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rodneydeeeee

Penn STATE

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Oh yea....HUGE step below. They don't even belong on the same mat. :roll:

 

Is Dake "better"? Yes. Is your last statement ridiculously over-exaggerated? Also yes.

 

Do you believe that guys like Varner and McDonough are not a big step below Sanderson and Smith?

 

Yes I do believe they are - but you can not go simply by the numbers (and at the same time underestimate Taylors numbers - no matter how many titles he has at this point he still has only 3 NCAA losses and a Hodge to his name---but this is slightly besides the point). For example, Gable "only" has 2 titles - is he not on the level of Cael and Dake and Smith for this reason? I think most people would say no - despite "only" having 2 losses he is still up on that level. Do Cael, Dake, and Smith get inched ahead of Gable because they got it done on the big stage every time? Absolutely. Is Gable a HUGE step below these guys? Absolutely not.

 

This is the same reason I took issue with saying Taylor is a huge step below Dake.

 

And no knock to anybody being discussed in this thread - or anybody posting in it - but as otherworldly as Dake is Taylor is as well. His style/numbers/accomplishments/etc speak for themselves. It just so happens that Dake was in his weight class this year and edged him out - twice. Dake is a legend, it goes without saying. But Taylor is not a huge step below. They are on the same level (like Cael vs. Gable) - Dake is just slightly above given his accomplishments and also head to head victories we were all privileged to watch.

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Dake went 3-0 against Taylor this season and is now done wrestling Folkstyle after winning his fourth consecutive national title. I think at this point there is zero question at this point that Dake is better than Taylor. None. Dake is one of the best wrestlers in the history of the sport. Taylor will, at best, have a legacy similar to Varner's and at worst similar to McDonough's. A great, one of the best in the decade guys. But a huge step below Dake.

 

 

Don't you have a very qualified definition when you admit that Dake is better than Taylor?

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History will not look back and say Dake and Taylor are on the same level with Dake being slightly above. Sorry

 

Glad to know that you know the future.

 

All one has to do to counter "history" on that point, is refer to the fact that Taylor lost 3 to-the-wire decisions to Dake this year (one an exibition)...whether you like to believe it or not they are "on the same level" - im sure if you asked Kyle Dake himself he would tell you so. (Unless you are talking about accomplishments - which I am not - in which case I already said Dake has separated himself - obviously)

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History will not look back and say Dake and Taylor are on the same level with Dake being slightly above. Sorry

 

No knock on Taylor, but this is true.Well, unless Taylor shines on the international stage. Many would be suprised how sooo much detail gets lost over time. So many great wrestlers in the past have been largely forgotten because of only a match or two.

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There are fourteen 4x finalists.

 

FOUR-TIME FINALISTS (14)

Hutton, Dick (OKST, 47-50) - 1-1-2-1

Milkovich, Pat (MSU, 72-76) - 1-1-2-2

Kemp, Lee (WIS, 75-78) - 2-1-1-1

Burley, Darryl (LEH, 79-83) - 1-2-2-1

Banach, Ed (IOWA, 80-83) - 1-1-2-1

Goldman, Duane (IOWA, 83-86) - 2-2-2-1

Smith, Pat (OKST, 90-94) - 1-1-1-1

McIlravy, Lincoln (IOWA, 93-97) - 1-1-2-1

Branch, Mark (OKST, 94-97) - 1-2-2-1

Sanderson, Cael (ISU, 99-02) - 1-1-1-1

Mocco, Steve (IOWA/OKST, 02-06) - 2-1-1-2

Askren, Ben (MIZ, 04-07) - 2-2-1-1

Varner, Jake (ISU, 07-10) - 2-2-1-1

Dake, Kyle (CORN, 10-13) - 1-1-1-1

 

Just getting to the level of being a 4x finalist is pretty amazing. It is truly an elite group. However, even within that group only three wrestlers have gone all the way to become 4xNCAA Champions. Taylor has the chance next year to become the 15th member of the four time finalist club. When I look at that list there are some awesome names - Mocco, Askren, and Varner are all recent guys who were amazing wrestlers. But there is a reason only three guys ever have been four time champs. Those three guys are on a level above those other 11. And you are kidding yourself if you think that a decade from now people will remember Taylor at the same level as Dake. They'll remember him in the context of Dake taking out a lot of talented wrestlers on his path to four titles. But after going 3-0 against him this season Dake proved on the mat who was the better wrestler. You can argue until you are blue in the face that Dake is only 1% better. But that 1% is a vast gap that separates guys who show up once a generation from guys who show up 2-3 times a decade.

