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Stalling on top ....It's a PROBLEM

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NCAA Wrestling needs to address the stalling that is going on....particularly in the top position.  Is the purpose of the top position just to hold the guy ....or to turn/score?  Guys are continually allowed to remain parallel, hook the ankle (RBY), and chop out arms just to keep the guy from standing.  This equals no scoring/less action.  The NCAA should look at athletes who had the most riding time in the tournament and how many turns they had.  Aside from Spencer Lee - I think we have a problem.  

Refs obviously need direction/guidance on how to officiate in this situation!  

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Ferrari too.  Bottom wrestler stands up, he drops to the leg and stands and walks him out of bounds.  Rinse and repeat.  No intent or attempt to turn or pin.

Warner is also a big parallel rider who does nothing.

Also a bunch of guys (Fix, Eireman) throw double boots and try to crank on a power half so it looks like they're attempting a turn but in reality they are just riding out the clock.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

Have a rule that says if the ride lasts 30 seconds without a turn wrestlers go back to their feet: Problem solved.

Maybe even make the rule 20 seconds in the third period.

Then everyone stall rides for 30 sides to not give up the escape.

The riding time point is a failure, get rid of it.  It has caused more stalling than there was before it.  I'm fine if you get a RT point if you get back points but in its current form it has had the exact opposite effect they were looking for. 

 

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I kind of like the idea of looking to freestyle for the answers to stop stalling on top. I think once you get a takedown, the bottom man has time to attempt and escape and the top man has time to attempt a turn. If neither has occurred you reset to your feet. The thing I dislike about that is giving the refs more subjective control without black and white rules.... 

I also like the idea of takedowns being worth 3 points as long as escapes count for 1 point, but that’s another conversation for another day. 

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The biggest culprit is Cassioppi, he just lays on guys for 45 seconds and never gets hit. Not sure how that isn't stalling.

This definitely needs addressed, but as long as they allow it coaches and wrestlers will game the rules.

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NO OFFENSE HERE to anyone but I'm guessing none of the posters on this thread ever wrestled at the D1 level ?? MANY big name high school wrestlers college careers came to an end OR did not turn out the way they hoped because of the bottom position. Starting on bottom against a tough top wrestler is by far the hardest, most exhausting and physical position in D1 wrestling.  A high school wrestler is MUCH farther ahead going into D1 being able to get out from bottom on anybody rather than being able to take anybody down.  A good take down artist can take you down, kick you out and may even embarrass you and hurt your feelings a little BUT please Spencer Lee don't rip my arms off or please Zain Retherford don't break my spine in half !! Trust me , just because you don't see top guys turning the bottom wrestlers in D1 doesn't mean they are not trying. Furthermore, getting ridden out for 2 minutes by a tough top wrestler is much more physical and exhausting than getting taken down 2 or 3 times by a take down artist in 2 minutes. In fact , the bottom position in D1 is what makes the NCAA D1 Championships the hardest and most physical tourney in the world!!  Please all college experienced wrestlers let me know your opinion on this.

Edited by WJB

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Had a friend in Oregon text me late in Saturday's finals "This year's tournament enough to turn you into a full-fledged freestyle fan yet?"  I had to laugh.  

I'm all for a good counter shot...but I was struck with how apparent it has become that some of these elite wrestlers have little offense on their mind that isn't a counter.  And it tends to be paired with the ankle-hook/leg-pinch/hold-on/push-out endless ride to nowhere strategy.  Can't blame em...such strategy snagged multiple titles this year.

 

 

Edited by marmsd1

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3 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Take away escape points and riding time points and this mostly goes away

An earned escape deserves a point.  With the exception of wrestler choice to choose bottom at the start of a period, a freebie escape deserves no points.

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2 hours ago, BobDole said:

The biggest culprit is Cassioppi, he just lays on guys for 45 seconds and never gets hit. Not sure how that isn't stalling.

This definitely needs addressed, but as long as they allow it coaches and wrestlers will game the rules.

