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Stalling on top ....It's a PROBLEM

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31 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

No, I do n't think it is stalling. What I do think is that if the top man can be viewed by the ref as not working for a turn then there is a need for a restart. Big difference between what you want to do i.e. create stall points against the better more dominant wrestler and what I want i.e. reset the position to create more action. 

So how does sitting on an ankle help in "working for a turn"?

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

So how does sitting on an ankle help in "working for a turn"?

Show me some specifics of what bothers you enough to want to reward a lesser wrestler who simply doesn't have the strength, skill or technique to escape over a better wrestler who is keeping him under control. Video would be helpful. 

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44 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Show me some specifics of what bothers you enough to want to reward a lesser wrestler who simply doesn't have the strength, skill or technique to escape over a better wrestler who is keeping him under control. Video would be helpful. 

I mean if you don't want to "reward a lesser wrestler who simply doesn't have the strength, skill or technique to escape over a better wrestler who is keeping him under control," then no one should ever get called for stalling on top.

I'd start with when RBY got hit for stalling in the finals...most blatant example starts around 6:05

 

 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

Those wrestlers need to improve from bottom. If they can't get out, work harder. 

OK so your position is stalling should never be called from top then, correct?

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

OK so your position is stalling should never be called from top then, correct?

No, my position is that what you showed me is not stalling. PSU had one top stall call the whole tournament to my knowledge and you showed that call, but I felt that was a horrible call. Look, you want to outlaw PSU riding techniques because your Iowa guys (insert here that you are not an Iowa fan) can't get out and you are using this forum to state your case. Good luck with that. Zain's ride never got outlawed. Nelson's ride never got outlawed. The way PSU dominates from top right now isn't going to be outlawed.

The only ride I have seen seriously changed was the grab the ankle and walk the bottom guy out of bounds. You know who used that extensively? Iowa did, among others. 

Done discussing this issue. Pointless conversation at this time. 

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

No, my position is that what you showed me is not stalling. PSU had one top stall call the whole tournament to my knowledge and you showed that call, but I felt that was a horrible call. Look, you want to outlaw PSU riding techniques because your Iowa guys (insert here that you are not an Iowa fan) can't get out and you are using this forum to state your case. Good luck with that. Zain's ride never got outlawed. Nelson's ride never got outlawed. The way PSU dominates from top right now isn't going to be outlawed.

The only ride I have seen seriously changed was the grab the ankle and walk the bottom guy out of bounds. You know who used that extensively? Iowa did, among others. 

Done discussing this issue. Pointless conversation at this time. 

What a typical sniveling little response. Eh stalling is only ok if your team does it. I’m used to fans but you are a different level of sniveling and groveling for them

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If what Starocci was doing is stalling, what is leg riding?   Starocci was in a constant state of either trying to break him down or trying to tilt him.  As opposed to holding an opponent for 90 seconds in a position where you don't even get a 1 count.  At least Starocci got that far. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

No, my position is that what you showed me is not stalling. PSU had one top stall call the whole tournament to my knowledge and you showed that call, but I felt that was a horrible call. Look, you want to outlaw PSU riding techniques because your Iowa guys (insert here that you are not an Iowa fan) can't get out and you are using this forum to state your case. Good luck with that. Zain's ride never got outlawed. Nelson's ride never got outlawed. The way PSU dominates from top right now isn't going to be outlawed.

The only ride I have seen seriously changed was the grab the ankle and walk the bottom guy out of bounds. You know who used that extensively? Iowa did, among others. 

Done discussing this issue. Pointless conversation at this time. 

I’m not an Iowa fan.  Did you miss where I said Marinelli’s spiral is stalling too?

You never answered my question...how does sitting on an ankle help in “working for a turn” (your words)?   Or even, what makes that any better than Marinelli’s spiral for example?  Honest questions.

I don’t recall people saying Zain stalled.  He turned guys.   I also don’t really recall message board posts from 2014, or much of Tony Nelson’s riding style for that matter. I just watched some dual of him vs Telford and looks like he does something similar to the Marinelli spiral stall ride.  Yes that’s stalling too.

I mean you don’t have to technically “outlaw the ride,” although I do think adding sitting on the ankle to the list of 5 counts wouldn’t be a bad idea.  Just call stalling when it happens.  I think OP’s point which I agree with is that guys (lots of them, not just PSU) are not getting called for stalling when they should be, so saying “well they didn’t get hit with stalling!” is kinda the point of the argument..:they should’ve been.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

If what Starocci was doing is stalling, what is leg riding?   Starocci was in a constant state of either trying to break him down or trying to tilt him.  As opposed to holding an opponent for 90 seconds in a position where you don't even get a 1 count.  At least Starocci got that far. 

6:50-7:00 in that video especially is definitely stalling.  He’s not trying to break him down, he’s literally sitting on his ankle while Romero stands up and just waiting until he comes back down because he can’t go anywhere since his foot is trapped.

The sitting on the ankle thing doesn’t really seem to set up near fall.  I think the closest he got to NF in that match was when they were basically out of bounds and I wouldn’t say he used the ankle thing to set that up.  Not to mention immediately following that he employed the also now common (which Marinelli does too), “lay on the opponent and do nothing while the opponent is completely out of bounds but I keep a toe in” technique.  I think refs should be able to call that OOB when the top guy is clearly doing nothing but trying to get a few more seconds of RT.

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3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

6:50-7:00 in that video especially is definitely stalling.  He’s not trying to break him down, he’s literally sitting on his ankle while Romero stands up and just waiting until he comes back down because he can’t go anywhere since his foot is trapped.

