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VakAttack

Did we ever figure out why Christian Lance forfeited to Gable

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9 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

but wrestled the next day?  Was he battling some sort of injury?  Gable is a brute of a wrestler, but none of the stuff he does is particularly brutal on the body, unlike say a Spencer.

I assumed Manning did not want a chance at injury.  More likely Lance gets hurt than he beats Gable. I hope Lance gets on the podium, but he had little or no chance, IMHO.  

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All I know is you can say what you want about the situation,   Lance still is one of the most impressive (and crazy)  Redshirt wrestlers ever.   Competed in 7 opens in 4 weeks as a redshirt and placed in 6 of the 7.  Huge hill to climb vs Steveson though.   It does sound like he might have received a cortizone type shot that evening though and again the following morning.  

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Yeah, I would bet, at the time, the plan was to default to 6th as to no exacerbate the injury.  Then after some treatment he was probably re-evaluated and decided to give it a go on the backside.  He ended up taking 5th, so it probably helped him.  On top of that, he probably thought he had a good chance against Kerkvliet after watching him get trounced by Gable.  Granted, that didn't work out for him, but he still placed higher than he would have if he defaulted to 6th.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Yeah, I would bet, at the time, the plan was to default to 6th as to no exacerbate the injury.  Then after some treatment he was probably re-evaluated and decided to give it a go on the backside.  He ended up taking 5th, so it probably helped him.  On top of that, he probably thought he had a good chance against Kerkvliet after watching him get trounced by Gable.  Granted, that didn't work out for him, but he still placed higher than he would have if he defaulted to 6th.

No. If that was the plan he would have MFF because that wouldn't count as a loss (a la Suriano in 2018). If he did that, he would be locked into defaulting back to 6th. He did the :01 second inj def because it allowed him to keep wrestling on the backside.

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4 hours ago, Swayz said:

All I know is you can say what you want about the situation,   Lance still is one of the most impressive (and crazy)  Redshirt wrestlers ever.   Competed in 7 opens in 4 weeks as a redshirt and placed in 6 of the 7.  Huge hill to climb vs Steveson though.   It does sound like he might have received a cortizone type shot that evening though and again the following morning.  

He also wrestled 120 as a freshman in high school and I believe had a losing record. He worked himself into a great story 

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6 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

No. If that was the plan he would have MFF because that wouldn't count as a loss (a la Suriano in 2018). If he did that, he would be locked into defaulting back to 6th. He did the :01 second inj def because it allowed him to keep wrestling on the backside.

You can MFF on the front and continue wrestling on the back.  There is nothing on the books to prohibit that, unless there is some obscure rule specific to the Big 10 tournament that I am unaware of.

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52 minutes ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

You can MFF on the front and continue wrestling on the back.  There is nothing on the books to prohibit that, unless there is some obscure rule specific to the Big 10 tournament that I am unaware of.

No. Once you mff- you're done. You have to default. However, you aren't specifically eliminated from the bracket.  So, if you mff in the semis, you place 6th. But, if you mff in the quarters or before, you mff that next cons round and are then eliminated because you lost twice prior to placing.

Art. 11. Losses Due to Illness or Injury. In a tournament, matches started and then lost due to injury default by illness or injury do not eliminate a competitor from further competition, except when a medical forfeit has been granted.

Edited by gimpeltf

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16 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

No. Once you mff- you're done. You have to default. However, you aren't specifically eliminated from the bracket.  So, if you mff in the semis, you place 6th. But, if you mff in the quarters or before, you mff that next cons round and are then eliminated because you lost twice prior to placing.

Art. 11. Losses Due to Illness or Injury. In a tournament, matches started and then lost due to injury default by illness or injury do not eliminate a competitor from further competition, except when a medical forfeit has been granted.

Are you sure about that? Didn't Ed Ruth suffer his only loss at NCAAs due to a medical default  and then roar through consos to take 3rd? Or was that not a medical default? 

I noticed that Ruth didn't look gimpy at all in consos that year, lol. I think trailing badly (7-2) while getting beat up by Amuchastegui completely took the starch out of him and encouraged his "injury".  I have little doubt Ruth would've been majored if the match continued to completion. 

Edited by TobusRex

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13 hours ago, VakAttack said:

but wrestled the next day?  Was he battling some sort of injury?  Gable is a brute of a wrestler, but none of the stuff he does is particularly brutal on the body, unlike say a Spencer.

Spencer bends a lot of joints in his matches, but it ain't easy being tossed around by a 285 pound brute either. Pretty interesting though, Spencer Lee has a rep as a great sportsman and general nice guy, but he has a fierce wrestling style. Steveson has a rep as a bit of an overbearing ass, and he's relatively gentle on the mat, lol. 

Edited by TobusRex

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12 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Are you sure about that? Didn't Ed Ruth suffer his only loss at NCAAs due to a medical default  and then roar through consos to take 3rd? Or was that not a medical default? 

I noticed that Ruth didn't look gimpy at all in consos that year, lol. I think trailing badly (7-2) while getting beat up by Amuchastegui completely took the starch out of him and encouraged his "injury".  I have little doubt Ruth would've been majored if the match continued to completion. 

I quoted the rule.

And a medical default is not a medical forfeit.

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34 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I guess I don't see much distinction. 

The distinction is that they are two different concepts designed for exactly this circumstance. If you blow the whistle the bout counts and you can continue. 

I was the head computer scorer at DIs for 20 years from '87 to '06.  The old rules in tise regards did allow forfeiting with the possibility to continue similar to the HS rule. But it generally required some medical backing for the tournament committee to allow it. At some point in the mid-90s, as I recall, I mentioned to the rules committee that it was difficult to show a distinction and that they should come up with a win-type (or loss-type in this case) so that it would be clear in the results what was going on. The next year they added this with the proviso that if you took this option you couldn't wrestle again and added the stipulation that it counts for the winner but not the loser. (That second part might have followed by a couple years). 

When someone comes to me and says that they don't want to wrestle a particular bout but they do later I tell them to default by going to the mat and letting the ref blow the whistle and then calling for a default. I don't judge why- sometimes it could be just to avoid a given opponent but often it's because they know it might take an hour or so to recuperate from something legit. I even tell them that in HS because if they forfeit and try to wrestle again the committee is likely to prevent them from doing so since it's up to them.

Edited by gimpeltf

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7 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I guess I don't see much distinction. 

It's the difference between an injury default and MFF. An injury default occurs after the match starts and goes down as a loss. A MFF happens before the match and does not count as a loss. You also don't have to take the mat. I think the rule exists for exactly this scenario. If you want to duck a match to save energy for the backside, the price you pay is a loss.

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