Jump to content
Jimmy Cinnabon

"Seeds don't matter because you have to beat everyone to be champ"

Recommended Posts

This is not a collegiate example, but one from my son's last season (also this year).  He only wrestled his Junior and Senior year, but was arguably the best on the team (not really know for its wrestling).

Top 4 from subdistricts (6 man bracket max, but most had less) advanced to districts (8 teams) and those top 4 went to state.  I don't think state was in his sights, but he felt pretty good about his 3rd seed for subdistricts.  I expected him to wrestle whomever was the worst seed and #1 and #2 would get a bye.  Instead, they gave him the bye and had the worst wrestler take on #2....so, we had 6 wrestlers, but seeded 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7.  

2 beat "7 (6)"... so my son's first match was vs #2.  He was pinned, but this wasn't unexpected.  On the other side, 5 beat 4 in some crazy score and it plays out that my son's next match is against #4. He loses a close one (9 to 7) and was really disappointed.  I think that 1 and 2 were way better...3, 4, and 5 were not separated by as much.

I just felt it was tough.  He had beaten #7(6) twice already.  Had he matched up against him he probably ends up 4th at worst.  

Then he had lower seeded teammates who made it to districts and I felt a lot had to do with their seeding.

So I am a bit bitter and you will have to excuse me for that.  The ceiling wasn't high, but he felt like he really failed not getting out of subdistricts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is simple minded thinking and way for those that choose to look at everything in a positive light to paint a bright picture.  While the statement itself is not untrue, the longer you have to wait to wrestle the tougher guy, the more likely something will happen that prevents you from having to do so.  Also can factor in the chances of getting bonus points for your team if you get a tough draw.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MonagFam said:

This is not a collegiate example, but one from my son's last season (also this year).  He only wrestled his Junior and Senior year, but was arguably the best on the team (not really know for its wrestling).

Top 4 from subdistricts (6 man bracket max, but most had less) advanced to districts (8 teams) and those top 4 went to state.  I don't think state was in his sights, but he felt pretty good about his 3rd seed for subdistricts.  I expected him to wrestle whomever was the worst seed and #1 and #2 would get a bye.  Instead, they gave him the bye and had the worst wrestler take on #2....so, we had 6 wrestlers, but seeded 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7.  

2 beat "7 (6)"... so my son's first match was vs #2.  He was pinned, but this wasn't unexpected.  On the other side, 5 beat 4 in some crazy score and it plays out that my son's next match is against #4. He loses a close one (9 to 7) and was really disappointed.  I think that 1 and 2 were way better...3, 4, and 5 were not separated by as much.

I just felt it was tough.  He had beaten #7(6) twice already.  Had he matched up against him he probably ends up 4th at worst.  

Then he had lower seeded teammates who made it to districts and I felt a lot had to do with their seeding.

So I am a bit bitter and you will have to excuse me for that.  The ceiling wasn't high, but he felt like he really failed not getting out of subdistricts.

 

What state? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are, by my quick math, 22 guys who are either already qualified for the Olympics or are potential Olympic qualifiers.

My point is not to discuss the likelihood of each making the team but their mentality. Do you think anyone making a run in one month at being an Olympian and a few months later trying to be, literally, the best in the world cares about seeding at NCAAs? I say no, because as Sir Cinnabon pointed out "Seeds don't matter because you have to beat everyone to be [an Olympic] champ." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Well you've found the right forum then...

Lol.  Well, I don't know that I will have a lot to be bitter about since his wrestling career is over, but I think he enjoyed it while it lasted.  There will always be that seed/draw though....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/3/2021 at 8:55 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Do people honestly believe this?

No it matters in a blind draw the 2 best could meet right off the bat, meaning the loser at best could only get 3rd in the tournament, and some are demoralized after losing and mentally pack it in after a loss, or in a blind draw 1 Wrestler could have to go through 3 -4 studs to get to the final and the other could get a really easy draw/path to to get to the final, that said having an occasional blind draw during the season would be fun,  I think The Olympic Boxing Tournament is a blind draw and the 2 favorites have met right off the bat in some cases and they don't have consolations so  A Boxer who is #1 or #2 ranked for the tournament wont get a medal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jchapman said:

Seeds matter because you don’t have to beat everyone to be the champ.  Gable will only have to beat one of Parris/Cass/Kerk because of the seeding

Seeds, schmeeds. They did matter, but not anymore. The champ gig is the same for everyone (all weight classes) now.

Beat everyone in front of you and you're the champ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Seeds, schmeeds. They did matter, but not anymore. The champ gig is the same for everyone (all weight classes) now.

Beat everyone in front of you and you're the champ.

Ask Parris if it’s the same for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Show_Me said:

It’s obviously more than just being the “Champ”.

Agreed - it obviously is. But for this thread's sake, I'm limiting the scope to the subject of the OP's topic. 

