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Officiating Calls this post season...

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2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I believe the eventual loser was hit with multiple cautions throughout the match, for his starting position on top in the referee's position.  Opponent was awarded a point after the third caution.  The losing wrestler didn't understand what he was doing wrong to receive the cautions, and also didn't realize a poiint was awarded after the third caution.

Maybe I am wrong here, but I like to explain the reason for infractions to the wrestler.  I do not believe that falls into the realm of coaching, more like "preventative officiating."  

"Your palm wasn't on the navel."

"Stalling red; red you are backing up."


"Illegal hold. Full nelson; it is a full nelson even if your hands do not touch."

I find that quick explanations go far with the coaches and the fans.  Your calls shouldn't be a mystery.  You need to be quick with explanations, sometimes (with a stall) during the action, but athletes, coaches, and fans tend to appreciate.

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24 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Maybe I am wrong here, but I like to explain the reason for infractions to the wrestler.  I do not believe that falls into the realm of coaching, more like "preventative officiating."  

"Your palm wasn't on the navel."

"Stalling red; red you are backing up."


"Illegal hold. Full nelson; it is a full nelson even if your hands do not touch."

I find that quick explanations go far with the coaches and the fans.  Your calls shouldn't be a mystery.  You need to be quick with explanations, sometimes (with a stall) during the action, but athletes, coaches, and fans tend to appreciate.

It's my understanding that the ref did explain, but since he was wwearing a mask, the deaf wrestler was unable to read his lips.

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43 minutes ago, jchapman said:

It's my understanding that the ref did explain, but since he was wwearing a mask, the deaf wrestler was unable to read his lips.

 

37 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Ugh.  I completely sympathize with both, then. 

I watched the match when it happened.  I did not realize he wasn't aware of the penalty at the time.  It took twitter conversations and articles to understand what happened.  

 

I am still not sure how his coaches couldn't get his attention some way.  

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20 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

 

I am still not sure how his coaches couldn't get his attention some way.  

I read a newspaper article about this match, and the coach said he kept telling the ref that his wrestler was deaf and couldn't hear what he was saying.  It didn't really expain why the coach didn't communicate directly with his wrestler.  Maybe there just wasn't time?  The coach was pretty upset that the one ref at the state tournament who wore a mask ended up reffing this kid's finals match.  He said there were multiple refs at the tournament who reffed this kid's matches before, and knew how to effectively communicate.

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6 minutes ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

 

Thanks for posting the match.  So the evenetual losing wrestler was cautioned while on bottom in the referee's postion.  And it looked like the ref did go over and try to explain with hands and movement what the infraction was.  But obviously the bottom wrestler didn't fully understand as he was cautioned again on the next restart.

This is a tough situation all the way around, but obviously devastating for the losing wrestler.  

BTW, I think the winning wrestler ended the match as a 4Xer.

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9 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Thanks for posting the match.  So the evenetual losing wrestler was cautioned while on bottom in the referee's postion.  And it looked like the ref did go over and try to explain with hands and movement what the infraction was.  But obviously the bottom wrestler didn't fully understand as he was cautioned again on the next restart.

This is a tough situation all the way around, but obviously devastating for the losing wrestler.  

BTW, I think the winning wrestler ended the match as a 4Xer.

Yes, Garcia is a 4x state champ and a Wyoming recruit.  The newspaper article (linked earlier in this thread) said that he and Ruff had split their six matches over the last two years.  And that they'd met in the 2020 state final with Garcia winning in sudden victory.

It'd be fun if they'd meet again in college.  However, I don't know if Ruff will be continuing his wrestling career.  Maybe someone who follows Nebraska high school wrestling will chime in with more info.  I'd be interested in hearing about the rest of Ruff's high school career - other than the two losses to Garcia in OT in the state finals.  (Where is Willie?...he knows all that stuff..)

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1 minute ago, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Yes, Garcia is a 4x state champ and a Wyoming recruit.  The newspaper article (linked earlier in this thread) said that he and Ruff had split their six matches over the last two years.  And that they'd met in the 2020 state final with Garcia winning in sudden victory.

