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Iowa won the title but Penn St won the day

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Yes. I do. In your illogical scenario, I believe he would trade individual success for his teams success, as many athletes do in more traditional team sports.

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In the words of Louden Swain, "wrestling is not a team sport."

 

Its an individual sport with a team component.

Otherwise duals would end as soon as a dual was clinched.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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7 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

In the words of Louden Swain, "wrestling is not a team sport."

I was forced to be an individual wrestler because my team was not very good. It was not nearly as fun as the club team I wrestled for dominating tournaments. I would take being pretty damn successful, and team winning over winning individually, but team losing. This is purely ncaas and below.  Olympic gold is literally a different monster, but personally, I'd  also  take a bronze in the Olympics if it meant the US does better then Russia. 

Edited by Molsen

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4 minutes ago, Molsen said:

I was forced to be an individual wrestler because my team was not very good. It was not nearly as fun as the club team I wrestled for dominating tournaments. I would take being pretty damn successful, and team winning over winning individually, but team losing. This is purely ncaas and below.  Olympic gold is literally a different monster, but personally, I'd  also  take a bronze in the Olympics if it meant the US does better then Russia. 

Thank you for answering the question. I would rather 3 gold and 3 dnps over 6 bronze.

And i would rather my son win a state title than the team win the team championships.

 

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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In the words of Louden Swain, "wrestling is not a team sport."
 
Its an individual sport with a team component.
Otherwise duals would end as soon as a dual was clinched.
Again, you don't get to decide that.

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6 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Thank you for answering the question. I would rather 3 gold and 3 dnps over 6 bronze.

And i would rather my son win a state title than the team win the team championships.

 

I think to each their own. I was huge on the team aspect, but I will admit if I do have a son that wrestles, I'd probably feel the same about him over the team. But would hope he would value the team more like I did.

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36 minutes ago, Molsen said:

I was forced to be an individual wrestler because my team was not very good. It was not nearly as fun as the club team I wrestled for dominating tournaments. I would take being pretty damn successful, and team winning over winning individually, but team losing. This is purely ncaas and below.  Olympic gold is literally a different monster, but personally, I'd  also  take a bronze in the Olympics if it meant the US does better then Russia. 

The best match of my HS career was in a JV Duals Tournament. The 3 guys on my team before me all pinned their guys, so the 'momentum' had my thinking I was going to step up and pin my guy, too. (I never believed in momentum before - it seems like a silly thing. But, after that day, I believe in it.) The other guys had me fired up, and I stepped out there thinking I was going to destroy this kid. I was wrestling tough, but this guy seemed to get in the way of all my big moves. Had to be a fluke, so I kept going at him hard. Takedowns and reversals were flying. I knew he'd fade. Guys were cheering like crazy the whole time. 3rd period was winding down, and I kept going hard knowing he'd fade. He didn't. I was about out of gas. I barely got in a last second reversal that tied it at 14-14. I walked off the mat feeling like I had let the team down. (In more detail, I mostly felt woozy and my hands were numb and I thought I might fall over and die. But other than that, at least I didn't lose.) Then the guys decided to tell me who this kid was.

Turns out this kid was their best guy on their starting varsity team, and one of the best in the state at any weight. He had been out for a week and, per team rules, had to wrestle JV for a week before the coach let him back on varsity. He won the state championship that year, and the next year went on to wrestle D1 - where he was an NCAA Champion and 3x AA.

No way. Zero way. Not possible that I, as a JV kid, would have wrestled him to a 14-14 tie without the dual team format.

I have no doubt that duals are folkstyle wrestling at it's finest. 

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39 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

The best match of my HS career was in a JV Duals Tournament. The 3 guys on my team before me all pinned their guys, so the 'momentum' had my thinking I was going to step up and pin my guy, too. (I never believed in momentum before - it seems like a silly thing. But, after that day, I believe in it.) The other guys had me fired up, and I stepped out there thinking I was going to destroy this kid. I was wrestling tough, but this guy seemed to get in the way of all my big moves. Had to be a fluke, so I kept going at him hard. Takedowns and reversals were flying. I knew he'd fade. Guys were cheering like crazy the whole time. 3rd period was winding down, and I kept going hard knowing he'd fade. He didn't. I was about out of gas. I barely got in a last second reversal that tied it at 14-14. I walked off the mat feeling like I had let the team down. (In more detail, I mostly felt woozy and my hands were numb and I thought I might fall over and die. But other than that, at least I didn't lose.) Then the guys decided to tell me who this kid was.

