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Dake/Taylor's freestyle match is relevant because it occurred during their folkstyle career.

 

You not seeing why this statement is wrong is the entire problem. Imagine if they had an exhibition Judo or Grappling match after the All star Classic. Would the outcome of that be relevant to their college careers too? Would it be an accurate way to determine which of them would win in folkstyle / and by how wide a margin? After all, it did occur during their folkstyle wrestling career. :roll:

 

Freestyle is a completely different set of rules and requires a completely different approach to being successful. It is borderline a different sport altogether (like Judo, Grappling, etc in my example) given the rule/scoring/technique differences.

 

Freestyle results are not relevant when discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments/comparisons/etc (especially when they occur while the athlete is focused full-time on folkstyle and not freestyle). It is an extremely simple idea to grasp, yet so many here refuse to do so.

 

Whether we like it or not, freestyle accomplishments are relevant to discussing collegiate athletes who also choose to compete in that style. Of course they're different, but there is a ton of overlap between the results of the 2 styles. Comparing freestyle to judo and grappling is silly.

 

Not in the way I actually did it. Please read more carefully.

 

I used that example to illustrate why bringing up freestyle results in a discussion of folkstyle careers/results/etc is a total non sequitur.

 

Freestyle has completely different rules and scoring. And it all but eliminates the top/bottom position from the wrestling. This is not debatable. I am not saying better or worse - but very different it is - this is a fact. Bringing up results in a freestyle match and then connecting those results (as evidence) to discussion of folkstyle is no different that bringing up results in a grappling match for the same reason.

 

Also, even more silly, saying they are relevant "because they occurred during their folkstyle career" is just nonsense - as I also pointed out.

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. Bringing up results in a freestyle match and then connecting those results (as evidence) to discussion of folkstyle is no different that bringing up results in a grappling match for the same reason. -Pa Fan

 

Why? Many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. I have predicted a TON of folkstyle results based off of freestyle meetings. It's entirely different from a grappling match. Most of the top wrestlers have wrestled freestyle since they were elementary schoolers and have a great deal of experience in that style. There is a great deal of overlap between folkstyle and freestyle results, do you deny this?

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Why? Many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle.

 

There is a great deal of overlap between folkstyle and freestyle results, do you deny this?

 

First of all, I was not even talking originally about results-crossover. But I will address it anyway since you mention it.

 

Yes, many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. Many more are not. For example: simply exposing/rolling over someone's back is points in free - not in folk. Throwing someone gets you automatic bonus points in freestyls - not in folk. Touch falls exist in free - not in folk. You can give up points while executing a move you are controlling in free - not in folk. Going out of bounds is a point in free - not in folk. Need I continue? (This is not even touching on the rule differences - i.e. locking hands, etc)

 

No, I don't deny that at all. How does that make it relevant to bring up freestyle results/accomplishments when we are discussing folkstyle careers? It is as much of a non sequitur as saying "Wrestler A is a 5 time Junior world grappling champion - so that counts towards his NCAA Wrestling accomplishments."

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Why? Many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle.

 

There is a great deal of overlap between folkstyle and freestyle results, do you deny this?

 

First of all, I was not even talking originally about results-crossover. But I will address it anyway since you mention it.

 

Yes, many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. Many more are not. For example: simply exposing/rolling over someone's back is points in free - not in folk. Throwing someone gets you automatic bonus points in freestyls - not in folk. Touch falls exist in free - not in folk. You can give up points while executing a move you are controlling in free - not in folk. Going out of bounds is a point in free - not in folk. Need I continue? (This is not even touching on the rule differences - i.e. locking hands, etc)

 

No, I don't deny that at all. How does that make it relevant to bring up freestyle results/accomplishments when we are discussing folkstyle careers? It is as much of a non sequitur as saying "Wrestler A is a 5 time Junior world grappling champion - so that counts towards his NCAA Wrestling accomplishments."

