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Where will S Lee fit in the pantheon of four timers?

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I would need to have at least a couple strong cocktails before I could seriously consider Dake over Cael and I think Jon Trenge, Veritus Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Brandon Eggum deserve a little more respect, frankly. They were at least as good as anyone Dake wrestled in the finals besides Taylor. 

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59 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Bless Y'all for being able to gratuitously overlook Steiber getting taken down by J.O. and put him over Spencer Lee on this list, but I just can't do it. 

I forget about it all the time. Yeah, Stieber shouldn't have won that match and the story should have been the amazing last second score by J.O.

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2 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

I would need to have at least a couple strong cocktails before I could seriously consider Dake over Cael and I think Jon Trenge, Veritus Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Brandon Eggum deserve a little more respect, frankly. They were at least as good as anyone Dake wrestled in the finals besides Taylor. 

"Besides Taylor."  Besides that unpleasant interruption, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?  Taylor is the most important part of Dake's claim to GOATness -- the 100 point font, bold-faced exclamation point on his career.  With three titles to his credit Dake went out of his way to change weights to take on the Hodge Trophy winner (and future again Hodge winner and then dominant world champion), beat him twice, and then after spotting him a takedown in the final, controlled him the rest of the match thoroughly enough that Taylor took off his ankle bands with time left on the clock.  

Trenge, Jones, Cormier, and Eggum were at least as good as Marion, Molinaro, and St. John?  Molinaro and St. John were both D1 national champions and 4x AAs.  None of Cael's four opponents were.  And if we're not pretending that the most anticipated NCAA final in history didn't happen, the totals for Dake's four finals opponents are 2 Hodges, 4 championships, and 15 AAs; the totals for Cael's four opponents are 0, 0, and 10.

Marion was the weak link in Dake's finals opponents who wasn't a nat'l champ/4x AA.  He didn't get a chance to AA his freshman year behind AA starter Dan Dennis.  After that he was a 2x D1 finalist (same as Jones and Trenge; more than Eggum and Cormier).  He lost in the finals in a good match to Dake, and in overtime to 2x nat'l champ/4x Big Ten champ Russell.  The other year he lost in the semis in overtime to eventual champ Russell on a series of some of the most controversial calls of the decade. 

With all that (and no redshirt!), I think that a fan can seriously consider Dake over Cael sober.  That doesn't mean that people have to pick Dake over Cael, who is an all-time great and and extraordinary credit to his sport.  It just means that Dake frankly deserves a little more respect than saying you'd have to be drunk to consider him the GOAT.

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4 hours ago, madcat11 said:

Finding you (and Kong) beating that drum is the only thing more predictable.

The thing is I actually like Steiber,. I was one of the few guys in the forum who still predicted great things for him after he broke his hand in his first D1 tourney and finished 6th. But because of his fake title versus Oliver and a blind referee missing Ramos pinning him Steiber ended up a 4 timer. In my opine, with an asterisk. 

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On 3/6/2021 at 11:50 PM, VakAttack said:

You're literally starting arguments about the coming NCAA field to try to denigrate Iowa's potential title.  It's not even subtle.  You can't make a statement on a message board and then get pissy when people comment on it.

 

