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Stalling on top ....It's a PROBLEM

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On 3/22/2021 at 10:23 PM, jross said:

I wonder if rewarding the top man significantly more points for riding time would encourage more action.  What if the top-man was given 4-pts for a full period ride out?  What if top-man was given 2 pts for every 30 seconds of riding time AND both wrestlers were stood up after any 30 second where no backs are awarded?  The bottom man better get out quickly... will expend energy... the top man is rewarded for his work... there is more action for the fan.  One of the boring problems with freestyle is that the bottom man is not incented to escape... it is too risky to move off one's belly... so top and bottom lay there until the neutral restart...

I don't see how this would help. Guys don't escape right now because they can't, not because they don't want to. Sure, maybe they'd spend more time in practice working on it in practice, but they'd spend way more time working on top and you'd get a lot more of the riding for riding's sake that this whole thread is detesting. We don't need to reward riding more. You get rewarded if you turn a guy. And if you don't at least you wear him out.

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On 3/22/2021 at 10:31 AM, WJB said:

NO OFFENSE HERE to anyone but I'm guessing none of the posters on this thread ever wrestled at the D1 level ?? MANY big name high school wrestlers college careers came to an end OR did not turn out the way they hoped because of the bottom position. Starting on bottom against a tough top wrestler is by far the hardest, most exhausting and physical position in D1 wrestling.  A high school wrestler is MUCH farther ahead going into D1 being able to get out from bottom on anybody rather than being able to take anybody down.  A good take down artist can take you down, kick you out and may even embarrass you and hurt your feelings a little BUT please Spencer Lee don't rip my arms off or please Zain Retherford don't break my spine in half !! Trust me , just because you don't see top guys turning the bottom wrestlers in D1 doesn't mean they are not trying. Furthermore, getting ridden out for 2 minutes by a tough top wrestler is much more physical and exhausting than getting taken down 2 or 3 times by a take down artist in 2 minutes. In fact , the bottom position in D1 is what makes the NCAA D1 Championships the hardest and most physical tourney in the world!!  Please all college experienced wrestlers let me know your opinion on this.

I don’t think this post is disagreeing with OP’s complaint.

In fact I think it helps it.   I didn’t wrestle D1 but I know getting out from bottom is hard in D1.  To that point,  IMO there are a lot of times when the top guy should get hit for stalling, but they hit the bottom man instead!  It’s already hard to get out, it’s even harder to get out if you have a guy laying on you, riding parallel double boots/spiral, sitting on an ankle, etc!  

I’d like to point out that you pointed out 2 guys (Lee and Retherford) that actually turn guys.  A lot of guys today are just content to ride without really trying to turn. 

Because of that I don’t think the suggestion to give 1 RT point for every 30 seconds would help, in fact I think it would make it worse because you can then earn as many points just riding as you would getting nearfall.  I think I’d lean towards only earning the RT point if you scored nearfall.  I probably wouldn’t hate putting them back up on their feet after 30 seconds or 1 minute or so though either (with no escape point given obviously).

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marmsd said: I don't think anyone says he's a "bad guy" for doing it...just that it leads to an apparent strategy (one growing in popularity, perhaps) that is both somewhat frustrating and boring to watch. I have nothing against any fan who thinks dropping to the leg>move up>drop and/or pinch/hook legs and/or constantly just run the bottom guy out>rinse>repeat  is cutting edge supa-skill stuff...have at it.  I'd bet you'll re-watch this year's event with sheer delight.But apparently it wasn't such a fan who started this particular discussion.

It seems that the guy who is adept at top is being vilified for his ability to control his opponent.  "bad guy" was a euphemism/expression not to be taken literally. My point was that it's not the top guys responsibility to make the bottom man look skilled. Being on bottom is an opportunity to score and limit RT, unless, of course, you aren't very good there...then you just help the top guy do his job...It's the bottom man's responsibility to limit the control the top man has over him. When you can exhibit dominance, mastery, and control, you deserve to be rewarded, whether from neutral, top, or bottom.  When you can't do that you do not deserve a reward.

RT is the reward for dominating on top, whether you turn him or not..it's still domination/control/mastery. Escaping or reversing is bottom's reward and it limits top's RT. That's domination/control/mastery from bottom.  

"I have nothing against any fan who thinks dropping to the leg>move up>drop and/or pinch/hook legs and/or constantly just run the bottom guy out>rinse>repeat  is cutting edge supa-skill stuff...have at it."  If it isn't "supa-skill stuff" then how come the bottom man can't get out? Actually, when you get on top of some wrestlers, you're damn lucky to get the RT let alone turn him.  So that's worth something and if it is bothersome, he should learn to get out efficiently and effectively.  Problem solved.