The sitting on the ankle thing doesn’t really seem to set up near fall.  I think the closest he got to NF in that match was when they were basically out of bounds and I wouldn’t say he used the ankle thing to set that up.  Not to mention immediately following that he employed the also now common (which Marinelli does too), “lay on the opponent and do nothing while the opponent is completely out of bounds but I keep a toe in” technique.  I think refs should be able to call that OOB when the top guy is clearly doing nothing but trying to get a few more seconds of RT.

He will argue he needed to stop Romero's motion before he could break him down.  This situation was weird because there was almost constant motion.  Very similar to stand up, drive to edge, step out of bounds, repeat. 

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20 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Because anyone can drop the hand to the ankle almost immediately and walk the guy off the mat. That is not even that skillful. 

Keeping a man down with forward pressure up top and using your legs to trap the bottom man creates a situation where the more skillful wrestler, either the top OR bottom man will prevail. If Alex Marinelli rode Joe Lee this way this year do you think Joe Lee escapes? Probably not. Now, if Robert Howard tries to keep Spencer Lee down this way, will he fare as well as Marinelli did with Joe Lee? No, because Spencer is the better wrestler. 

A wrestler being ridden like a rented mule under the current rules needs to improve his skill set. 

so wait, you are saying there are techniques to get out from the guy hooking your ankle with his leg, i agree, there are.

but you are saying that a person can't escape a guys hand on his ankle?

you kidding right? 

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20 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Using the edge all the time is another situation where it takes no skill to avoid action. Just back up one pace. It is for that reason the edge wrestler will eventually get called for stalling. 

but isn't it a style of wrestling? that clashes with others? 

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20 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

No, I do n't think it is stalling. What I do think is that if the top man can be viewed by the ref as not working for a turn then there is a need for a restart. Big difference between what you want to do i.e. create stall points against the better more dominant wrestler and what I want i.e. reset the position to create more action. 

i agree, if he is actively using the ankle to elevate it and try to get the leg in or even using the claw to try to crank its good

but thats not the case in many instances i have seen

and btw, im not even talking about rby

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17 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Starocci in the semis - start around 6:45, Romero is trying to stand up and Starocci is literally sitting on his ankle

 

at 6:45 i see that as a legit attempt to stop a stand up... not the stalling im talking about 

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17 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I mean if you don't want to "reward a lesser wrestler who simply doesn't have the strength, skill or technique to escape over a better wrestler who is keeping him under control," then no one should ever get called for stalling on top.

I'd start with when RBY got hit for stalling in the finals...most blatant example starts around 6:05

 

 

yes, this at 605 is what im talking about

he is just hanging

even grabs the other ankle...but there is a count so he lets go.. just hanging.

now is fix using the correct technique? no.... but it doesn' tmean rby isn't stalling 

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14 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

PSU had one top stall call the whole tournament to my knowledge and you showed that call, but I felt that was a horrible call.

right there.

something wrong with that.

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30 minutes ago, BadgerMon said:

Not in our state (South Dakota). It was much earlier.

I was talking about when I graduated college - D1 Lehigh U - It was legal then.  It was also still legal in New England HS wrestling through the early 80s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The only thing I saw that would concern me as a coach or a referee was PSU stayed locked in place with the claw...if he was a little more savvy, he would have "looked busy." "Looking Busy" is and art too, whether in neutral, top, or bottom. He could have gotten off the leg hook and moved out to the side.  OSU wasn't going anywhere with the claw anyway. He could have moved out to the side and bumped the elbow with his knee and OSU goes flat and his wrists are vulnerable, and then he has to work back up.  It's a game and one needs to learn how to play it. Controlling someone from top is a great weapon, just like getting out on bottom is a great weapon. Which of the two has the knowledge and training to use the weapon better. If the 5 count limits use of the hands on the ankle (to help the bottom guy apparently) then smart wrestlers learn how to improvise...pinching the down man's leg or throwing in legs. Not his fault the bottom man has no defense or counter. Rick Sanders used to say when he was on bottom, he had his opponent right where he wanted him. That's the way to look at it. I don't understand why folks are so against "riding." There are a lot of guys you will never get a chance to turn.  The next best option is to control and limit, tire him out, make him work to keep position, keep him from scoring, frustrate him, get your RT, and get in his head because he knows you are better on top than he is on bottom.  They eliminated RT in HS, went to top, bottom, neutral, defer, and that changed the quality of T/B wrestling.  No more skills and strategies to build on at college. The guys who did have good T/B coaching in HS seem to be very effective in college. Furthermore, you have so many coaches and kids wrestling freestyle, which virtually eliminates T and B (of course it's easier to eliminate folkstyle T/B). So, they get in college and flatten out on bottom, look helpless, and lobby the ref for help or rule changes to help them. Watch the NCAA's. Lots of kids on bottom breaking down to their elbows...Big NO NO, or they get broken down to their stomach, or they get their wrists caught. For a multitude of reasons, I would much prefer you to have my ankles than my wrists, but that's just me.  

Edited by patmilkovich
wording correction

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5 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

Furthermore, you have so many coaches and kids wrestling freestyle, which virtually eliminates T and B (of course it's easier to eliminate folkstyle T/B). So, they get in college and flatten out on bottom, look helpless, and lobby the ref for help or rule changes to help them. 

Like.

Wrestlers lobbying refs for help or rules changes leads to fans pleading rule makers for rules changes. This thread is Exhibit A. 

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