 

But even doing that you're getting ahead of yourself. A year ago everybody assumed McDonough was going to be joining that group of 14 this year. A lot can happen in one weekend in Oklahoma City.

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Just noticed from that list - since 1990 there has only been one season (1998) when there wasn't at least one wrestler in the process of becoming a four time finalist.

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It's kind of amazing that Varner is being used as the standard of a "disappointing career" by several posters, given that he did recently win some tournament over in London which was apparently somewhat competitive.

 

Don't forget the little freestyle match.

 

It truly amazes me how International and Freestyle matches/accomplishments are always brought up on this board, without fail, during a discussion of NCAA/Folkstyle careers.

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It's kind of amazing that Varner is being used as the standard of a "disappointing career" by several posters, given that he did recently win some tournament over in London which was apparently somewhat competitive.

 

Don't forget the little freestyle match.

 

It truly amazes me how International and Freestyle matches/accomplishments are always brought up on this board, without fail, during a discussion of NCAA/Folkstyle careers.

If Taylor had won the freestyle match you would use that as evidence as well. Were talking career's here.

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Why isn't Jordan Burroughs on that list? He won two years @NCAAs and then won two in a row when it actually counted. That makes him a four timer -- 1-1-1-1.

 

Taking this one step further: Alexander Karelin, the best college wrestler of all time?

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It's kind of amazing that Varner is being used as the standard of a "disappointing career" by several posters, given that he did recently win some tournament over in London which was apparently somewhat competitive.

 

Don't forget the little freestyle match.

 

It truly amazes me how International and Freestyle matches/accomplishments are always brought up on this board, without fail, during a discussion of NCAA/Folkstyle careers.

If Taylor had won the freestyle match you would use that as evidence as well. Were talking career's here.

 

No, I wouldn't. Not when we are discussing NCAA careers. The idea is pretty simple. Even the guy who I disagreed with in the first place can see it...here:

 

We're in the "College Wrestling" board and talking college careers.

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Dake/Taylor's freestyle match is relevant because it occurred during their folkstyle career.

 

You not seeing why this statement is wrong is the entire problem. Imagine if they had an exhibition Judo or Grappling match after the All star Classic. Would the outcome of that be relevant to their college careers too? Would it be an accurate way to determine which of them would win in folkstyle / and by how wide a margin? After all, it did occur during their folkstyle wrestling career. :roll:

 

Freestyle is a completely different set of rules and requires a completely different approach to being successful. It is borderline a different sport altogether (like Judo, Grappling, etc in my example) given the rule/scoring/technique differences.

 

Freestyle results are not relevant when discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments/comparisons/etc (especially when they occur while the athlete is focused full-time on folkstyle and not freestyle). It is an extremely simple idea to grasp, yet so many here refuse to do so.

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Remember when Askren manhandled Herbert in the NCAA finals? and then again years later at midlands? Do you think he could have done the same with freestyle rules?

 

Remember when Nevinger beat Ugi earlier this year? Think he'd do the same in a freestyle match?

 

Freestyle results should not be used in determining who is a better folkstylist and vice versa.

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When I see dake manhandle taylor in Freestyle, it looks the same to me as when he manhandled him in folkstyle.

 

Well I know you are just trolling. Those two one-point wins (one on a late reversal) and one OT ride out win (in the AS) were sure manhandle-ings!!!

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Dake/Taylor's freestyle match is relevant because it occurred during their folkstyle career.

 

You not seeing why this statement is wrong is the entire problem. Imagine if they had an exhibition Judo or Grappling match after the All star Classic. Would the outcome of that be relevant to their college careers too? Would it be an accurate way to determine which of them would win in folkstyle / and by how wide a margin? After all, it did occur during their folkstyle wrestling career. :roll:

 

Freestyle is a completely different set of rules and requires a completely different approach to being successful. It is borderline a different sport altogether (like Judo, Grappling, etc in my example) given the rule/scoring/technique differences.

 

Freestyle results are not relevant when discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments/comparisons/etc (especially when they occur while the athlete is focused full-time on folkstyle and not freestyle). It is an extremely simple idea to grasp, yet so many here refuse to do so.

 

Whether we like it or not, freestyle accomplishments are relevant to discussing collegiate athletes who also choose to compete in that style. Of course they're different, but there is a ton of overlap between the results of the 2 styles. Comparing freestyle to judo and grappling is silly.

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