It'd be fun if they'd meet again in college.  However, I don't know if Ruff will be continuing his wrestling career.  Maybe someone who follows Nebraska high school wrestling will chime in with more info.  I'd be interested in hearing about the rest of Ruff's high school career - other than the two losses to Garcia in OT in the state finals.  (Where is Willie?...he knows all that stuff..)

I saw an interview with Ruff the day following the Finals.  He said he was going to wrestle in college, but didn't know where yet.  He mentioned some schools that reached out to him, the only one I remember was St. Cloud State.

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This match is getting a lot of press, with Ruff's family asking for an apology and a rematch:

https://www.wowt.com/2021/02/25/family-wants-apology-rematch-after-miscommunication-error-during-wrestling-state-championship-with-deaf-athlete/

Also, it looks like his two second-place finishes to Garcia were the only times he placed at the state tournament.

https://www.trackwrestling.com/membership/ViewProfile.jsp?twId=525666096

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Some random thoughts:

Does a ref have to give an explanation for the caution?  This ref looks like he is trying to give an explanation, and ultimately Ruff is saying that his failure to understand the explanation led to the next (and third caution).  Ultimately, no one is aruging that Ruff didn't deserve the cautions.  Ruff should know how to properly start from the bottom.  

It seems like the ref followed the rules as written.  Not sure anything else can be done as far as overturning the result of the match.

By Ruff giving the "thumb up" signal during the explanation, I feel like the ref thought everything was communicated properly.  Ruff says the "thumb up" sign was the way he was asking the ref if what he (Ruff) motioned was the correct reason for the caution.  This sequence was very unfortunate and I believe lead to what ulimately is the controversy surrounding this match.

This whole thing seems like it could have been handled a little better by many parties.  The ref could have been prepped better (this is what to expect, this is how to handle certain situations, etc) by the coaches, tournament director, head of refs, etc.  The ref could have been more aware of the situation as it unfolded.  The coaches could have made sure a comunication plan was in place prior to the Finals match, even though they encountered no problems in previous matches.   Between Ruff and his coaches, Ruff should have been aware that he was losing 1-0 instead of tied 0-0.  Having said all this, the situation occured in SV of a state final in real time. It all happend so quickly, hard to really blame anyone personally.

I come away with the general feeling that this was unfair to Ruff, though I don't think any rules were broken or there was any malice on the part of the ref.

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10 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Some random thoughts:

Does a ref have to give an explanation for the caution?  This ref looks like he is trying to give an explanation, and ultimately Ruff is saying that his failure to understand the explanation led to the next (and third caution).  Ultimately, no one is aruging that Ruff didn't deserve the cautions.  Ruff should know how to properly start from the bottom.  

It seems like the ref followed the rules as written.  Not sure anything else can be done as far as overturning the result of the match.

By Ruff giving the "thumb up" signal during the explanation, I feel like the ref thought everything was communicated properly.  Ruff says the "thumb up" sign was the way he was asking the ref if what he (Ruff) motioned was the correct reason for the caution.  This sequence was very unfortunate and I believe lead to what ulimately is the controversy surrounding this match.

This whole thing seems like it could have been handled a little better by many parties.  The ref could have been prepped better (this is what to expect, this is how to handle certain situations, etc) by the coaches, tournament director, head of refs, etc.  The ref could have been more aware of the situation as it unfolded.  The coaches could have made sure a comunication plan was in place prior to the Finals match, even though they encountered no problems in previous matches.   Between Ruff and his coaches, Ruff should have been aware that he was losing 1-0 instead of tied 0-0.  Having said all this, the situation occured in SV of a state final in real time. It all happend so quickly, hard to really blame anyone personally.

I come away with the general feeling that this was unfair to Ruff, though I don't think any rules were broken or there was any malice on the part of the ref.

Haven't watched the video yet but how the heck is it unfair to the kid?  He's in the f'ing state finals, he should know the proper starting position.

