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Stalling on top ....It's a PROBLEM

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15 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Why don't we just switch to UWW freestyle rules then?

You think the primary difference between freestyle and folkstyle is riding time and the escape point, not the locking hands and getting called up after 15 seconds?

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2 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:

You think the primary difference between freestyle and folkstyle is riding time and the escape point, not the locking hands and getting called up after 15 seconds?

That's not at all what I said.  My point is, if the NCAA is going to change the rules to what you were suggesting, we might as well switch to UWW freestyle rules.

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That's not at all what I said.  My point is, if the NCAA is going to change the rules to what you were suggesting, we might as well switch to UWW freestyle rules.

Maybe we should switch to freestyle, but changing those two points don’t make it close to freestyle at all. Nothing about the mechanics of the sport change at all, just the incentives (for boring rides)


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46 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:


Maybe we should switch to freestyle, but changing those two points don’t make it close to freestyle at all. Nothing about the mechanics of the sport change at all, just the incentives (for boring rides)


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You still aren't getting my point.  If the NCAA makes the changes to the rules that you are suggesting, THE NCAA MIGHT AS WELL SWITCH TO FREESTYLE.

I'm not saying your proposed rule changes would change college wrestling to freestyle.  Big difference.

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1 hour ago, patmilkovich said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the comments that it is somehow the top man's stalling that's keeping the bottom man down or makes wrestling boring. At what point does it become the bottom man's responsibility to control that position. I was taught that being on bottom was my opportunity to score points and to limit the top man's accumulation of riding time control and either get me to neutral or reverse him. I also learned that, just like on the feet for TD's, there are things I can do on bottom to create setups and counters that allow me to escape or reverse in a short amount of time, regardless of the top guy's tactics. It doesn't matter if the top man catches/rides ankles, puts in legs, spirals, or whatever.  My first responsibility is prevention (i.e., movement or standup on the whistle and establishing hand control) and then it's countering.  When you are lousy on bottom, it makes the top man's job much easier. Just like when you are lousy on top. It makes the bottom man's job much easier to get out.  When you get broken down to your stomach, break down to your elbows, let your wrists/ankles get tied up, don't control his hands/wrists, don't create movement/get to your feet, get hip separation, or let a guy get legs in...that's your fault or your coach's fault...yours for either not having learned/drilled the techniques necessary for success or your coach's for not having taught you those techniques needed to succeed.  I just find it utterly amazing that instead of learning all the different methods that would help one on bottom, then the discussion turns to eliminating those positions or requirements. You want more action in the top/bottom positions? Award 1 pt or every 30 seconds of RT.  That would force both wrestlers to be incredibly more active. As some of you folks ponder criticizing/reacting to my opinion/perspective, be careful that you don't walk into a setup. 

A lot of first moves from underneath seem to be "head down, butt- up". Not sure who's teaching that...but it's a great way to have to work up from your stomach with some hammer pounding on you  than get to peel hands and work free from standing.

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I like the kid,,,,but did anyone see Brooks LEAP out of bounds and no penalty when Hidlay had a foot?  

Asking for a friend.

 

Hit him for stalling. That’s fine.

 

But also hit Hidlay for two or three points during the 6+ minutes that preceded that. He wasn’t even trying to wrestle Brooks. Brooks wouldn’t let him have the undertook hook and he was done. He’s the Austin Desanto of 184.

 

Hidlay spent over a minute with at least one foot out of bounds during the first period alone of that match.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Ferrari too.  Bottom wrestler stands up, he drops to the leg and stands and walks him out of bounds.  Rinse and repeat.  No intent or attempt to turn or pin.

Warner is also a big parallel rider who does nothing.

Also a bunch of guys (Fix, Eireman) throw double boots and try to crank on a power half so it looks like they're attempting a turn but in reality they are just riding out the clock.

Ferrari's repeated dropping to the leg is a problem.  He's far from the first, but he's the most blatant I've seen about doing it repeatedly.  The 5 count lets him know when to stop so he can stall as much as he's allowed without worrying about it being called.  I'd say that if a guy got a 5 count at once or 10 count total, I'd call stalling.  