Edited by TFBJR
Conservation

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10 hours ago, drag it said:
"Besides Taylor."  Besides that unpleasant interruption, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?  Taylor is the most important part of Dake's claim to GOATness -- the 100 point font, bold-faced exclamation point on his career.  With three titles to his credit Dake went out of his way to change weights to take on the Hodge Trophy winner (and future again Hodge winner and then dominant world champion), beat him twice, and then after spotting him a takedown in the final, controlled him the rest of the match thoroughly enough that Taylor took off his ankle bands with time left on the clock.  
Trenge, Jones, Cormier, and Eggum were at least as good as Marion, Molinaro, and St. John?  Molinaro and St. John were both D1 national champions and 4x AAs.  None of Cael's four opponents were.  And if we're not pretending that the most anticipated NCAA final in history didn't happen, the totals for Dake's four finals opponents are 2 Hodges, 4 championships, and 15 AAs; the totals for Cael's four opponents are 0, 0, and 10.
Marion was the weak link in Dake's finals opponents who wasn't a nat'l champ/4x AA.  He didn't get a chance to AA his freshman year behind AA starter Dan Dennis.  After that he was a 2x D1 finalist (same as Jones and Trenge; more than Eggum and Cormier).  He lost in the finals in a good match to Dake, and in overtime to 2x nat'l champ/4x Big Ten champ Russell.  The other year he lost in the semis in overtime to eventual champ Russell on a series of some of the most controversial calls of the decade. 
With all that (and no redshirt!), I think that a fan can seriously consider Dake over Cael sober.  That doesn't mean that people have to pick Dake over Cael, who is an all-time great and and extraordinary credit to his sport.  It just means that Dake frankly deserves a little more respect than saying you'd have to be drunk to consider him the GOAT.


Oh, I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t consider going after and beating Taylor, which is maybe the most impressive single feat in college wrestling history, but that it’s already been discussed thoroughly and I still don’t think it trumps the four loses. I also meant that I had to get a few drinks to loosen my inhibitions on challenging my strong prior of Cael being the GOAT, not that you would have to be drunk to pick Dake.

I also don’t think career records of opponents, especially future ones, matter much to how good they were when you beat them, but that’s maybe too subjective for discussion.

Off topic: Who made a more stupid decision in the finals: Cormier not paying attention while cutting Cael and getting reversed, or Molinaro signing up voluntarily to be ground into mat dust for an entire extra period?


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Edited by GoNotQuietly

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5 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:


Oh, I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t consider going after and beating Taylor, which is maybe the most impressive single feat in college wrestling history, but that it’s already been discussed thoroughly and I still don’t think it trumps the four loses. I also meant that I had to get a few drinks to loosen my inhibitions on challenging my strong prior of Cael being the GOAT, not that you would have to be drunk to pick Dake.

I also don’t think career records of opponents, especially future ones, matter much to how good they were when you beat them, but that’s maybe too subjective for discussion.

Off topic: Who made a more stupid decision in the finals: Cormier not paying attention while cutting Cael and getting reversed, or Molinaro signing up voluntarily to be ground into mat dust for an entire extra period?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The four losses is the fly in the ointment, but I think in context it can be dealt with.  

First, by the no-redshirt point, in two ways, (a) because two of the losses were his true freshman year when most other guys are wrestling opens in no-risk matches; and (b) winning that championship nine months out of high school in itself to me is more impressive than four non-NCAA losses is bad.  

Second, he was so tough in the NCAAs when it counted.  His cumulative scores in those tournaments were crazy and I don't think he was ever in any danger of losing in any of the four.  Even against Humphreys, who had the only TD and who took him to OT, Dake wasn't in substantial danger because his mat wrestling was so superior.  

Third, I do cut him some slack as I've said before due to him being a very good student at an Ivy league school.  That academic stress is going to make the grind much worse over the long winter and in my opinion be a cause for flatness more so than the average D1 athlete.

On the career records question, point well taken about it only going so far, but in this case Molinaro and St. John both won theirs the very next year (Molinaro undefeated) which makes me think they were at or near that level when Dake beat them.  And the giant big ones it took to go up to Taylor's class isn't just icing on the cake, it's another cake on top of the cake.   