 

Good points. Usually when the top tier guys meet eachother in either style, the matches are decided by takedowns (especially in American matches). That is usually a pretty good guage for what would happen in a folkstyle matchup. Freestyle results have always been brought up when discussing folkstyle careers, at least for the past 50+ years. When you accomplish something major in the international styles, that says a lot about your overall skill as a wrestler. It's far from the only thing to consider, but to dismiss it completely is also a mistake. In fact, I know of no major wrestling figure who would ever dream of not considering freestyle results at all, and none who would say that grappling is just as relevant as freestyle when discussing folkstyle careers.

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Why? Many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle.

 

There is a great deal of overlap between folkstyle and freestyle results, do you deny this?

 

First of all, I was not even talking originally about results-crossover. But I will address it anyway since you mention it.

 

Yes, many of the scoring situations in freestyle are also scoring situations in folkstyle. Many more are not. For example: simply exposing/rolling over someone's back is points in free - not in folk. Throwing someone gets you automatic bonus points in freestyls - not in folk. Touch falls exist in free - not in folk. You can give up points while executing a move you are controlling in free - not in folk. Going out of bounds is a point in free - not in folk. Need I continue? (This is not even touching on the rule differences - i.e. locking hands, etc)

 

No, I don't deny that at all. How does that make it relevant to bring up freestyle results/accomplishments when we are discussing folkstyle careers? It is as much of a non sequitur as saying "Wrestler A is a 5 time Junior world grappling champion - so that counts towards his NCAA Wrestling accomplishments."

 

Good points. Usually when the top tier guys meet eachother in either style, the matches are decided by takedowns (especially in American matches). That is usually a pretty good guage for what would happen in a folkstyle matchup. Freestyle results have always been brought up when discussing folkstyle careers, at least for the past 50+ years. When you accomplish something major in the international styles, that says a lot about your overall skill as a wrestler. It's far from the only thing to consider, but to dismiss it completely is also a mistake. In fact, I know of no major wrestling figure who would ever dream of not considering freestyle results at all, and none who would say that grappling is just as relevant as freestyle when discussing folkstyle careers.

 

I dont dispute anything up until the bolded. Freestyle and Folkstyle success are not mutually exclusive - and they are not interdependent. You can be great at folk at not so good at free or vice versa (for whatever reason).

 

My original point is pretty straight forward - when discussing NCAA folkstyle careers/accomplishments/etc - there is no reason to bring up freestyle at all (be it for results comparison, accomplishments, what have you). It is a totally different entity - and it is akin to bring up the fact that someone is a Junior World grappling champion. It is not relevant to the discussion being had - no matter how many similarities the two share.

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My original point is pretty straight forward - when discussing NCAA folkstyle careers/accomplishments/etc - there is no reason to bring up freestyle at all (be it for results comparison, accomplishments, what have you). --Pa Fan

 

I understand your point, I just disagree with it. I don't think you've given a good reason yet for why we should never consider freestyle results/accomplishments when discussing folkstyle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying we should not discuss freestyle results when discussing/predicting outcomes of potential matchups in fokstyle? Or that it should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in collegiate history?

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I understand your point, I just disagree with it. I don't think you've given a good reason yet for why we should never consider freestyle results/accomplishments when discussing folkstyle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Are you saying we should not discuss freestyle results when discussing/predicting outcomes of potential matchups in fokstyle?

 

Or that it should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in collegiate history?

 

I am not saying that specifically right now, although I do agree with it. While on the whole there is much overlap in who is successful in free will also be success to basically the same degree in folk - this is/can be very misleading. The results do not translate directly from freestyle to folkstyle, especially if you are comparing two wrestlers head to head (such as Dake and Taylor)- again due to the rule/scoring differences in freestyle. If you are talking generally in the sense that you are saying "Wrestler X is very successful in freestyle - therefore he will also be successful in folk" - ok. But if you are speaking specifically about match ups saying "Wrestler X beat Wrestler Y 6-0, 6-0 in freestyle, therefore he will obviously be much better (by a similar margin) in folk" - no, not so much. There are many factors that come into play (rules, scoring, etc) in the second scenario that can be overlooked in the first.

