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Where will S Lee fit in the pantheon of four timers?

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4 minutes ago, TheOhioState said:

Stieber won Big Ten x4 and NCAA x 4.

Spencer Lee finished 3rd and 2nd in the Big Ten his first two years.

As great as he is, he's probably not "definitely ahead" of Logan Stieber.
 

Agree. Lee lost to the wrestler from Oregon, to SeaBass 2x, got pinned vs Okie St., and lost to Nato. Even if we hand him the NCAA for this year, it is watered down and the weight has basically cleared out so thinly that people thought Ragusin could make this year's final. All of this hurts Spencer Lee vs the other 4 timers, imo of course. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

Agree. Lee lost to the wrestler from Oregon, to SeaBass 2x, got pinned vs Okie St., and lost to Nato. Even if we hand him the NCAA for this year, it is watered down and the weight has basically cleared out so thinly that people thought Ragusin could make this year's final. All of this hurts Spencer Lee vs the other 4 timers, imo of course. 

LOL.  I see you've shifted your narrative from "Iowa is going to blow the field away" to now claim this is a watered down field, despite there being no evidence for that.  Fight the good fight on two fronts, sir.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

LOL.  I see you've shifted your narrative from "Iowa is going to blow the field away" to now claim this is a watered down field, despite there being no evidence for that.  Fight the good fight on two fronts, sir.

Hey, both of these things can be true. The field can be watered down AND Iowa can still be better than everyone else. 

And there is evidence the field for NCAAs is watered down. No Ivies. Lots of problems for lots of teams and their wrestlers. You have to know, Dr. Counselor, that the miniscule competition of the PSU freshmen hampered their development. Look at Bartlett's 3 losses this year. Close to #1 and a SV and 1 pt loss at Bigs, none of which are offset by the myriad wins he'd have in a normal year. And PSU is starting to clearly look like the #2 team again, despite this morning's relatively poor (by PSU standards) showing. 

Iowa will win going away in 2 weeks, and their experience is a big part of that. Just accept it and be happy. You don't have to win every argument or beat them all to death. 

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Just now, TBar1977 said:

Hey, both of these things can be true. The field can be watered down AND Iowa can still be better than everyone else. 

And there is evidence the field for NCAAs is watered down. No Ivies. Lots of problems for lots of teams and their wrestlers. You have to know, Dr. Counselor, that the miniscule competition of the PSU freshmen hampered their development. Look at Bartlett's 3 losses this year. Close to #1 and a SV and 1 pt loss at Bigs, none of which are offset by the myriad wins he'd have in a normal year. And PSU is starting to clearly look like the #2 team again, despite this morning's relatively poor (by PSU standards) showing. 

Iowa will win going away in 2 weeks, and their experience is a big part of that. Just accept it and be happy. You don't have to win every argument or beat them all to death. 

You're literally starting arguments about the coming NCAA field to try to denigrate Iowa's potential title.  It's not even subtle.  You can't make a statement on a message board and then get pissy when people comment on it.

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8 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're literally starting arguments about the coming NCAA field to try to denigrate Iowa's potential title.  It's not even subtle.  You can't make a statement on a message board and then get pissy when people comment on it.

I call them all as I see them.

Iowa fans derided me when I got the NCAA team champ right every year the past 9 years. Called me a homer. I will get this one right too. Its Iowa's to lose, which they won't because they are way too experienced compared to everyone else. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

I call them all as I see them.

Iowa fans derided me when I got the NCAA team champ right every year the past 9 years. Called me a homer. I will get this one right too. Its Iowa's to lose, which they won't because they are way too experienced compared to everyone else. 

Changing the subject.  Again.

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26 minutes ago, TheOhioState said:

Stieber won Big Ten x4 and NCAA x 4.

Spencer Lee finished 3rd and 2nd in the Big Ten his first two years.

As great as he is, he's probably not "definitely ahead" of Logan Stieber.
 

I agree but Logan lost to a true freshman as a senior and Spencer is most likely going to bonus everyone he faces his last 2 years in college so I felt that dominance would give him a bump over Logan...looking at results of pat smith I’d probably put him 5th not Stieber 

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5 hours ago, NJDan said:

Oh, right, next year would be his "free" year. I guess the only way to win five is to win as a freshman this year.