I have no problem with double legs since the bottom man has already lost if he let a guy get them in.  The bottom guy can't stop Ferrari from grabbing onto his leg during a standup.  

I'd probably just say after 30 seconds you go to neutral.  Let a guy mostly stall for 30 seconds after a TD to prevent the escape.  Then he wins the TD exchange 2-0 instead of 2-1, his riding has a real value, and the action is resumed without a whole period of clinging.  It would also mean you need to get on top at least twice to get a RT point.  

Edited by boconnell

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BMon,  In the body of my response, being on your stomach is one of the prime reasons one gets "ridden,"  or turned.  Why is he on his stomach to begin with? There are a multitude of methods to prevent that. Virtually everything in wrestling has a stimulus/response mechanism involved, called "setups." There are setups to takedowns, setups for riding, mat returns, breakdowns, pinning, escaping, and reversals, etc. Once a wrestler understands those processes, it rarely matters whether he is on top, bottom, or neutral.  The S/R methods all share commonalities between humans and they are predictable. Trying to adequately explain, verbally, the techniques of riding is extremely challenging. Top and bottom wrestling are the most difficult aspects of wrestling to learn and to teach. It's becoming a lost art and I understand why so many coaches and wrestlers like freestyle. It’s way easier. Consequently, it's why I love folkstyle, a wrestler can't be good in just one facet, he has to exhibit comprehension and competency in all three facets. 

On bottom, one of the important techniques is to keep your hands/wrists free.  Watch the NCAA's and notice how many wrestlers break down to an elbow while on bottom.  Big NO, NO. Wrists are begging to be controlled.  Stay off your elbows, keep your hands/wrists free,  stay off your belly, and you've just gotten light years better from bottom.

Riding or controlling the bottom man doesn't mean you grow roots on his ankle or stay stuck in one position. The true art of top wrestling is learning to change off, switch sides, and work the bottom man from head to ankles, while making him carry your weight, keeping him out of balance, and creating pressures and torques to make him use more of his strength and energy to neutralize or counteract all the forces. You and others may call it stalling, but it isn't.  It has a cumulative effect on the bottom man's stamina and psyche.  He's not scoring points, times ticking down, he's frustrated, fighting hard wasting energy and getting tired, top guy is gaining a point, and you're in his head because he knows he can't get out unless you let him out. If/when he does get out, his reactions may be slower because he wasted so much energy on bottom...and your'e still in his head with riding time. Many times in close matches with quality kids, the determining factor its RT. That's why RT is an asset to the sport.  No one should be given a free out or up, just because he can't do it himself. If he doesn't like being on bottom, learn to get out and you are now in your desired "neutral." If someone can dominate you on top, he deserves some reward.  Appropriately, that is riding time, control time, you suck on bottom time... call it whatever, but the top guy should not be penalized and taken out of a position of dominance/control and put on his feet just because the bottom man is inept. That's actually a form of "income inequality." There are plenty of lousy bottom wrestlers who can't get out but are difficult to turn because they've spent so much time there. So RT is his penalty and top's reward.  

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3 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

...the true art of top wrestling...

Your method of expression reminds me of the old man that goes out to sea every day and fishes for marlin in Earnest Hemingway's "The Old Man in the Sea."  The world passes him by and his fishing style sadly becomes a lost art.  The top man applying pressures and torques while riding parallel does not entertain the masses.  This forum is full of fans that care enough to bicker on the internet and spend money on the sport.  Their feedback is more valid than the traditionalist and less valid than the masses in regards to wrestling's future.  When wrestling was pulled from the Olympics, the IOC stated "It's not a case of what's wrong with wrestling; it is what's right with the 25 core sports."  The rules need to evolve to influence more entertainment.  This means less ankle sitting, less leg-driving quality kids out of bounds, and overall encouraging more action.  I wonder if rewarding the top man significantly more points for riding time would encourage more action.  What if the top-man was given 4-pts for a full period ride out?  What if top-man was given 2 pts for every 30 seconds of riding time AND both wrestlers were stood up after any 30 second where no backs are awarded?  The bottom man better get out quickly... will expend energy... the top man is rewarded for his work... there is more action for the fan.  One of the boring problems with freestyle is that the bottom man is not incented to escape... it is too risky to move off one's belly... so top and bottom lay there until the neutral restart...