 

No, it certainly should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in college history. If that were the case, John Smith should basically be considered a better Collegiate wrestler than Cael Sanderson, based on his Multiple World and Olympic titles - or vice versa Cael should be considered a better international wrestler than John Smith based on his 4 NCAA titles and undefeated career. --- Going either way it is silly - the two are totally different entities...that is the point I am trying to make.

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We were comparing Dake/Taylor and how Dake is slightly better than Taylor (Your words). I brought up freestyle as another example of Dake being better. How you brought Cael and Smith into it to justify your stance I'll never know. Freestyle and Folkstyle is still wrestling and comparing Dake to Taylor because they wrestled each other makes perfect sense........................to some.

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We were comparing Dake/Taylor and how Dake is slightly better than Taylor (Your words). I brought up freestyle as another example of Dake being better. How you brought Cael and Smith into it to justify your stance I'll never know. Freestyle and Folkstyle is still wrestling and comparing Dake to Taylor because they wrestled each other makes perfect sense........................to some.

 

Maybe you should read back through the conversation since you stopped participating. If you still don't understand after doing so, then there is nothing more I can say to make you understand.

 

Every point you try to make here I have addressed already.

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No, it certainly should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in college history. If that were the case, John Smith should basically be considered a better Collegiate wrestler than Cael Sanderson, based on his Multiple World and Olympic titles - or vice versa Cael should be considered a better international wrestler than John Smith based on his 4 NCAA titles and undefeated career. --- Going either way it is silly - the two are totally different entities...that is the point I am trying to make.

 

Okay, I disagree but fair enough. Last thing, it makes far less sense (if it makes any sense at all) to read collegiate results into freestyle. It's pretty much a one way street, two completely different levels of competition.

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No, it certainly should not be a factor considered when comparing a wrestler's place in college history. If that were the case, John Smith should basically be considered a better Collegiate wrestler than Cael Sanderson, based on his Multiple World and Olympic titles - or vice versa Cael should be considered a better international wrestler than John Smith based on his 4 NCAA titles and undefeated career. --- Going either way it is silly - the two are totally different entities...that is the point I am trying to make.

 

Okay, I disagree but fair enough. Last thing, it makes far less sense (if it makes any sense at all) to read collegiate results into freestyle. It's pretty much a one way street, two completely different levels of competition.

 

Well that is just having your cake, and eating it too. If it goes one way - it has to go the other way too. Good thing I don't think it should really even go the first way :D

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Okay, I disagree but fair enough. Last thing, it makes far less sense (if it makes any sense at all) to read collegiate results into freestyle. It's pretty much a one way street, two completely different levels of competition.

 

Well that is just having your cake, and eating it too. If it goes one way - it has to go the other way too. Good thing I don't think it should really even go the first way :D

 

No it isn't. Because they are two completely different levels of competition. It makes no sense to take results against significantly weaker competition, and using it to make an argument against someone of a higher level. In the case of guys like Uetake, Smith, etc, many use their international results to accentuate their ncaa career, no knowledgable person has ever used ncaa results to argue for international placement.

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So, it makes no sense to take results against "weaker" NCAA competition to evaluate freestyle skill level - but it makes perfect sense to take results in a completely different style (different rules, scoring, etc) and evaluate folkstyle skill level?

 

My friend, that is what I call "having your cake, and eating it too!"

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It seems like everyone ditched their own respective teams to become a Dake fan and point out that he is better than Taylor. Is that the only argument you guys can win? Honestly.

 

I'm not talking about some credible posters, but some of the garbage that people post is ridiculous. Dake is good, OK. Guess what, Penn State as a whole is better. So what if we think Ed Ruth is better. He is. Who cares if we still think David Taylor has a shot to beat him. He does. Go scream Dake some more cause that's your only line of defense.

 

I'm sorry, I don't care if you wrestle 1 time, 4 times, or 24 times, 1 point win ALWAYS has the ability to be flipped.