To be a 5x you would have to win as a freshman this year OR, I think, would have had to take an Olympic redshirt last year after winning every year you competed before that. So Mekhi Lewis could do it. Yianni could have if the Ivy League had allowed competition this year and if he competed (those who know the rules better than me would have to say if any other Ivy specific rules about eligibility clocks would have kicked in, but it's moot anyway because he's not getting the "free" year this year).  

On the thread topic, a couple of points about Lee.  First, no redshirt.  I think that weighs heavily in his favor in the GOAT discussion (vs for instance Stieber and Smith).  Second, with respect to his losses, he put himself on the line both his championship years at far, far less than his best.  

His freshman year he had major knee surgery the prior spring.  So for instance the Bresser loss he was still basically getting off rehab.  He wasn't able to cut loose without the giant brace and with his real mindset until NCAAs and that was a sight to behold.  He just tore through the field including dominating one past and one future champ. 

Sophomore year he had what was probably a severe virus.  He was visibly weak in the Picc and first Rivera loss, not really himself even through NCAAs and still won without being seriously challenged. 

Lots of guys get injured and sick, I know.  But it's pretty special to be that impaired and win two NCAAs while never being in a match with an outcome ever in doubt. 

That this is a crazy year shouldn't count against him. Not his fault. And the flip side is that he got cheated out of last year in which he was Hodge dominating. Last year and this he has been without major physical impairment and looks like the same killing machine as at his first NCAA.  Foley is a really good wrestler and Lee made it look like a junior high mismatch today -- that was ridiculous. 

I would probably put Dake 1 because no redshirt and the quality of competition and wins at his NCAAs, and Cael 2 because of 159-0 and dominance.  But to me Lee, who may be a 3x Hodge, looks like a solid third and in kind of a GOAT pantheon with the other two if he wins out.

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10 minutes ago, drag it said:

 

I would probably put Dake 1 because no redshirt and the quality of competition and wins at his NCAAs, and Cael 2 because of 159-0 and dominance.  But to me Lee, who may be a 3x Hodge, looks like a solid third and in kind of a GOAT pantheon with the other two if he wins out.

Yea but something that will go against Spencer (which isn’t his fault) is the competition they faced... Logan beat JO, Ramos, Devin Carter and port while taking out zain in the semis...  Lee beat a injured suriano, then Rivera was upset and he dominates mueller, then this year outside him 125 couldn’t be any weaker and next year he ll probably be facing someone like Glory, so Logan went through some all timers and one of the best wrestlers to never win a title (Carter) 

unfortunately for Spencer,  Fix only wrestles 125 from April- November and moves up for folkstyle And suriano basically just quit college so Lee doesn’t get a chance to build his big time wins up 

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20 minutes ago, drag it said:

To be a 5x you would have to win as a freshman this year OR, I think, would have had to take an Olympic redshirt last year after winning every year you competed before that. So Mekhi Lewis could do it. Yianni could have if the Ivy League had allowed competition this year and if he competed (those who know the rules better than me would have to say if any other Ivy specific rules about eligibility clocks would have kicked in, but it's moot anyway because he's not getting the "free" year this year).  

On the thread topic, a couple of points about Lee.  First, no redshirt.  I think that weighs heavily in his favor in the GOAT discussion (vs for instance Stieber and Smith).  Second, with respect to his losses, he put himself on the line both his championship years at far, far less than his best.  

His freshman year he had major knee surgery the prior spring.  So for instance the Bresser loss he was still basically getting off rehab.  He wasn't able to cut loose without the giant brace and with his real mindset until NCAAs and that was a sight to behold.  He just tore through the field including dominating one past and one future champ. 

Sophomore year he had what was probably a severe virus.  He was visibly weak in the Picc and first Rivera loss, not really himself even through NCAAs and still won without being seriously challenged. 

Lots of guys get injured and sick, I know.  But it's pretty special to be that impaired and win two NCAAs while never being in a match with an outcome ever in doubt. 

That this is a crazy year shouldn't count against him. Not his fault. And the flip side is that he got cheated out of last year in which he was Hodge dominating. Last year and this he has been without major physical impairment and looks like the same killing machine as at his first NCAA.  Foley is a really good wrestler and Lee made it look like a junior high mismatch today -- that was ridiculous. 

