo would have won 2020 NCAA's if there was a tournament and they had been allowed to enter.  Shame it never happened.

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2 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

I think the fairest thing to do is plug in the 2020 seniors' seed.

not perfect, i know, but closest thing we have. 

so Cenzo, imo, is among the greats

1-1-2-2

That is one way to give Marinelli the national championship that has eluded him thus far

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On 3/2/2021 at 10:00 AM, VakAttack said:

Habit of dropping the occasional puzzling match....he lost 5 matches his last three years of college wrestling.  Marinelli, I-Mart, Marinelli, Mekhi, Marinelli.  Hell, his losses as a freshman were Subjeck, Isaac Jordan, I-Mar, I-mart.  That's one puzzling loss in his whole career and it was in his second match as a freshman.  Pay your debts.

Seems like there's really only one way to beat Joseph, and I bet Peyton Mocco or Kennedy Monday would have figured it out last year!

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4 minutes ago, Griff the BullRam said:

Seems like there's really only one way to beat Joseph, and I bet Peyton Mocco or Kennedy Monday would have figured it out last year!

I'm not sure Kennedy could get to the finals if his family held an in-house tournament

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