 

Well it hasnt in 3 matches

4

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Total digression, but...

 

I am with superold on the topic of freestyle having relevance. Should freestyle results outweigh folkstyle results? No. But should they be completely discounted? Absolutely not, they are relevant and worthy additions to discussions about college wrestling.

 

First, it's disingenuous to call freestyle a "completely different" style to folkstyle. Greco, maybe. Freestyle, no. It's not like folkstyle versus MMA or sumo wrestling. The two styles are more similar than they are dissimilar.

 

Importantly, there is an enormous amount of skill transfer from one style to another. This is even more so in the past 20-25 years because folksyle has evolved to emphasize TD wrestling more than in the past. To throw a strawman out there, I posit that, for the average D1 All-American folkstyler (i.e. very strong TD wrestler with excellent mat sense), his folkstyle technique alone makes him somewhere betweeen 60-70% ready for freestyle. That's a hell of a lot. That doesn't mean that being an NCAA champ guarantees high placement at senior nationals in the spring or summer; my point is that a high percentage of the skills required to succeed internationally are also required to succeed in folkstyle.

 

How many NCAA champs can you name who weren't at least competitive in the senior freestyle circuit? How many world team members throughout history were not AAs in college? The list is very, very short. Interestingly, the reverse works too. How many national placewinners from other countries with serious freestyle programs ("AA" level for the country in question) who wrestled in college in the US were not at least competitive in folkstyle? This year we had Ugi and Z make high AA and if you look at past precedents, you will find plenty of other examples of freestylers coming to the US and being very competitive, most of them right away. There is a high correlation between folkstyle and freestyle success.

 

Why do you think college coaches care (and often a lot) about freestyle results when recruiting? Travis Lee was mentioned recently on this board, and he's a perfect example of this. He was a state champ out of Hawaii in folkstyle and therefore got almost no credit. A handful of coaches cared about him (I personally know of only two: Rob Koll and Bobby Douglas). After his senior season, Lee won both freestyle and greco at Junior Nationals, and all of a sudden, he was the talk of the college coach town untilmhe committed to Koll. Why? Because freestyle results are significantly indicative of folkstyle skill and potential.

 

Superold made a very important point that bears repeating. There are few who'll argue that wrestling at the elite senior world level is a significant step above wrestling in college. Guys like Randy Lewis who have succeeded at both folkstyle and freestyle constantly mention international results when assessing the skills of their contemporaries. Even nowadays, guys like Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, and Tony Ramos talk about how their summer freestyle experience wrestling "the best in the world" helped them become more ready than ever for their college seasons.

 

Of course, the rules are different. Not every skill transfers. Specialization is still required at the highest levels. But folkstyle and freestyle are simply not different enough to discount freestyle success at the highest level when talking about college wrestlers, especialy those who have smilar folkstyle achievements.

 

No, Kyle Dake beating David Taylor to death in freestyle does not mean that he would replicate that result in folkstyle. But few who watched that match objectively walked away seriously questioning which of the two was the better wrestler when their folkstyle pedigree was considered alongside the freestyle mauling that took place. Had Dake been a low AA, I could understand some skepticism. But to a lot of people, like me, the freestyle result answered some (not all) questions as to how an NCAA champ stacked up against another NCAA champ.

 

Guys like John Smith will never be ahead of Dake and Cael and Pat Smith in all-time folkstyle dream team rankings no matter how many world freestyle championships they won. In a folkstyle discussion, folkstyle results are the most important. But when we compare john Smith to Steve Mocco, who was also more successful than Smith in folkstyle by AA placings but not clearly ahead, how can a knowledgeable wrestling fan not talk about John's summer achievements and put Smith ahead of Mocco?

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I already granted that speaking in a general sense those who succeed at folkstyle succeed at freestyle and vice versa. That is completely besides the original point I made. When discussing folkstyle careers/accomplishments, and who is a better folkstyle wrestler - freestyle results simply do not belong in the equation. It is really that simple.