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Your method of expression reminds me of the old man that goes out to sea every day and fishes for marlin in Earnest Hemingway's "The Old Man in the Sea."  The world passes him by and his fishing style sadly becomes a lost art.  The top man applying pressures and torques while riding parallel does not entertain the masses.  This forum is full of fans that care enough to bicker on the internet and spend money on the sport.  Their feedback is more valid than the traditionalist and less valid than the masses in regards to wrestling's future.  When wrestling was pulled from the Olympics, the IOC stated "It's not a case of what's wrong with wrestling; it is what's right with the 25 core sports."  The rules need to evolve to influence more entertainment.  This means less ankle sitting, less leg-driving quality kids out of bounds, and overall encouraging more action.  I wonder if rewarding the top man significantly more points for riding time would encourage more action.  What if the top-man was given 4-pts for a full period ride out?  What if top-man was given 2 pts for every 30 seconds of riding time AND both wrestlers were stood up after any 30 second where no backs are awarded?  The bottom man better get out quickly... will expend energy... the top man is rewarded for his work... there is more action for the fan.  One of the boring problems with freestyle is that the bottom man is not incented to escape... it is too risky to move off one's belly... so top and bottom lay there until the neutral restart...

It's hilarious when people think if we just had more action we'd have a bunch of casual fans.  Wrestling is a niche sport for better or worse.  If you change the rules to make it better then I'm all for it.  But you could make every match 100-99 with 10 backflips out of singles and 10 body slams and you wouldn't see a major shift in fans.  Craft a ruleset to create good wrestling.  Stop hypothetically chasing hypothetical fans.

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39 minutes ago, boconnell said:

It's hilarious when people think if we just had more action we'd have a bunch of casual fans.  Wrestling is a niche sport for better or worse.  If you change the rules to make it better then I'm all for it.  But you could make every match 100-99 with 10 backflips out of singles and 10 body slams and you wouldn't see a major shift in fans.  Craft a ruleset to create good wrestling.  Stop hypothetically chasing hypothetical fans.

Understand your point and disagree on growing fans.  It needs to be more entertaining.  We don't need to smash faces.  We don't need 100 pt scores.  We need to see more than what Oliver and Nolf demonstrated... better rule set for good wresting -- agreed.

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21 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

I have to respectfully disagree with the comments that it is somehow the top man's stalling that's keeping the bottom man down or makes wrestling boring. At what point does it become the bottom man's responsibility to control that position. I was taught that being on bottom was my opportunity to score points and to limit the top man's accumulation of riding time control and either get me to neutral or reverse him. I also learned that, just like on the feet for TD's, there are things I can do on bottom to create setups and counters that allow me to escape or reverse in a short amount of time, regardless of the top guy's tactics. It doesn't matter if the top man catches/rides ankles, puts in legs, spirals, or whatever.  My first responsibility is prevention (i.e., movement or standup on the whistle and establishing hand control) and then it's countering.  When you are lousy on bottom, it makes the top man's job much easier. Just like when you are lousy on top. It makes the bottom man's job much easier to get out.  When you get broken down to your stomach, break down to your elbows, let your wrists/ankles get tied up, don't control his hands/wrists, don't create movement/get to your feet, get hip separation, or let a guy get legs in...that's your fault or your coach's fault...yours for either not having learned/drilled the techniques necessary for success or your coach's for not having taught you those techniques needed to succeed.  I just find it utterly amazing that instead of learning all the different methods that would help one on bottom, then the discussion turns to eliminating those positions or requirements. You want more action in the top/bottom positions? Award 1 pt or every 30 seconds of RT.  That would force both wrestlers to be incredibly more active. As some of you folks ponder criticizing/reacting to my opinion/perspective, be careful that you don't walk into a setup. 

The definitive answer. Thank you, Pat. 