Regarding your remark about this year's event...first of all, I won't "re-watch" it....it was just ok.  don't care for the hand touch TD's, the 5 count below, the time wasting bricks,  mat returns (or lack thereof) or most of the top/bottom wrestling in general...with a few exceptions. Regarding your last sentence.  Not exactly sure what your point was there or to whom it was aimed but perhaps you can add clarity to that for me.  Respectfully,  Patrick Milkovich

 

 

Edited by patmilkovich
add italics and wording

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On 3/22/2021 at 1:05 PM, gowrestle said:

Agree. Biggest problem is officials not enforcing already established rules. 

Or enforcing them in a biased manner. I've noticed a general tendency for the refs to favor the more "prestigious" schools on stall calls. Iowa guys can stall ride and not get called. OSU guys can stall ride and not get called (Fix/Ferrari).  PSU I'm not aware of guys stalling from top so much as stalling on their feet (which OSU wrestlers are also notable for, and for which Iowa doesn't get called although locking up and pushing "Iowa-style" is just another version of stalling). The rules need to be enforced impartially. I don't want boys from my favorite teams winning if they have to have the referee win the match for them (Lewallen/Heil). 

Regarding Mr. Milkovich's idea of a point riding time for every 30 seconds, I LIKE it. Folk isn't FS, Folk is about control, not just being a takedown artist. I suggest the guys here continually moaning about the riding time point and wanting to change the rules to make Folk into FS just move on and stop watching folk. I promise if the USA colleges went to straight FS at least half the fans would stop watching. Old timers like myself (and Pat Milkovich) value the control aspect of wrestling as much as takedowns. I don't know if I could give up the sport if it went completely FS, but I sure wouldn't be watching it as much. I've learned to appreciate FS for what it is, but it is NOT collegiate wrestling. 

I thought of a compromise. After a takedown the guy on top gets 30 seconds to turn the opponent. If he doesn't, the guy on top gets a point RT, and they start from neutral again. How about that? 

Edited by TobusRex

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On 3/23/2021 at 2:23 AM, jross said:

Your method of expression reminds me of the old man that goes out to sea every day and fishes for marlin in Earnest Hemingway's "The Old Man in the Sea."  The world passes him by and his fishing style sadly becomes a lost art.  The top man applying pressures and torques while riding parallel does not entertain the masses.  This forum is full of fans that care enough to bicker on the internet and spend money on the sport.  Their feedback is more valid than the traditionalist and less valid than the masses in regards to wrestling's future.  When wrestling was pulled from the Olympics, the IOC stated "It's not a case of what's wrong with wrestling; it is what's right with the 25 core sports."  The rules need to evolve to influence more entertainment.  This means less ankle sitting, less leg-driving quality kids out of bounds, and overall encouraging more action.  I wonder if rewarding the top man significantly more points for riding time would encourage more action.  What if the top-man was given 4-pts for a full period ride out?  What if top-man was given 2 pts for every 30 seconds of riding time AND both wrestlers were stood up after any 30 second where no backs are awarded?  The bottom man better get out quickly... will expend energy... the top man is rewarded for his work... there is more action for the fan.  One of the boring problems with freestyle is that the bottom man is not incented to escape... it is too risky to move off one's belly... so top and bottom lay there until the neutral restart...

I think you were a bit disrespectful of Pat in that response. 

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12 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

Several posters are upset that the top man can drop down to a leg, or below the waist, for a 5 count then move up and drop back down for another 5 count. Having a keen knowledge of the rules is your advantage. If the rule is drop down, 5 count, move up, repeat, then why is he the bad guy for wrestling within the rules?  He didn't make them. To me, if I was the bottom man, I would use my knowledge of that rule and find a way to keep the top man down there for more than a 5 count. As far as legs go.  If you don't like being in legs, learn the symptoms of when you are vulnerable, learn the prevention techniques  and then learn the counters if caught in them or the techniques to stalemate.  Stalemating is also smart wrestling.  Makes no sense to me to give up points/concede when you can work for "he gets nothing, I get nothing." Although he is accumulating RT. Knowing the rules and wrestling within them is only smart wrestling.  American wrestling used to be referred to as "Catch as Catch can."  Slowly we are moving away from that.  Used to be that the top man could put a figure 4 around the waist or a full nelson from the side. It was determined that the F4 was mainly used, not so much to turn a guy, as to punish him...not sure why the full nelson from the side was eliminated....anyway, the main point is, all coaches should have a keen knowledge of the rules and then pass the knowledge to their wrestlers so they can manage their matches more effectively.  