Turns out this kid was their best guy on their starting varsity team, and one of the best in the state at any weight. He had been out for a week and, per team rules, had to wrestle JV for a week before the coach let him back on varsity. He won the state championship that year, and the next year went on to wrestle D1 - where he was an NCAA Champion and 3x AA.

No way. Zero way. Not possible that I, as a JV kid, would have wrestled him to a 14-14 tie without the dual team format.

I have no doubt that duals are folkstyle wrestling at it's finest. 

I had to get that feeling from freestyle and Greco, mostly but even on my team that wasn't great, the atmosphere of duals was amazing. Building off of eachother, I remember one of my teammates got slammed pretty hard, and ended up losing. Next match one of my teammates did the same thing to their guy, then I stuck their captain, and it spiraled out of controll. My bad team was getting pins left and right.

 

I also believe the year Bo beat Dean, momentum played in some of those finals matches for psu. I'd argue that momentum was going this year.  Because it's a team thing.

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52 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

The best match of my HS career was in a JV Duals Tournament. The 3 guys on my team before me all pinned their guys, so the 'momentum' had my thinking I was going to step up and pin my guy, too. (I never believed in momentum before - it seems like a silly thing. But, after that day, I believe in it.) The other guys had me fired up, and I stepped out there thinking I was going to destroy this kid. I was wrestling tough, but this guy seemed to get in the way of all my big moves. Had to be a fluke, so I kept going at him hard. Takedowns and reversals were flying. I knew he'd fade. Guys were cheering like crazy the whole time. 3rd period was winding down, and I kept going hard knowing he'd fade. He didn't. I was about out of gas. I barely got in a last second reversal that tied it at 14-14. I walked off the mat feeling like I had let the team down. (In more detail, I mostly felt woozy and my hands were numb and I thought I might fall over and die. But other than that, at least I didn't lose.) Then the guys decided to tell me who this kid was.

Turns out this kid was their best guy on their starting varsity team, and one of the best in the state at any weight. He had been out for a week and, per team rules, had to wrestle JV for a week before the coach let him back on varsity. He won the state championship that year, and the next year went on to wrestle D1 - where he was an NCAA Champion and 3x AA.

No way. Zero way. Not possible that I, as a JV kid, would have wrestled him to a 14-14 tie without the dual team format.

I have no doubt that duals are folkstyle wrestling at it's finest. 

By any chance, did the guy you were wrestling have a wicked tilt and was he seen in the stands eating nachos after your match?

Edited by Billyhoyle

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5 hours ago, Mr. Poopy butthole said:

As an Iowa fan, it feels like the team I root most for lost tonight

Expectation is the root of all discontent. 

Many PSU fans approached the tournament not expecting to win the team title and entered the final day sessions expecting one or two champions.  They got more.

Many Iowa fans expected a runaway team championship and a couple (maybe 3) of champions and got less.

The goods news for any disappointed Iowa fans - Expectations fade.  Achievements never do.

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8 hours ago, Drake_Mallard said:

Kem has a chance next year. If he didnt I would be upset. Starochi made some adjustments and it was impressive. I think Kem will find a way to get to the legs next year. I also think Iowa gets more AAs next year.

The PSU coaching staff are superior when it comes to helping their wrestlers make adjustments on the big stage. I can’t imagine Kemerer will beat Starocci after he gets another year of experience in that room.

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7 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

True, but if Iowa didnt win it would be a total collapse.

I already proved this is not true. Iowa didn’t have a “total collapse,” yet if nothing changed about their performance, Penn State could have won with a title from Beard at a wide open weight and 4 total more points from Berge, Kerk and Howard.

Edited by 1032004

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5 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Thank you for answering the question. I would rather 3 gold and 3 dnps over 6 bronze.

And i would rather my son win a state title than the team win the team championships.

 

This is dumb.  The Olympics especially in wrestling are more about individuals than teams, and parents aren’t a fair comparison to random fans.

College wrestling is one of only a few sports that are truly both individual AND team sports.  It’s similar to swimming, gymnastics, cross country, etc.   I think most fans of those college sports would rather have a team title than the individual champion.  Heck even in the Olympics gymnastics is one sport where even there many would rather have the team title than the individual all-around champion.

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9 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Mr. Poopy Butthole is welcome to his own experience. I'm not telling him how to feel. My favorite team hadn't won a title in 11 years, I feel fine.43771c465c5c805320fe1cbfef499428.jpg

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Looks like that's more of a "drowning in my sorrows" brew - not a glass of celebratory suds.