 

Total digression, but...

 

it's disingenuous to call freestyle a "completely different" style to folkstyle. ... The two styles are more similar than they are dissimilar.

 

But when we compare john Smith to Steve Mocco, who was also more successful than Smith in folkstyle by AA placings but not clearly ahead, how can a knowledgeable wrestling fan not talk about John's summer achievements and put Smith ahead of Mocco?

 

It's disingenuous to call Folkstyle and Freestyle "completely different styles"? Wow. I guess I'll chalk that up to sloppy wording on your part - because they are obviously completely different styles or they would just be the same. More to the point - more similar than dissimilar? How is that exactly? With the rule and scoring differences from folk to free, how can you actually say that? You can score in freestyle much easier than in folk, and in many different ways that you can not in folk. It is completely different - so much so that there are a completely different set of rules and the structure of the match is, again, completely different. I don't know how you can say they are anything but completely different.

 

A knowledgeable fan can do that simply by recognizing that freestyle is completely irrelevant to folkstyle - in regards to comparing one guy to another in folkstyle. It isn't only about folkstyle accomplishments (higher placer, etc) when deciding who is better - maybe Smith had tougher competition, maybe Mocco being a HWT sways the discussion in Smith's favor, etc. Maybe Mocco had a better folkstyle career than Smith, and Smith had a much better freestyle career - that is also possible. You don't have to win both categories. Again, see my Sanderson vs. Smith example. Cael was the much better folkstyle wrestler of the two - Smith the much better freestyle wrestler of the two. Simple - the two are totally different and should be treated as such

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So, it makes no sense to take results against "weaker" NCAA competition to evaluate freestyle skill level - but it makes perfect sense to take results in a completely different style (different rules, scoring, etc) and evaluate folkstyle skill level?

 

My friend, that is what I call "having your cake, and eating it too!"

 

No, it's not "having your cake, and eating it too". If the competition were on the same level, that would be different. But since international freestyle is wrestled on a much higher level than ncaa wrestling, (with far better athletes) it doesn't make sense to consider the results against inferior competition in the opposite direction. For example, when an elite, world champion wrestler is able to dominate opponents at the world level with his wrestling ability, he is extremely likely to do it on the lower ncaa level. Look at the few who have actually became truly elite on the world level in college, and see how they did in college once they got to that level (Uetake, Hodge, Smith). Now consider all the elite, dominating college wrestlers on the ncaa level and see how many of them have had great struggles against the better competition. The list is extremely long, look no further than David Taylor. And that's no insult, he's far from the first, and will be far from the last. He's unstoppable by 99% of college wrestlers, but as of right now, he's just an average wresler among the world's elite. Yes, there is differences in style that must be considered, but let's just take an example. In college, Taylor completely dominates on his feet, outside of Dake, there's no one else even close at his weight class. Taylor couldn't come close to dominating like that against the top guys, not by a long shot. Look at the last olympic trials and what Dake, and Howe did to him. Especially Howe, who used moves that would work in the exact same way in folkstyle. Howe's special, but there are a ton of Howe's on the world stage who could have did the same thing to Taylor at that stage last year, and probably this year too.

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So, it makes no sense to take results against "weaker" NCAA competition to evaluate freestyle skill level - but it makes perfect sense to take results in a completely different style (different rules, scoring, etc) and evaluate folkstyle skill level?

 

My friend, that is what I call "having your cake, and eating it too!"