Wow, never heard about he F4 used to punish guys. I used it on several guys in HS, pinned them all with it. Great for pulling the head up and flattening the shoulder blades.

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11 hours ago, TobusRex said:

I think you were a bit disrespectful of Pat in that response. 

I can see how it is interpreted that way.  In my own way, the reference to Earnest Hemingway was one of the best compliments that I could pay.  EH was a master of prose.  He had a unique sentence structure, was understated, and provided concise articulation with intensities and truths.  When I read "The Old Man and the Sea," I wished that it was me on the old wooden boat, struggling with a giant marlin far out in the Gulf Stream off the coast of Cuba.  Holding the rope with my bare hands... it sliding through the open cuts on my back and hands... without sleep for days... ready to die to capture my trophy.  It is a very manly book... 

Reading Pat's last paragraph, I was able to understand the top man art in a way I was never taught.  When I could not turn the bottom man for back points, I cut bottom man to attempt another take down... Pat's definitive response has passion and places your mind in the right place.

Quote

The true art of top wrestling is learning to change off, switch sides, and work the bottom man from head to ankles, while making him carry your weight, keeping him out of balance, and creating pressures and torques to make him use more of his strength and energy to neutralize or counteract all the forces... cumulative effect on the bottom man's stamina and psyche... he's frustrated... wasting energy... his reactions may be slower... you're still in his head... No one should be given a free out or up, just because he can't do it himself. If he doesn't like being on bottom, learn to get out...



I dropped Pat a note at the same time that I posted my response.

Quote

Just dropping a note that I can tell you care about the words you choose to express your thoughts.  I liked your clear articulation of the top man and bottom man artform.  Kudos.  Splendid.

 

Pat responded with more insight that I think is fair to share without permission.  It adds to this conversation.

Quote

Thanks for your kind words, Jason.  It's a shame that we have changed the rules to adjust to the lower expectations of wrestlers.   One of the best rules, imo, was when they called stalling if you took two steps backwards. This was back when Gable was coaching Iowa. It took care of a lot of the "stalling" issues.  Lots of action because no one wanted to be hit with a warning 15 seconds into an 8 minute match.  It is true that all those great coaches and technicians who understood the fine points of bottom and top wrestling are either dead, dying, or no longer sought after for their knowledge and virtually all the coaches now have been weened on international style wrestling.  Because you eliminate riding and bottom wrestling by putting them on their feet, the skills required for folk style are severely diminished....plus they eliminated RT in h.s....so we make a rule that top man can only be below the waist for a 5 count...that is actually very close to the greco rule.  The 5 sec rule was done so that the bottom man doesn't have to learn the techniques of freeing himself, because many don't know how... so we take from the one who has the skill on top and give it to the bottom man who does not by limiting top man's options to dominate.  Anyway, I could go on...thanks again  


I want the top man to try to score back points because that is all I know.  It is what I enjoy to watch.  RBY held claw for most of the 2nd period and had an ankle hooked for about 45 seconds.  At least four times he had an ankle hooked from 6 to 25 seconds.  That was not enjoyable for me to watch at all. 

This added to a poor first period for RBY, one where Fix controlled center mat, Fix pressed the action, Fix took the first shot, Fix took more shots, etc.  RBY's first period was not egregious but he was trying to survive the period without being scored on... rather than trying to score himself.  So RBY tries not to score in the first and tries not to score in the second... it was tactical and ugly for me to watch.  Several finalists were so afraid to lose that they forgot to wrestle... 

Edited by jross

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I want the top man try to score back points because that is all I know... and it is what I enjoy to watch.  RBY held claw for most of the 2nd period and had an ankle hooked for about 45 seconds.  At least four times he had an ankle hooked from 6 to 25 seconds.  That was not enjoyable for me to watch at all. 

This added to a poor first period for RBY, one where Fix controlled center mat, Fix pressed the action, Fix took the first shot, Fix took more shots, etc.  RBY's first period was not egregious but he was trying to survive the period without being scored on... rather than trying to score himself.  So RBY tries not to score in the first and tries not to score in the second... it was tactical and ugly for me to watch.  Several finalists were so afraid to lose that they forgot to wrestle... 
Agree. Cost Kemmerer his match.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

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20 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Wow, never heard about he F4 used to punish guys. I used it on several guys in HS, pinned them all with it. Great for pulling the head up and flattening the shoulder blades.