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On 3/22/2021 at 1:45 PM, BadgerMon said:

I like the kid,,,,but did anyone see Brooks LEAP out of bounds and no penalty when Hidlay had a foot?

 

Asking for a friend.

Hidlay stalled on the edge the whole match then decided to wrestle with 20 seconds left. 

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On 3/22/2021 at 7:58 AM, Dartsingle said:

NCAA Wrestling needs to address the stalling that is going on....particularly in the top position.  Is the purpose of the top position just to hold the guy ....or to turn/score?  Guys are continually allowed to remain parallel, hook the ankle (RBY), and chop out arms just to keep the guy from standing.  This equals no scoring/less action.  The NCAA should look at athletes who had the most riding time in the tournament and how many turns they had.  Aside from Spencer Lee - I think we have a problem.  

Refs obviously need direction/guidance on how to officiate in this situation!  

agreed. I mean, we made a rule that you can't grab the ankle and a five second count starts.

How is hooking with our own leg different? in fact, its worse, b/c you now gain an advantage by being able to use both arms elsewhere.

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On 3/22/2021 at 5:10 PM, patmilkovich said:

BMon,  In the body of my response, being on your stomach is one of the prime reasons one gets "ridden,"  or turned.  Why is he on his stomach to begin with? There are a multitude of methods to prevent that. Virtually everything in wrestling has a stimulus/response mechanism involved, called "setups." There are setups to takedowns, setups for riding, mat returns, breakdowns, pinning, escaping, and reversals, etc. Once a wrestler understands those processes, it rarely matters whether he is on top, bottom, or neutral.  The S/R methods all share commonalities between humans and they are predictable. Trying to adequately explain, verbally, the techniques of riding is extremely challenging. Top and bottom wrestling are the most difficult aspects of wrestling to learn and to teach. It's becoming a lost art and I understand why so many coaches and wrestlers like freestyle. It’s way easier. Consequently, it's why I love folkstyle, a wrestler can't be good in just one facet, he has to exhibit comprehension and competency in all three facets. 

On bottom, one of the important techniques is to keep your hands/wrists free.  Watch the NCAA's and notice how many wrestlers break down to an elbow while on bottom.  Big NO, NO. Wrists are begging to be controlled.  Stay off your elbows, keep your hands/wrists free,  stay off your belly, and you've just gotten light years better from bottom.

Riding or controlling the bottom man doesn't mean you grow roots on his ankle or stay stuck in one position. The true art of top wrestling is learning to change off, switch sides, and work the bottom man from head to ankles, while making him carry your weight, keeping him out of balance, and creating pressures and torques to make him use more of his strength and energy to neutralize or counteract all the forces. You and others may call it stalling, but it isn't.  It has a cumulative effect on the bottom man's stamina and psyche.  He's not scoring points, times ticking down, he's frustrated, fighting hard wasting energy and getting tired, top guy is gaining a point, and you're in his head because he knows he can't get out unless you let him out. If/when he does get out, his reactions may be slower because he wasted so much energy on bottom...and your'e still in his head with riding time. Many times in close matches with quality kids, the determining factor its RT. That's why RT is an asset to the sport.  No one should be given a free out or up, just because he can't do it himself. If he doesn't like being on bottom, learn to get out and you are now in your desired "neutral." If someone can dominate you on top, he deserves some reward.  Appropriately, that is riding time, control time, you suck on bottom time... call it whatever, but the top guy should not be penalized and taken out of a position of dominance/control and put on his feet just because the bottom man is inept. That's actually a form of "income inequality." There are plenty of lousy bottom wrestlers who can't get out but are difficult to turn because they've spent so much time there. So RT is his penalty and top's reward.  

Pat, I wouldn't call your definition of riding as stalling.  I agree with you.

I have no problem with riding time and don't have any agenda to get rid of it.  

By the way...good to see MSU get back into the thick of things!

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4 hours ago, buckshot1969 said:

Hidlay stalled on the edge the whole match then decided to wrestle with 20 seconds left. 

I'm not saying he wasn't guilty. What I'm saying is that Brooks dove for the OOB twice in the same sequence while Hidlay had his ankle and after Hidlay drug him back in. Blatant disregard of the avoiding wrestling definition by the ref.