 

No, it's not "having your cake, and eating it too". If the competition were on the same level, that would be different. But since international freestyle is wrestled on a much higher level than ncaa wrestling, (with far better athletes) it doesn't make sense to consider the results against inferior competition in the opposite direction. For example, when an elite, world champion wrestler is able to dominate opponents at the world level with his wrestling ability, he is extremely likely to do it on the lower ncaa level. Look at the few who have actually became truly elite on the world level in college, and see how they did in college once they got to that level (Uetake, Hodge, Smith). Now consider all the elite, dominating college wrestlers on the ncaa level and see how many of them have had great struggles against the better competition. The list is extremely long, look no further than David Taylor. And that's no insult, he's far from the first, and will be far from the last. He's unstoppable by 99% of college wrestlers, but as of right now, he's just an average wresler among the world's elite. Yes, there is differences in style that must be considered, but let's just take an example. In college, Taylor completely dominates on his feet, outside of Dake, there's no one else even close at his weight class. Taylor couldn't come close to dominating like that against the top guys, not by a long shot. Look at the last olympic trials and what Dake, and Howe did to him. Especially Howe, who used moves that would work in the exact same way in folkstyle. Howe's special, but there are a ton of Howe's on the world stage who could have did the same thing to Taylor at that stage last year, and probably this year too.

 

Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis.

 

You were the one who introduced the skill level into the equation - I am talking, and have been since the beginning, purely about the style differences from folk to free and how they are totally different.

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Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis.

 

The level of competition is inarguably far superior, so that's the biggest factor. Of course the styles are different, so there isn't 100% overlap, but there is still a ton like wrestlingnerd and I have mentioned. My example about Taylor's prowess in neutral against college wrestlers vs international wrestlers is a good example of the difference in competiton and talent between the levels.

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Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis.

 

The level of competition is inarguably far superior, so that's the biggest factor. Of course the styles are different, so there isn't 100% overlap, but there is still a ton like wrestlingnerd and I have mentioned.

 

Im glad you can decide so easily that higher level of competition outweighs completely different rules and scoring as a determining factor in transitional success from folk to free.

 

Still a ton, like you have been mentioning huh? I still say it is quite evident that freestyle is completely different than folkstyle - literally almost to the point of not being the same sport (it has the same goals / idea behind it, but the structure/scoring/rules are vastly different). This is a major, major point that you seem to be disregarding with your arguments.

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Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis.

 

The level of competition is inarguably far superior, so that's the biggest factor. Of course the styles are different, so there isn't 100% overlap, but there is still a ton like wrestlingnerd and I have mentioned.

 

Im glad you can decide so easily that higher level of competition outweighs completely different rules and scoring as a determining transitional success from folk to free.

 

Still a ton, like you have been mentioning huh? I still say it is quite evident that freestyle is completely different than folkstyle - literally almost to the point of not being the same sport (it has the same goals / idea behind it, but the structure/scoring/rules are vastly different). This is a major, major point that you seem to be disregarding with your arguments.

 

 

You'd find no top tier D1 coach, or many other coaches from any level who would say that the sports are "completely different...almost to the point of not being the same sport". Not seriously at least, maybe when they are complaining about the current rules, but not with a clear head. I'm not disregarding the point at all, it's just not nearly as big of a factor as you think it is.

 

 

Oh, Pa-Fan. Check out my other thread "Is Dake better than Taylor". You were one of the guys who inspired the thread. I'd like to see your thoughts, I think you're a good poster.

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Is it because it is higher level of competition - or is it because it is a completely different style of wrestling complete with different scoring, rules, etc - as I have been saying continuously? You acknowledge the different styles by mentioning it - but completely ignore it in your analysis.

 

The level of competition is inarguably far superior, so that's the biggest factor. Of course the styles are different, so there isn't 100% overlap, but there is still a ton like wrestlingnerd and I have mentioned.

 

Im glad you can decide so easily that higher level of competition outweighs completely different rules and scoring as a determining transitional success from folk to free.

 

Still a ton, like you have been mentioning huh? I still say it is quite evident that freestyle is completely different than folkstyle - literally almost to the point of not being the same sport (it has the same goals / idea behind it, but the structure/scoring/rules are vastly different). This is a major, major point that you seem to be disregarding with your arguments.

 

 

You'd find no top tier D1 coach, or many other coaches from any level who would say that the sports are "completely different...almost to the point of not being the same sport". Not seriously at least, maybe when they are complaining about the current rules, but not with a clear head. I'm not disregarding the point at all, it's just not nearly as big of a factor as you think it is.