I think they eliminated the body figure 4 about 1971-2. Huge advantage for long legged guys.

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On 3/26/2021 at 6:01 PM, BadgerMon said:

I think they eliminated the body figure 4 about 1971-2. Huge advantage for long legged guys.

It was after that - it was still legal in 1979 when I graduated - it  could be brutal

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On 3/22/2021 at 9:23 PM, jross said:

Your method of expression reminds me of the old man that goes out to sea every day and fishes for marlin in Earnest Hemingway's "The Old Man in the Sea."  The world passes him by and his fishing style sadly becomes a lost art.  The top man applying pressures and torques while riding parallel does not entertain the masses.  This forum is full of fans that care enough to bicker on the internet and spend money on the sport.  Their feedback is more valid than the traditionalist and less valid than the masses in regards to wrestling's future.  When wrestling was pulled from the Olympics, the IOC stated "It's not a case of what's wrong with wrestling; it is what's right with the 25 core sports."  The rules need to evolve to influence more entertainment.  This means less ankle sitting, less leg-driving quality kids out of bounds, and overall encouraging more action.  I wonder if rewarding the top man significantly more points for riding time would encourage more action.  What if the top-man was given 4-pts for a full period ride out?  What if top-man was given 2 pts for every 30 seconds of riding time AND both wrestlers were stood up after any 30 second where no backs are awarded?  The bottom man better get out quickly... will expend energy... the top man is rewarded for his work... there is more action for the fan.  One of the boring problems with freestyle is that the bottom man is not incented to escape... it is too risky to move off one's belly... so top and bottom lay there until the neutral restart...

i understand trying to grow the sport... but we have been trying for decades... not much changes...

im not sure we are here to entertain the masses... they might someday figure out that wrestling is not entertainment, but a spectacle of the journey

from your post on gratitude 

you posted THE TRUE VALUE OF ATHLETICS IS FOUND IN WHO YOU BECOME THROUGH YOUR EXPERIENCES

i think this is lost on so many, who see that they wont become famous wrestling... and miss the journey of becoming themselves.

that is why i believe we can't grow the sport... not because its boring

boring is in the eye of the beholder. soccer is the most popular sport in the world, yet it is boring to me.

hockey, soccer on blades, is more fun to me, more physical... yet can still be boring.

Edited by GockeS

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On 3/25/2021 at 9:30 PM, jross said:

 


I want the top man to try to score back points because that is all I know.  It is what I enjoy to watch.  RBY held claw for most of the 2nd period and had an ankle hooked for about 45 seconds.  At least four times he had an ankle hooked from 6 to 25 seconds.  That was not enjoyable for me to watch at all. 

This added to a poor first period for RBY, one where Fix controlled center mat, Fix pressed the action, Fix took the first shot, Fix took more shots, etc.  RBY's first period was not egregious but he was trying to survive the period without being scored on... rather than trying to score himself.  So RBY tries not to score in the first and tries not to score in the second... it was tactical and ugly for me to watch.  Several finalists were so afraid to lose that they forgot to wrestle... 

i agree, if holding on with my hand is worth a 5 count for stalling, hooking with my foot is as well.

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On 3/24/2021 at 7:11 AM, patmilkovich said:

jp...since it appears you are referring to my comment, I would be very interested to read your dissertation on the simplicity of teaching top/bottom wresting. I enjoy learning from others.

I had not noticed this since you didn’t actually reply to me

It is both my experience and the experience of many coaches, including multiple time state champion coach Daryl Weber. You can listen to his Attack style wrestling podcast if you doubt me. That... 

In order of difficulty teaching.. and most importantly... getting kids to actually execute the techniques in actual matches.. the order (from easiest to hardest)

1. Top

2. bottom

3. neutral defense(snapdowns, front headlock, baseline)

4. Neutral Offense - shots most specifically 

 

Top it seems to be because of it being more isometric in nature. As well as the fact that the techniques are pretty accessible. There are also many drills one can rep to help build up their riding. 
 

Bottom you can drill the hell out of of it and brainwash them. 
 

The neutral stuff should be self evident. 
 

Many coaches have had the experience of their kid floundering in neutral then finally getting on top and decking their opponent. 
 

If their is some magic way of teaching neutral I’m missing I’d like to hear it though

 


 

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2 hours ago, GockeS said:

i agree, if holding on with my hand is worth a 5 count for stalling, hooking with my foot is as well.