Cass is constantly working wrists and trying to dig the arm out and put it on the back. Is he gonna pin Schultz with it? No. Is he gonna pin quite a few of the less talented/athletic heavies with it? Yes. 

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Simple solution, don’t suck on bottom. As for RBY, DeSanto didn’t have any problems getting out from under him. Maybe Fix, just hadn’t worked on bottom in a few years. Warner’s ride on Woodley was much more egregious. They only need to enforce the rules already there, no reason to stand them up just because there is no turn.

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31 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Cass is constantly working wrists and trying to dig the arm out and put it on the back. Is he gonna pin Schultz with it? No. Is he gonna pin quite a few of the less talented/athletic heavies with it? Yes. 

A minute and a half of "playing with the wrists' and it's stalling on the bottom guy. That's stalling, never once left the hip and just played with the wrists. If the guy was wearing a Cal Poly singlet he would have been dinged for stalling on top. 

 

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3 hours ago, WJB said:

NO OFFENSE HERE to anyone but I'm guessing none of the posters on this thread ever wrestled at the D1 level ?? MANY big name high school wrestlers college careers came to an end OR did not turn out the way they hoped because of the bottom position. Starting on bottom against a tough top wrestler is by far the hardest, most exhausting and physical position in D1 wrestling.  A high school wrestler is MUCH farther ahead going into D1 being able to get out from bottom on anybody rather than being able to take anybody down.  A good take down artist can take you down, kick you out and may even embarrass you and hurt your feelings a little BUT please Spencer Lee don't rip my arms off or please Zain Retherford don't break my spine in half !! Trust me , just because you don't see top guys turning the bottom wrestlers in D1 doesn't mean they are not trying. Furthermore, getting ridden out for 2 minutes by a tough top wrestler is much more physical and exhausting than getting taken down 2 or 3 times by a take down artist in 2 minutes. In fact , the bottom position in D1 is what makes the NCAA D1 Championships the hardest and most physical tourney in the world!!  Please all college experienced wrestlers let me know your opinion on this.

I wrestled back in the 90's.  Stalling was called much different then, too frequently in my opinion, but now we've gone too far in the other direction.  The wrestler needs to attempt to turn the man or it's stalling.  

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I have to respectfully disagree with the comments that it is somehow the top man's stalling that's keeping the bottom man down or makes wrestling boring. At what point does it become the bottom man's responsibility to control that position. I was taught that being on bottom was my opportunity to score points and to limit the top man's accumulation of riding time control and either get me to neutral or reverse him. I also learned that, just like on the feet for TD's, there are things I can do on bottom to create setups and counters that allow me to escape or reverse in a short amount of time, regardless of the top guy's tactics. It doesn't matter if the top man catches/rides ankles, puts in legs, spirals, or whatever.  My first responsibility is prevention (i.e., movement or standup on the whistle and establishing hand control) and then it's countering.  When you are lousy on bottom, it makes the top man's job much easier. Just like when you are lousy on top. It makes the bottom man's job much easier to get out.  When you get broken down to your stomach, break down to your elbows, let your wrists/ankles get tied up, don't control his hands/wrists, don't create movement/get to your feet, get hip separation, or let a guy get legs in...that's your fault or your coach's fault...yours for either not having learned/drilled the techniques necessary for success or your coach's for not having taught you those techniques needed to succeed.  I just find it utterly amazing that instead of learning all the different methods that would help one on bottom, then the discussion turns to eliminating those positions or requirements. You want more action in the top/bottom positions? Award 1 pt or every 30 seconds of RT.  That would force both wrestlers to be incredibly more active. As some of you folks ponder criticizing/reacting to my opinion/perspective, be careful that you don't walk into a setup. 