 

And it is a much, much, much bigger factor than you think it is. Make a side by side comparison of Folkstyle vs. Freestyle scoring and rules - and see how incredibly different it is. Even the structure is nowhere near the same. Freestyle is won in periods! You can lose 6-0 and that deficit is erased after the period - no such thing in folk. The two are vastly - vastlyyyy - different.

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They're so incredibly, completely, vaaastllyyy, much much much, [insert more superlatives here] different that you still can't answer why there is such a high correlation between success in both styles, and the most knowledgeable people -- many elite folkstyle wrestlers and coaches -- place any predictive value on freestyle when assessing folkstyle potential.

 

Folkstyle and thumb wrestling are completely, vastlyyyy, etc. different. Folk and free share a lot of similarities.

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They're so incredibly, completely, vaaastllyyy, much much much, [insert more superlatives here] different that you still can't answer why there is such a high correlation between success in both styles, and the most knowledgeable people -- many elite folkstyle wrestlers and coaches -- place any predictive value on freestyle when assessing folkstyle potential.

 

Folkstyle and thumb wrestling are completely, vastlyyyy, etc. different. Folk and free share a lot of similarities.

 

I don't need to answer why there is such a high correlation - I don't dispute it. The only thing I ever said is it is a misleading stat when people attempt to use it to compare across styles.

 

The thing you are missing here is this: I acknowledge your point - that there is a great correlation of success across the two styles, I simply think it is misleading in the way you are attempting to use it. Think "Correlation does not imply causation." On the flip side, you are just tossing my point aside - that the two styles are very different. This is evident - all you have to do is compare them.

 

People who are good at football will most likely be good at Rugby - the two sports require similar skills, but they have very different rules. Football and Rugby share many similarities as well, yet even knowing this it is obvious that they are very different given the scoring/rules/etc.

 

Folkstyle vs. Freestyle wrestling is the same idea - the same skill set is required for each so if you are good at one you will most likely be good at the other, but the rules and scoring are very different between them - and you cannot just point to their similarities and say "See, they are the same they have so much in common!" - and completely ignore how different they actually are.

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I said the two sports are more similar than dissimilar (never did I say that the rules themselves were more similar than dissimilar), that there is a huge amount of skill transfer between them, that there is a high level of correlation between success in both styles, that a D1 level college wrestler has what I roughly estimated as 60-70% of the basic skills required to succeed in freestyle, that despite the difference in rules, many if not most of the elite wrestlers our country produces as well as their coaches assign significant importance to freestyle as a proxy for folkstyle ability and potential.

 

Once again, as with several debates in which you've engaged in the past, you get caught up in the semantics of an argument and not the salient point.

 

So let's get to your new point of contention. You don't like that I said they're more similar than dissimilar because the rules are different. Sure, the rules are very different. But the process of taking down an opponent in either style is much more similar than it is dissimilar, is it not? And isn't TD wrestling something like 80% or more of a freestyle match in terms of time spent? Which of the three positions would you say 99.99% of D1 AAs and coaches consider most important, neutral, top, or bottom?

 

My point, again: Making reference to success against the best wrestling talent the entire world has to offer when discussing the achievements of a folkstyle wrestler is absolutely relevant to a discussion of said wrestler's ability. Never did I, or anyone for that matter, suggest that freestyle results need to be considered either in isolation or with more importance than folkstyle results when discussing folkstyle college careers. But what I, and others, did suggest is that when comparing people with similar folkstyle backgrounds (such as 2X NCAA champs, or perhaps even 1X NCAA champs to 2x NCAA champs), the inclusion of freestyle success at the senior world level in the discussion is appropriate, especially when considered as a supplementary (non-core) argument.

 

It is ridiculous to point to anyone who mentions freestyle when discussing a folkstyle wrestler and say, no, that's freestyle, it's completely different and therefore completely irrelevant, stop... when the majority of the athletes in question themselves and their coaches would not agree with that.

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