Wrestling requires your entire body. You use your feet in wrestling. You hold onto wrists with your hands, right? Using your feet in neutral, right? On bottom? Check. You can use them and should use them on top. If the bottom man can't get out, then he needs to learn techniques that help him get out. 

Today's complaint is just an updated complaint from Zain's leg ride being the problem, then Tony Nelson's ride being a problem. It ain't the rider, its the guy being ridden that needs a changin here.

Edited by TBar1977

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41 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Wrestling requires your entire body. You use your feet in wrestling. You hold onto wrists with your hands, right? Using your feet in neutral, right? On bottom? Check. You can use them and should use them on top. If the bottom man can't get out, then he needs to learn techniques that help him get out. 

Today's complaint is just an updated complaint from Zain's leg ride being the problem, then Tony Nelson's ride being a problem. It ain't the rider, its the guy being ridden that needs a changin here.

exactly - folkstyle is about a clash of sytyles and skills in all three periods and no need to change this

I do favor trying a pushout rule and point and see if that improves action from neutral

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Wrestling requires your entire body. You use your feet in wrestling. You hold onto wrists with your hands, right? Using your feet in neutral, right? On bottom? Check. You can use them and should use them on top. If the bottom man can't get out, then he needs to learn techniques that help him get out. 

Today's complaint is just an updated complaint from Zain's leg ride being the problem, then Tony Nelson's ride being a problem. It ain't the rider, its the guy being ridden that needs a changin here.

sorry

i have been complaining about the sundevil ride for years.

its actually worse than hanging on with your hand

now the claw... thats fine... but if grabbing an ankle is worth a five count, so is hooking it.

if you aren't going to put it on for hooking it, then why have the one for grabbing legs below the knees?

 

i mean if it really is about control(and it is)...why do we have a 5 second count for grabbing ankle... get rid of it as well

its harder to control an ankle with my hand than with my leg

Edited by GockeS

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18 minutes ago, Elevator said:

exactly - folkstyle is about a clash of sytyles and skills in all three periods and no need to change this

I do favor trying a pushout rule and point and see if that improves action from neutral

clash of styles... wouldn't styles include using the edge in neutral?

no need to change to pushout

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6 minutes ago, GockeS said:

sorry

i have been complaining about the sundevil ride for years.

its actually worse than hanging on with your hand

now the claw... thats fine... but if grabbing an ankle is worth a five count, so is hooking it.

if you aren't going to put it on for hooking it, then why have the one for grabbing legs below the knees?

 

i mean if it really is about control(and it is)...why do we have a 5 second count for grabbing ankle... get rid of it as well

its harder to control an ankle with my hand than with my leg

Because anyone can drop the hand to the ankle almost immediately and walk the guy off the mat. That is not even that skillful. 

Keeping a man down with forward pressure up top and using your legs to trap the bottom man creates a situation where the more skillful wrestler, either the top OR bottom man will prevail. If Alex Marinelli rode Joe Lee this way this year do you think Joe Lee escapes? Probably not. Now, if Robert Howard tries to keep Spencer Lee down this way, will he fare as well as Marinelli did with Joe Lee? No, because Spencer is the better wrestler. 

A wrestler being ridden like a rented mule under the current rules needs to improve his skill set. 

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

clash of styles... wouldn't styles include using the edge in neutral?

no need to change to pushout

Using the edge all the time is another situation where it takes no skill to avoid action. Just back up one pace. It is for that reason the edge wrestler will eventually get called for stalling. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Wrestling requires your entire body. You use your feet in wrestling. You hold onto wrists with your hands, right? Using your feet in neutral, right? On bottom? Check. You can use them and should use them on top. If the bottom man can't get out, then he needs to learn techniques that help him get out. 

Today's complaint is just an updated complaint from Zain's leg ride being the problem, then Tony Nelson's ride being a problem. It ain't the rider, its the guy being ridden that needs a changin here.

You really don’t think the hook an ankle ride is stalling?  LOL.

It most certainly is.  Just like the spiral (Marinelli) or double boots (Fix) if they don’t do anything with it.

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24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

You really don’t think the hook an ankle ride is stalling?  LOL.

It most certainly is.  Just like the spiral (Marinelli) or double boots (Fix) if they don’t do anything with it.

No, I do n't think it is stalling. What I do think is that if the top man can be viewed by the ref as not working for a turn then there is a need for a restart. Big difference between what you want to do i.e. create stall points against the better more dominant wrestler and what I want i.e. reset the position to create more action. 

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