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Haven't watched the video yet but how the heck is it unfair to the kid?  He's in the f'ing state finals, he should know the proper starting position.

That's the thing, I can't come up with one good reason.  I just get that feeling.  I suppose it comes from not knowing why he was cautioned the 2nd time.  That seems to have led directly to the third caution that gave the only point in the match.

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14 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Some random thoughts:

Does a ref have to give an explanation for the caution?  This ref looks like he is trying to give an explanation, and ultimately Ruff is saying that his failure to understand the explanation led to the next (and third caution).  Ultimately, no one is aruging that Ruff didn't deserve the cautions.  Ruff should know how to properly start from the bottom.  

It seems like the ref followed the rules as written.  Not sure anything else can be done as far as overturning the result of the match.

By Ruff giving the "thumb up" signal during the explanation, I feel like the ref thought everything was communicated properly.  Ruff says the "thumb up" sign was the way he was asking the ref if what he (Ruff) motioned was the correct reason for the caution.  This sequence was very unfortunate and I believe lead to what ulimately is the controversy surrounding this match.

This whole thing seems like it could have been handled a little better by many parties.  The ref could have been prepped better (this is what to expect, this is how to handle certain situations, etc) by the coaches, tournament director, head of refs, etc.  The ref could have been more aware of the situation as it unfolded.  The coaches could have made sure a comunication plan was in place prior to the Finals match, even though they encountered no problems in previous matches.   Between Ruff and his coaches, Ruff should have been aware that he was losing 1-0 instead of tied 0-0.  Having said all this, the situation occured in SV of a state final in real time. It all happend so quickly, hard to really blame anyone personally.

I come away with the general feeling that this was unfair to Ruff, though I don't think any rules were broken or there was any malice on the part of the ref.

I have had coaches approach me (on more than one occasion) and let me know their athlete was hearing impaired and what works with him.  (Blow the whistle extra loud, for instance).  But just knowing of the issue is helpful.  

Honestly, if I am the coach, I talk to the head ref before the finals and explain the situation and (at the very least) have him relay it to the two officials assigned to that match.  

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9 minutes ago, jchapman said:

That's the thing, I can't come up with one good reason.  I just get that feeling.  I suppose it comes from not knowing why he was cautioned the 2nd time.  That seems to have led directly to the third caution that gave the only point in the match.

Just watched the video.

The first caution is at 6:20 when he was on top, for not being behind the elbow, which the ref also explained and then he didn't mess up anymore.

The second caution is at 14:35, where the ref explains it then calls the caution AND holds up 2 fingers I assume to indicate that that's his second caution and the next one is a point.

Wrestler resets again in the wrong position, and the ref explains AGAIN, WITHOUT calling a caution (surprisingly IMO, no complaints from opposing coaches).

They wrestle then go out of bounds.  On the restart at around 15:15 is where the 3rd caution happens.  You can see the ref crouch down and I bet he was thinking to himself, "man do I really want to call this right now," but ultimately he does which I agree with because it was pretty blatant.

Great job by the ref.   All the right calls.

Also (if we were assuming he knew the proper starting position), why didn't he choose bottom in the 3rd period?
 

 

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6 hours ago, AHamilton said:

It is not my interpretation.  It is the interpretation of the association that I belong to.  It makes things easier.  The bottom guy wiggles his hips a little... that is enough to put it on the top guy.  Double stall on the mat stinks, as it leads to a re-start.

I am not a huge fan of the top guy riding parallel, but I don't think that top is stalling "no matter what the bottom man is doing."  If the bottom guy makes SOME effort, then I look to the top guy for stalling.  Double stall on the mat really doesn't work, as it leads to a restart. 

I don't see an issue with double stalling, honestly I think that's a call that should be made more also.  If the top guy doesn't want a restart, then don't stall!

 

6 hours ago, AHamilton said:

And it is not inconsistent if it is consistently called that way... like in freestyle, if you are put on the shot clock in the first, you generally aren't in the second.