I would probably put Dake 1 because no redshirt and the quality of competition and wins at his NCAAs, and Cael 2 because of 159-0 and dominance.  But to me Lee, who may be a 3x Hodge, looks like a solid third and in kind of a GOAT pantheon with the other two if he wins out.

I love Dake but putting him over Sanderson is just silly.  Dake lost to guys Sanderson would have majored or teched. Sorry but a 4 loss guy isn’t better than 159-0.

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I think Spencer would have crushed Suriano, et al every year.

Honestly it’s kind of sad 125 is crappy this year because it’s diminishing his legacy. Hopefully the 125 weight class improves and stratifies a bit more next year; I don’t want it to be musical chairs from 2-10.


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41 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're literally starting arguments about the coming NCAA field to try to denigrate Iowa's potential title.  It's not even subtle.  You can't make a statement on a message board and then get pissy when people comment on it.

TBar thinking we don't all see what he's doing

35814354-0-image-a-25_1605697905033.jpg

Edited by uncle bernard

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6 minutes ago, Le duke said:

I think Spencer would have crushed Suriano, et al every year.

Honestly it’s kind of sad 125 is crappy this year because it’s diminishing his legacy. Hopefully the 125 weight class improves and stratifies a bit more next year; I don’t want it to be musical chairs from 2-10.


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A healthy suriano doesn’t get crushed by anyone in the world his weight...I’ve definitely favor Lee but suriano can beat anyone when he brings his best 

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7 minutes ago, Le duke said:

I think Spencer would have crushed Suriano, et al every year.

Honestly it’s kind of sad 125 is crappy this year because it’s diminishing his legacy. Hopefully the 125 weight class improves and stratifies a bit more next year; I don’t want it to be musical chairs from 2-10.


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Considering Iowa should easily win the dual next year maybe we see Spencer bump up and wrestle Fix , I think Lee would be 100 down to do it the question would be if brands lets him 

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A healthy suriano doesn’t get crushed by anyone in the world his weight...I’ve definitely favor Lee but suriano can beat anyone when he brings his best 

Crushed might not be the best descriptor, I agree, but I think Lee is still the 125lb Folk favorite against any man who currently walks the earth.


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9 hours ago, Mokoma said:

I love Dake but putting him over Sanderson is just silly.  Dake lost to guys Sanderson would have majored or teched. Sorry but a 4 loss guy isn’t better than 159-0.

Dake won a national championship against a strong field 9 months after graduating from high school.  

He got over 6 minutes of riding time in tattooing a future national champ/Olympian on Saturday night the next year.

He was undefeated the next two years.  He beat a future national champ as a junior.  His senior year he went out of his way to move up to wrestle the defending Hodge winner (who then won another Hodge and a dominant world championship), who he beat three times in three different ways.  

He beat 2 Iowa and 2 Penn State guys in his four finals matches. 

He did this while graduating with strong grades as a 4x academic all American at an Ivy League school, an academic load unlike Iowa State's which will surely cause a college wrestler to have some off weeks. 

I think it's silly to say that it's silly to say that that record cannot be thought of as better than a wrestler who had a year to lift, train, and get used to college competition in matches that didn't count before putting it on the line for three days in March.  If Cael (who is a giant among giants, don't get me wrong) was so clearly superior to Dake that it's silly to suggest otherwise, then why didn't he blow everyone's doors off at the toughest tournament around in the March after he graduated from high school?

Edited by drag it

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Lee is an interesting one. He is clearly superior to anyone he will wrestle and an All-Timer. It sucks that everyone lost 2020, but when you throw in another free year 2022 so guys are getting an extra season it makes is a little hard to quantify. I am not sure what I think about guys winning in 2021 in general.

 

All that said Lee is as dominant as anyone that has wrestled.

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10 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Stieber had 3 loses ...N Dardanes 5-3 ..J.O. In a 1 takedown match   And zain 4-2 OT 

 

so unless Dardanes got him for a quick 2 I don’t believe he was ever turned 

Does that  include the losses he had as a true freshman that he got a reset on?

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10 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Stieber had 3 loses ...N Dardanes 5-3 ..J.O. In a 1 takedown match   And zain 4-2 OT 

 

so unless Dardanes got him for a quick 2 I don’t believe he was ever turned 

Does that  include the losses he had as a true freshman that he got a reset on?

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