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lu1979

Curious if this should have Cost Spencer Lee a Point

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At the end of the second period of the Lee/Courtney finals Spencer Locks up his bar arm tilt.  He couldn't reach Courtney's wrist so he grabbed Courtney's one finger and pulled the tilt over.  Is that legal or should that have been called as an illegal move?   It definitely looks like a good way to dislocate a finger.  If any refs want to chime in have at it.

Edited by lu1979

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Just now, lu1979 said:

At the end of the second period of the Lee/Courtney finals Spencer Locks up his bar arm tilt.  He couldn't reach Courtney's wrist so he grabbed Courtney's one finger and pulled the tilt over.  Is that legal or should that have been called as an illegal move?   It definitely looks like a good way to dislocate a finger.  If any refs want to chime in I would have at it.

Probably but it wouldn't have changed the outcome at all, so who cares? This is #3,184,236 in the list of worst missed calls from this past NCAAs.

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14 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Probably but it wouldn't have changed the outcome at all, so who cares? This is #3,184,236 in the list of worst missed calls from this past NCAAs.

Of course it wouldn't change the outcome - I just thought it was interesting that the refs did not call it and the ASU corner didn't object either.   I was really looking for a comment from someone with real insight into how the rules should be applied in that instance.   Should that be called as a penalty?

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Yeah it’s a penalty, but it’s never called unless it’s egregious which I think is probably right. Idk if it’s classified as a technical violation or unnecessary roughness or whatever. Would hate for someone to use it to win a match by saying they can’t continue due to a hurt finger caused by the penalty.

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This falls into the "unwritten rules" category.  Technical violations don't allow for evaluation of intent, and whether or not the violation creates or prevents a score isn't in the rulebook either.  Still, referees definitely pay attention to these two factors when determining whether to overlook or enforce certain violations...  And I'm generally ok with that.

This is where the brick comes into play.  Once it goes to the video, the rulebook is law and if the violation occured, the penalty is generally levied.  The video review on the Matt Brown-Tyler Wilps final in 2015 supports my argument pretty well.

On the other hand, the manipulation of the headgear in Fix-Suriano deteriorates my point... But we will say I'm right and that was merely an outlier.

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7 hours ago, simple said:

Yeah it’s a penalty, but it’s never called unless it’s egregious which I think is probably right. Idk if it’s classified as a technical violation or unnecessary roughness or whatever. Would hate for someone to use it to win a match by saying they can’t continue due to a hurt finger caused by the penalty.

Thanks for the clarification - I did think that should be viewed as "illegal" and warrant a penalty point.  It is likely that the ASU bench didn't have a good view of it or notice it at the time.

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Imagine if the ref called it.. and Courtney said he was unable to continue.. imagine that **** storm. 
 

And to anyone who says that’s outside the realm of possibility... you haven’t been paying attention the last few years 

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4 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Imagine if the ref called it.. and Courtney said he was unable to continue.. imagine that **** storm. 
 

And to anyone who says that’s outside the realm of possibility... you haven’t been paying attention the last few years 

That really would have been a mess JP - I would hope most D! athletes/coaches would not take that route to a win.  The last time I remember a situation like that in the NCAA tourney was 2003. Bobby Douglas was coaching at ISU - one of his guys Scott Coleman was injured by Mocco and a penalty was called.  Douglas did not have his guy take the win and that kept Mocco on the path to the finals where he won his 1st title.  

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Just now, lu1979 said:

That really would have been a mess JP - I would hope most D! athletes/coaches would not take that route to a win.  The last time I remember a situation like that in the NCAA tourney was 2003. Bobby Douglas was coaching at ISU - one of his guys Scott Coleman was injured by Mocco and a penalty was called.  Douglas did not have his guy take the win and that kept Mocco on the path to the finals where he won his 1st title.  

I hope so to but I’ve seen it increasingly over the years 

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11 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It is no longer illegal to grab a single finger, but it is illegal to crank on one.  It happened pretty fast, so hard to get a good look.  Courtney didn't show any signs that he cranked on it, so I say that was legal.

That's it.  You can grab just one, but don't twist it.

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