Edited by patmilkovich
add context and wording

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There is no rule that is magically going to fix stalling. If we install "objective" rules like fleeing, people complain (Warner/Reenan). If we call stalling too aggressively, people complain (RBY/Fix). If we don't call it aggressively enough, people complain (RBY/ankle). That said, the situation can be improved. We need an added emphasis on calling stalling on the top man for not getting his hips out to the side. Call it like they do in HS. Hooking the ankle for any length of time without breaking the guy down is stalling. Maybe a 5 count would be useful like the Merkle. At least with the Merkle you can technically turn a guy with it. If you keep hooking the ankle, it is stalling. Double boots should be stalemated much quicker. I don't care how hard you are cranking the power half, if the guy is not close to being turned, stalemate it. We should also call stalling quicker on the bottom guy when the top guy is trying to let him up and they take 20 seconds to stand up. But, stalling calls are always going to be controversial in big matches, no matter how objective we try to make the rules.

The stand 'em back up idea like freestyle won't work as long as there is an escape point. Too many situations like Gantry pointed out will result in more controversial outcomes than we get from stalling calls, now.

Edited by Crotalus

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27 minutes ago, patmilkovich said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the comments that it is somehow the top man's stalling that's keeping the bottom man down or makes wrestling boring. At what point does it become the bottom man's responsibility to control that position. I was taught that being on bottom was my opportunity to score points and to limit the top man's accumulation of riding time control and either get me to neutral or reverse him. I also learned that, just like on the feet for TD's, there are things I can do on bottom to create setups and counters that allow me to escape or reverse in short amount of time, regardless of the top guy's tactics. It doesn't matter if the top man catches/rides ankles, puts in legs, spirals, or whatever.  My first responsibility is prevention (i.e., movement or standup on the whistle and establishing hand control) and then it's countering.  When you are lousy on bottom, it makes the top man's job much easier. Just like when you are lousy on top. It makes the bottom man's job much easier to get out.  When you get broken down to your stomach, break down to your elbows, let your wrists/ankles get tied up, don't control his hands/wrists, don't create movement/get to your feet, get hip separation, or let a guy get legs in...that's your fault or your coach's fault...yours for either not having learned/drilled the techniques necessary for success or your coach's for not having taught you those techniques needed to succeed.  I just find it utterly amazing that instead of learning all the different methods that would help one on bottom, then the discussion turns to eliminating those positions or requirements. You want more action in the top/bottom positions? Award 1 pt or every 30 seconds of RT.  That would force both wrestlers to be incredibly more active. As some of you folks ponder criticizing/reacting to my opinion/perspective, be careful that you don't walk into a setup. 

1 pt for every 30 seconds of riding time would change the sport completely. 

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4 hours ago, WJB said:

NO OFFENSE HERE to anyone but I'm guessing none of the posters on this thread ever wrestled at the D1 level ?? MANY big name high school wrestlers college careers came to an end OR did not turn out the way they hoped because of the bottom position. Starting on bottom against a tough top wrestler is by far the hardest, most exhausting and physical position in D1 wrestling.  A high school wrestler is MUCH farther ahead going into D1 being able to get out from bottom on anybody rather than being able to take anybody down.  A good take down artist can take you down, kick you out and may even embarrass you and hurt your feelings a little BUT please Spencer Lee don't rip my arms off or please Zain Retherford don't break my spine in half !! Trust me , just because you don't see top guys turning the bottom wrestlers in D1 doesn't mean they are not trying. Furthermore, getting ridden out for 2 minutes by a tough top wrestler is much more physical and exhausting than getting taken down 2 or 3 times by a take down artist in 2 minutes. In fact , the bottom position in D1 is what makes the NCAA D1 Championships the hardest and most physical tourney in the world!!  Please all college experienced wrestlers let me know your opinion on this.

4 years D1, ~65 wins. 2x All-Conference (injured sr. year.) and beat multiple AAs and a future finalist. Also had the pleasure of wrestling Jordan Leen up a weight...so i completely agree with you; there is almost nothing worse in the world than being on bottom in college, it is a truly a form of legal torture. That's exactly why I don't think you need a point to reward you for escaping; not being on bottom is the best reward and if the top guy wants to cut you he is giving up a serious positional advantage and shouldn't also have to give up a point.

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