Nicely played with the Cormier/Molinaro question.  I vote for Molinaro because it was a conscious decision, whereas Cormier was a brain cramp/got caught snoozing.  Cormier, although he looked pretty ridiculous and embarrassing, got confused during live action more so than he deliberately did something.  Molinaro's mistake as I remember it was a slow motion train wreck.  He gets drilled into the mat the prior period, then there is a break between periods where the ref asks you what you want to do and your granted a few seconds to confer across the mat with your corner, he is told not to do it, AND HE DOES IT ANYWAY.  And it's not like the prior rideout was some kind of fluke; as alluded to above, Dake in his title run the year before won his closest match by overcoming Humphreys' takedowns with two quick escapes in regulation, Humphreys taking neutral to avoid the mat dust treatment, and then Dake dominating the OT with another quick escape and 30 seconds of dust grinding.  Knowing this, and having just gotten that treatment himself, Molinaro, literally showing visible pique, intentionally consigns himself to wearing 149 (probably 160+ by that time of the day) pounds on his back for two minutes and ending any chance he has at getting back into the match.

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Back specifically to the thread topic, and to the question of Lee actually becoming a four-timer, did anyone think he was limping after the final match yesterday?  He had the big knee brace on again over the weekend (and I think for some or all of the regular season matches), and I thought he was walking gingerly when he came off the mat.  Against this year's field, I don't see it making any difference if he's not feeling any worse at NCAAs than he was yesterday, and with two weeks to get ready hopefully he'll be fine even if he is banged up.  But I was curious if I was reading something into nothing yesterday.

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@drag it - I am enjoying your impassioned points for Dake.  I can definitely see a case being made.  That said, Cael took on all comers, and beat them, and often smashed them.  Yes, with a redshirt, but still.  It can be argued with, but it is hard.
 

And your last Q on Lee ... I didn’t notice any limp but I don’t like seeing that brace.  I want the guy as our 57kg for the Olympics (if it isn’t Vito) and am really hoping that knee isn’t going to hinder him.

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15 hours ago, drag it said:

And if we're not pretending that the most anticipated NCAA final in history didn't happen, the totals for Dake's four finals opponents are 2 Hodges, 4 championships, and 15 AAs; the totals for Cael's four opponents are 0, 0, and 10.

Marion was the weak link in Dake's finals opponents who wasn't a nat'l champ/4x AA.  He didn't get a chance to AA his freshman year behind AA starter Dan Dennis.  After that he was a 2x D1 finalist (same as Jones and Trenge; more than Eggum and Cormier).  He lost in the finals in a good match to Dake, and in overtime to 2x nat'l champ/4x Big Ten champ Russell.  The other year he lost in the semis in overtime to eventual champ Russell on a series of some of the most controversial calls of the decade. 

Even though Marion was Dake's "weak link" in the finals, as a frosh, Dake had to beat a future 3x World Team member in the semi-finals.

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30 minutes ago, nom said:

@drag it - I am enjoying your impassioned points for Dake.  I can definitely see a case being made.  That said, Cael took on all comers, and beat them, and often smashed them.  Yes, with a redshirt, but still.  It can be argued with, but it is hard.
 

And your last Q on Lee ... I didn’t notice any limp but I don’t like seeing that brace.  I want the guy as our 57kg for the Olympics (if it isn’t Vito) and am really hoping that knee isn’t going to hinder him.

Thanks much. 

My thing about the redshirt is, how confident are you that someone who didn't enter NCAAs nine months after graduating high school would have won if they had?  Cael was a colossus, and probably more dominant than Dake, but are you 90%+ sure that he would have won as a true freshman?  If not, then I think you can't dismiss Dake as GOAT.  Doesn't mean you have to go with Dake and punish Cael for using a redshirt 100% allowed and usually used under the rules, but in my opinion, you've got to give Dake serious due as a GOAT candidate based on that.

Totally with you on Spencer as our best medal candidate.  Vito is a beautiful wrestler and shows real potential for a senior level medal, but I think Spencer is solidly ahead of him at this point.  My recollection is that he's been off and on with the big brace the last few years, and he wasn't gimpy yesterday, so I don't think it's a big deal at the moment.  But he looked to me like he was favoring it a little, and your point is well taken, he's got to try to qualify pretty soon after the three day war when anyone, even Spencer Lee, is going to take some pounding.

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