Eh I'd disagree, I actually almost made a comment about FS in my earlier reply.   I'm not a freestyle expert but to me it doesn't seem like it can really be "passivity" if you're just alternating who you call it on.

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33 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don't see an issue with double stalling, honestly I think that's a call that should be made more also.  If the top guy doesn't want a restart, then don't stall!

 

Eh I'd disagree, I actually almost made a comment about FS in my earlier reply.   I'm not a freestyle expert but to me it doesn't seem like it can really be "passivity" if you're just alternating who you call it on.

The problem is, this rewards the stalling bottom guy.

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Just watched the video.

The first caution is at 6:20 when he was on top, for not being behind the elbow, which the ref also explained and then he didn't mess up anymore.

The second caution is at 14:35, where the ref explains it then calls the caution AND holds up 2 fingers I assume to indicate that that's his second caution and the next one is a point.

Wrestler resets again in the wrong position, and the ref explains AGAIN, WITHOUT calling a caution (surprisingly IMO, no complaints from opposing coaches).

They wrestle then go out of bounds.  On the restart at around 15:15 is where the 3rd caution happens.  You can see the ref crouch down and I bet he was thinking to himself, "man do I really want to call this right now," but ultimately he does which I agree with because it was pretty blatant.

Great job by the ref.   All the right calls.

Also (if we were assuming he knew the proper starting position), why didn't he choose bottom in the 3rd period?
 

 

I just re-watched the video, all three cautions are extremely obvious. 

Ruff chose top in the 2nd period after Garcia won the flip and deferred.  Then Garcia chose bottom in the 3rd.  Regardless, why did Ruff choose top?  I guess he thought his best chance of scoring against a soon to be 4Xer was to try a bunch of junior high leg riding turns.

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8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I see something entirely different.  I often see people who attempt zero offense during the course of the match expecting the ref to change the tune and award multiple stalls for the other guy blocking out multiple attacks.  They often get it, which is a cryin' shame.

The problem is nobody gets ~anything^, in the last 30 seconds of any match, because refs swallow their whistles...sort of like what happens in the 3rd period of NHL hockey playoff games...

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19 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I just re-watched the video, all three cautions are extremely obvious. 

Ruff chose top in the 2nd period after Garcia won the flip and deferred.  Then Garcia chose bottom in the 3rd.  Regardless, why did Ruff choose top?  I guess he thought his best chance of scoring against a soon to be 4Xer was to try a bunch of junior high leg riding turns.

Ah you're right about him choosing top.   So a D1 commit got ridden for 4 minutes by a guy who doesn't know proper referee's position? He may need to work on his bottom wrestling before he gets to college.

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2 hours ago, jchapman said:

By Ruff giving the "thumb up" signal during the explanation, I feel like the ref thought everything was communicated properly.  Ruff says the "thumb up" sign was the way he was asking the ref if what he (Ruff) motioned was the correct reason for the caution.  This sequence was very unfortunate and I believe lead to what ulimately is the controversy surrounding this match.

"I was putting my thumbs up asking 'is this good? is this what you want?"

It's an unfortunate incident, but Ruff's explanation that his "thumbs up" sign was a question and not confirmation that he understood seems nonsensical. I think he definitely chose the wrong gesture.  Most of us would interpret a "thumbs up" as "OK, I got it."

Edited by HurricaneWrestling2

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2 hours ago, jchapman said:

Some random thoughts:

Does a ref have to give an explanation for the caution?  This ref looks like he is trying to give an explanation, and ultimately Ruff is saying that his failure to understand the explanation led to the next (and third caution).  Ultimately, no one is aruging that Ruff didn't deserve the cautions.  Ruff should know how to properly start from the bottom.  

It seems like the ref followed the rules as written.  Not sure anything else can be done as far as overturning the result of the match.

By Ruff giving the "thumb up" signal during the explanation, I feel like the ref thought everything was communicated properly.  Ruff says the "thumb up" sign was the way he was asking the ref if what he (Ruff) motioned was the correct reason for the caution.  This sequence was very unfortunate and I believe lead to what ulimately is the controversy surrounding this match.