(And, obviously, by this time tomorrow this thread will most likely be dead and buried. We'll be moving on.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/4/2021 at 11:22 AM, MonagFam said:

This is not a collegiate example, but one from my son's last season (also this year).  He only wrestled his Junior and Senior year, but was arguably the best on the team (not really know for its wrestling).

Top 4 from subdistricts (6 man bracket max, but most had less) advanced to districts (8 teams) and those top 4 went to state.  I don't think state was in his sights, but he felt pretty good about his 3rd seed for subdistricts.  I expected him to wrestle whomever was the worst seed and #1 and #2 would get a bye.  Instead, they gave him the bye and had the worst wrestler take on #2....so, we had 6 wrestlers, but seeded 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7.  

2 beat "7 (6)"... so my son's first match was vs #2.  He was pinned, but this wasn't unexpected.  On the other side, 5 beat 4 in some crazy score and it plays out that my son's next match is against #4. He loses a close one (9 to 7) and was really disappointed.  I think that 1 and 2 were way better...3, 4, and 5 were not separated by as much.

I just felt it was tough.  He had beaten #7(6) twice already.  Had he matched up against him he probably ends up 4th at worst.  

Then he had lower seeded teammates who made it to districts and I felt a lot had to do with their seeding.

So I am a bit bitter and you will have to excuse me for that.  The ceiling wasn't high, but he felt like he really failed not getting out of subdistricts.

 

#6 (7) didn’t qualify though right?  If I’m reading correctly that guy should have had to beat #5 in order to qualify.

Do you think your son was better than #5 (I know transitive property doesn’t always work but #5 beat #4 who beat #3)?  If not then it may be a moot point - I’m assuming 1 and 2 wrestled in the finals.  So that would have put #5 in the loser’s bracket, so if your son (#3) then lost to #4, I think #4 should have wrestled the winner of #5 and #6 (7) in the 3rd/4th place match.

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

#6 (7) didn’t qualify though right?  If I’m reading correctly that guy should have had to beat #5 in order to qualify.

Do you think your son was better than #5 (I know transitive property doesn’t always work but #5 beat #4 who beat #3)?  If not then it may be a moot point - I’m assuming 1 and 2 wrestled in the finals.  So that would have put #5 in the loser’s bracket, so if your son (#3) then lost to #4, I think #4 should have wrestled the winner of #5 and #6 (7) in the 3rd/4th place match.

Despite #5 beating #4 in the first round, I do think my son was better.  My son was probably too patient or not aggressive enough at times, often waiting for his opponent to make a mistake, which is what I think would have happened vs #5 had they wrestled.  I felt like#5 was a shorter, stouter wrestler who came forward more and may have played more into my son's style.  #4 on the other hand was like a longer version of my son and it forced him to be more aggressive in the third period, which led to some takedown attempts leading to 2 points for the opponent. He also never had to cut weight since the coaches were happy with his performance at 195, but I think he felt he could have made 182.  

Obviously if my son beats #4 it's a moot point and he feels he should have done better (so I am also coming as a father feeling for his kid).  Also, I noted it's not like I felt he was the best wrestler in his field or would have advanced through districts had he qualified.  It was just tough to see his season end that way without a win.  It was kind of a perfect storm -- of the 14 weights, his was among the top with four above .500 (one had five, and one other had four, but it only had four wrestlers so regardless of results that whole weight class advanced to districts); then the draw didn't work in his favor with #5 throwing things off with that first round victory!  

Too much info below, but the way his bracket played out is below.  So as #3 he faced #2 and #4.  Here was the path of two of his teammates who did advance, both got first round byes.  One had a bracket of 5 wrestlers -- he was a #3 faced #2 (loss), #5 (win), #4 (loss)....another had a bracket of 6 wrestlers and was a #5 -- he faced #1 (loss), #6 (win), and #8 (win).

 

I think this is how it worked [records may have been post tournament]--

Championship Bracket

#1 [28-6] = bye

#2 [22-11] vs #6(7) [4-18] = 2 victory via pinfall

#3 [14-10] -- this is my son and I think Trackwrestling may have one or two more wins than I recall, but he was above .500] = bye

#4 [12-9] vs #5 [12-17] = 5 victory (it was something crazy like 19-14 with a number of nearfalls for 5 being the difference)

______________________________________________________

Championship Bracket

#1 vs #5 = #1 victory via pinfall

#2 vs #3 = #2 victory via pinfall

Consolation Bracket

# 4 = bye

#6(7) = bye

_______________________________________________________

Consolation Bracket

#3 vs #4 = #4 victory (7-5)

#5 vs #6(7) = #5 victory via pinfall

_______________________________________________________

Championship Bracket

#1 vs #2 = #1 victory via pinfall

Consolation Bracket

#4 vs #5 = #4 victory via pinfall

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...