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3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I already proved this is not true. Iowa didn’t have a “total collapse,” yet if nothing changed about their performance, Penn State could have won with a title from Beard at a wide open weight and 4 total more points from Berge, Kerk and Howard.

You didnt prove anything. All im pointing out is iowa's team title this year with its lack of individual champs makes give them a paper title.

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Well Penn St. may have won the day, but other programs did very well for themselves as well. Look at Okla St. they had a freshmen Champ at 197, a finalist at 133, and four other AA’s. Arizona St., had a great performance as well, they had a finalist and four other AA’s. Others in my opinion were Stanford, Pitt, NC State, Utah Valley, and Rider, Northern Illinois, Cal Poly.    Obviously there are others, but some of these programs can get a tremendous boost when they have a Champ, finalist, or an AA. 
 

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Not sure what is so controversial about what BigTenFanboy is saying...there is no way that anyone can say wrestling ISN"T an individual sport with a team aspect to it.  First and foremost it always has been and always will be an individual sport.  Yes there is the team aspect of it, of which is great....I like that there is a team aspect, but seriously wrestling is an individual sport...period.  

Iowa had an amazing team this year and congratulations to them, well deserved.  PSU had an amazing tournament and an even better showing in the finals...they had a better showing  on the night than any other team.  Both Iowa and PSU should be very happy going home.

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11 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Those things are important but the most important is his youth and trajectory.

  • 9th grade: 8th at states
  • 10th grade: 2nd at states
  • 11th grade: 1st at states
  • 12th grade: 1st at states
  • RS at PSU: 18-0, Southern Scuffle Champ
  • RFr at PSU: NCAA champ

He moved up in weight classes every year in HS starting from 138. I wonder if he'll stay at 174 next year or be like Nickal, who had a very similar growth spurt throughout HS and also started at 174 at PSU but kept getting bigger.

 

Where is he going to go?  Brooks is a relatively small 184 who probably will spend the remainder of his college career at 184.  They have freshman AAs at 197 and hvywt.  Starocci can't move up without throwing the wrench into PSU's lineup.  Luckily Carter does not appear to be that big for the weight and may stay there for the next few years. The 1st world problem PSU will have to deal with eventually is how to work around Facundo - He appears to be a 174/184 type guy there is a logjam there.  I am sure the other D1 coaches feel real bad for Cael having to figure out that.

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1 hour ago, BigTenFanboy said:

You didnt prove anything. All im pointing out is iowa's team title this year with its lack of individual champs makes give them a paper title.

So would you say Iowa’s performance was a “collapse”?

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Q: When was the last time a team lost the title and still walked away feeling like they smashed the other guy's face into the mat?

Iowa is getting props for their PA-heavy team's performance. We all knew going in that the Hawks would win it all. Everyone was prepared for it and no one was surprised or disappointed that PSU couldn't catch them.  

But the Nits came a lot closer to catching them than expected. And as usual, PSU was the dominant player on Saturday night. My theory: blue chip wrestlers wondering where to go? Their questions were answered by a) results, b) attitude of the wrestlers.  i know one shouldn't use the F-word, but you can't avoid it. Penn State wrestlers have fun.

Does the term "pyrrhic victory" apply here?  If not, why are the Iowa fans so defensive, the PSU fans so mellow? 

Is this a great sport or what?

 

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34 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So would you say Iowa’s performance was a “collapse”?

Marinelli scored how many points? 4?

No AA for Murin?

Young, Eirman and Kemerer losing to guys they beat previously.

No bonus from Lee in the finals.

With talks of Iowa having 10 AAs this year and breaking the scoring record.

You make the call.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

Marinelli scored how many points? 4?

No AA for Murin?

Eirman and Kemerer losing to guys they beat.

No bonus from Lee in the finals.

With talks of Iowa having 10 AAs this year and breaking the scoring record.

You make the call.

I already said no - 1 champ, 3 finalists, 6 guys in the top 4 plus a 7th is a pretty darn good tournament.

Murin was a 12 seed.   The only ones that really underperformed were Marinelli, who lost to the eventual champion then I believe was injured, and Brands, who was a 12 seed also.  I don’t think making the finals is a collapse, everyone knew Lee/Eierman was a tossup not to mention Eierman outscored 2 of the champions and while I’m sure Kemerer was disappointed to lose to a guy he beat pretty handily last time, even he only scored one less point than Starocci.

They didn’t collapse.  If they really collapsed PSU would have won without doing anything differently than they did.  But PSU could have won without Iowa doing anything differently, despite the fact that they didn’t collapse.

 

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