What the refs didn't call prior ( during which I may have been distracted b.s.ing with my buddy) is another subject,,,,but yeah, if he worked the edge and avoided contact then he should have been dinged.  

p.s. I'm still ticked at Zach Rey for his stall-a-thon in the finals. More ticked at the refs...but the rules didn't address playing the edge at the time.

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Has been a few decades since I refereed wrestling. High School and lower levels.

We would warn the kids to work for a pin. If not, stall call was going to hit them.

In watching the NCAA tournament I saw a lot of riding with little attempt at working up to flattening the wrestler and turning for a pin. I did see a number of wrestlers working to turn for back points - only back points.

Don't have the answers, just observations for a part time fan who only sees the matches online now.

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Several posters are upset that the top man can drop down to a leg, or below the waist, for a 5 count then move up and drop back down for another 5 count. Having a keen knowledge of the rules is your advantage. If the rule is drop down, 5 count, move up, repeat, then why is he the bad guy for wrestling within the rules?  He didn't make them. To me, if I was the bottom man, I would use my knowledge of that rule and find a way to keep the top man down there for more than a 5 count. As far as legs go.  If you don't like being in legs, learn the symptoms of when you are vulnerable, learn the prevention techniques  and then learn the counters if caught in them or the techniques to stalemate.  Stalemating is also smart wrestling.  Makes no sense to me to give up points/concede when you can work for "he gets nothing, I get nothing." Although he is accumulating RT. Knowing the rules and wrestling within them is only smart wrestling.  American wrestling used to be referred to as "Catch as Catch can."  Slowly we are moving away from that.  Used to be that the top man could put a figure 4 around the waist or a full nelson from the side. It was determined that the F4 was mainly used, not so much to turn a guy, as to punish him...not sure why the full nelson from the side was eliminated....anyway, the main point is, all coaches should have a keen knowledge of the rules and then pass the knowledge to their wrestlers so they can manage their matches more effectively.  

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freestyle isn't the answer

we added rules for hanging on the ankle and i htink it looked like they were counting when guys did the chris perry head and body lock

why not add one for hooking the ankle with my leg

OR

if a guy continues to grab the ankle, the count starts where it left off, not back at one.

that might be hard...lets see... was it 2 or 3

how about if i have to count a second time its just stalling.

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5 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

Several posters are upset that the top man can drop down to a leg, or below the waist, for a 5 count then move up and drop back down for another 5 count. Having a keen knowledge of the rules is your advantage. If the rule is drop down, 5 count, move up, repeat, then why is he the bad guy for wrestling within the rules?  He didn't make them. To me, if I was the bottom man, I would use my knowledge of that rule and find a way to keep the top man down there for more than a 5 count. As far as legs go.  If you don't like being in legs, learn the symptoms of when you are vulnerable, learn the prevention techniques  and then learn the counters if caught in them or the techniques to stalemate.  Stalemating is also smart wrestling.  Makes no sense to me to give up points/concede when you can work for "he gets nothing, I get nothing." Although he is accumulating RT. Knowing the rules and wrestling within them is only smart wrestling.  American wrestling used to be referred to as "Catch as Catch can."  Slowly we are moving away from that.  Used to be that the top man could put a figure 4 around the waist or a full nelson from the side. It was determined that the F4 was mainly used, not so much to turn a guy, as to punish him...not sure why the full nelson from the side was eliminated....anyway, the main point is, all coaches should have a keen knowledge of the rules and then pass the knowledge to their wrestlers so they can manage their matches more effectively.  

I don't think anyone says he's a "bad guy" for doing it...just that it leads to an apparent strategy (one growing in popularity, perhaps) that is both somewhat frustrating and boring to watch. 

I have nothing against any fan who thinks dropping to the leg>move up>drop and/or pinch/hook legs and/or constantly just run the bottom guy out>rinse>repeat  is cutting edge supa-skill stuff...have at it.  I'd bet you'll re-watch this year's event with sheer delight.

But apparently it wasn't such a fan who started this particular discussion.

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