This whole thing seems like it could have been handled a little better by many parties.  The ref could have been prepped better (this is what to expect, this is how to handle certain situations, etc) by the coaches, tournament director, head of refs, etc.  The ref could have been more aware of the situation as it unfolded.  The coaches could have made sure a comunication plan was in place prior to the Finals match, even though they encountered no problems in previous matches.   Between Ruff and his coaches, Ruff should have been aware that he was losing 1-0 instead of tied 0-0.  Having said all this, the situation occured in SV of a state final in real time. It all happend so quickly, hard to really blame anyone personally.

I come away with the general feeling that this was unfair to Ruff, though I don't think any rules were broken or there was any malice on the part of the ref.

 

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Haven't watched the video yet but how the heck is it unfair to the kid?  He's in the f'ing state finals, he should know the proper starting position.

 

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

That's the thing, I can't come up with one good reason.  I just get that feeling.  I suppose it comes from not knowing why he was cautioned the 2nd time.  That seems to have led directly to the third caution that gave the only point in the match.

 

1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

I have had coaches approach me (on more than one occasion) and let me know their athlete was hearing impaired and what works with him.  (Blow the whistle extra loud, for instance).  But just knowing of the issue is helpful.  

Honestly, if I am the coach, I talk to the head ref before the finals and explain the situation and (at the very least) have him relay it to the two officials assigned to that match.  

 

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Just watched the video.

The first caution is at 6:20 when he was on top, for not being behind the elbow, which the ref also explained and then he didn't mess up anymore.

The second caution is at 14:35, where the ref explains it then calls the caution AND holds up 2 fingers I assume to indicate that that's his second caution and the next one is a point.

Wrestler resets again in the wrong position, and the ref explains AGAIN, WITHOUT calling a caution (surprisingly IMO, no complaints from opposing coaches).

They wrestle then go out of bounds.  On the restart at around 15:15 is where the 3rd caution happens.  You can see the ref crouch down and I bet he was thinking to himself, "man do I really want to call this right now," but ultimately he does which I agree with because it was pretty blatant.

Great job by the ref.   All the right calls.

Also (if we were assuming he knew the proper starting position), why didn't he choose bottom in the 3rd period?
 

 

 

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I don't see an issue with double stalling, honestly I think that's a call that should be made more also.  If the top guy doesn't want a restart, then don't stall!

 

Eh I'd disagree, I actually almost made a comment about FS in my earlier reply.   I'm not a freestyle expert but to me it doesn't seem like it can really be "passivity" if you're just alternating who you call it on.

 

26 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

The problem is, this rewards the stalling bottom guy.

 

20 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Eh, I don't think getting warned with stalling is really a reward, but to each their own...

 

14 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I just re-watched the video, all three cautions are extremely obvious. 

Ruff chose top in the 2nd period after Garcia won the flip and deferred.  Then Garcia chose bottom in the 3rd.  Regardless, why did Ruff choose top?  I guess he thought his best chance of scoring against a soon to be 4Xer was to try a bunch of junior high leg riding turns.

Fantastic discussion!  My experience with wrestling is really limited and I don't know the nuances.

 

As I mentioned before, I watched this live NETV (our local PBS station) which carries most state final events.  The wrestling ones are interesting because they have the finals for each weight go on at the same time.  They changed the structure so that they split the Classes up over the week, so Classes B (Garcia v Ruff) and C went and you watch it in split screen until one match ends.  That is what happened here, so the Garcia v Ruff match went full screen for all of the OT period.

 

Twitter was going crazy at one point with most people really upset for Ruff and a few that were saying the ref was correct (which is the consensus here as well).  The first thing that came to my mind was that there wasn't much to blame when you left it 0-0 for so long  -- I still think the coaches for Ruff had to try something to get their man to notice, but maybe I don't know what is allowable.  The closest there were to any points was a Garcia take down attempt I believe.  

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