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3 hours ago, Drew87 said:

I am gently opinionated when it comes to the motivations of individual universities and their administrators...

I think people need to be more opinionated. Our future depends on it. 

Gov't creates programs to help with tuition and the universities raise prices to gobble up that money. If they want to cancel student debt they should start by drawing down the endowments or take it thru a negotiated settlement with the university faculty pension funds. 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I think people need to be more opinionated. Our future depends on it. 

Gov't creates programs to help with tuition and the universities raise prices to gobble up that money. If they want to cancel student debt they should start by drawing down the endowments or take it thru a negotiated settlement with the university faculty pension funds. 

 

Yeah, there is very little opinion from the realm of elected officialdom in a while that feels on point, but the observation that Universities are just highly structured, tax incentivized asset management firms is frighteningly accurate.  Education and the betterment of lives is a potential side effect of attending, but is by no means the top priority of the institution nor in anyway guaranteed. 

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21 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Where is Frank Chamizo training currently? It seemed like they were training partners for the past year.

Otherwise, where is his younger brother looking?

Zander's career is over.  Had too many injuries.

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19 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Zander's career is over.  Had too many injuries.

I don't think he is not talking about Zander - he is talking about Luka who is graduating this year and is committed to Cal Poly.

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7 hours ago, Drew87 said:

I am gently opinionated when it comes to the motivations of individual universities and their administrators...

I understand. I am also gently opinionated about when people act like a lot of these kids were in positions to “work way out of” or “should’ve known better”

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1 hour ago, jp157 said:

I understand. I am also gently opinionated about when people act like a lot of these kids were in positions to “work way out of” or “should’ve known better”

Yeah, it would help with the post-college transition a lot if more majors had a portion of their requirements that were treated and behaved more like trade school.  It is a monster lane change in approach, requirement, mindset, etc. 

I want to hand out shirts and stickers that just say “call an alum before you do anything else.”

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8 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I think people need to be more opinionated. Our future depends on it. 

Gov't creates programs to help with tuition and the universities raise prices to gobble up that money. If they want to cancel student debt they should start by drawing down the endowments or take it thru a negotiated settlement with the university faculty pension funds. 

 

Yeah, let's screw over teachers and scientists at universities-great idea. If the government starts going after endowments, there will be no more D1 wrestling or any other non revenue athletics. I don't get how you are one of the biggest college wrestling fans on this forum, but then also have disdain for the people who actually are fulfilling the mission of the university (the faculty).  

In terms of taking the endowments, it's the universities with big endowments that leave their students with the least amount of debt and whose students are most likely to pay back the government (with interest) on their loans. Given the amount of money that is printed to service the debt at essentially zero interest (it's at 2% for a 20 year treasury), the interest the government collects on student loans is actually hugely beneficial (you print at 2% and then lend it out at 5%).  It's impossible to default on a student loan-but banks would happily buy up all the student loan debt the country has if it were only limited to being from the universities whose endowments are >1 billion. The problem is that many students take out big loans to attend awful (e.g. for profit or very low ranked) universities, and then end up never paying back their loans. 

 Attending a good university, even at the current tuition cost, is the best investment that somebody can make in terms of future earnings-it also creates an educated population, which has many benefits.  So rather than attack the big universities and their faculty-maybe focus on creating low cost options for those who aren't fortunate enough to attend a  place like PSU.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Yeah, let's screw over teachers and scientists at universities-great idea. If the government starts going after endowments, there will be no more D1 wrestling or any other non revenue athletics. I don't get how you are one of the biggest college wrestling fans on this forum, but then also have disdain for the people who actually are fulfilling the mission of the university (the faculty).  

In terms of taking the endowments, it's the universities with big endowments that leave their students with the least amount of debt and whose students are most likely to pay back the government (with interest) on their loans. Given the amount of money that is printed to service the debt at essentially zero interest (it's at 2% for a 20 year treasury), the interest the government collects on student loans is actually hugely beneficial (you print at 2% and then lend it out at 5%).  It's impossible to default on a student loan-but banks would happily buy up all the student loan debt the country has if it were only limited to being from the universities whose endowments are >1 billion. The problem is that many students take out big loans to attend awful (e.g. for profit or very low ranked) universities, and then end up never paying back their loans. 

 Attending a good university, even at the current tuition cost, is the best investment that somebody can make in terms of future earnings-it also creates an educated population, which has many benefits.  So rather than attack the big universities and their faculty-maybe focus on creating low cost options for those who aren't fortunate enough to attend a  place like PSU.  

I somewhat agree with your point, though I must make a few observations.  

Penn State is neither high cost nor a particularly high bar for higher education in the state of Pennsylvania, nor does it rank particularly high in terms of national public universities.

Now, regarding the money side of Universities.  The lion’s share of a student tuition does not go to professors.  It passes through a great many filters and other higher ups before it reached a professor’s bank account.  The majority of the highest cost, highest salaried individuals at Universities are non-teaching management and administrators.  There are layers upon layers of administration in each silo of the university, directors, provosts, whatever else they choose to call themselves.  Universities are gigantic, for-profit machines and their role in the country is employment and revenue generation first and foremost, far more than degree generation.  They are in fact so important for their financial contributions that Universities are not taxed! No way that’s great, and as long as they continue churning students through, the government will write them checks for whatever they can get students to agree to work off in the future. A college education is the only sort of loan where credit score etc will not keep you from getting a loan, and student debt has the nice little caveat of not being expunged via declaration of Bankruptcy.  

If you question this look at how aggressively all major state universities worked to ensure that big money, and big TV contract NCAA sports (basketball and football) happened and stayed viable regardless of the apparent health and COVID implications.  

I am sorry to say it, yes a student can benefit from attending a University, but that is neither the Universities primary mission nor their concern.  It may be the concern of some well meaning professors, but not the grander entity that is the University.  They care about 4 years of checks.  For students, yes you can get a good job, but frankly the internet age prioritizes and rewards entrepreneurship far more than the previous upper-middle class desk job.  Add in housing prices and the like, paying off four years of just undergraduate education from the “good job” you might get, but might not, starts to smell more of retooled voluntary indentured servitude, AKA securitizing your future to help pay obscene salaries of administrators who don’t know you, don’t care about you, and who you will never meet.  This is not an exception or outlier case.  This is the norm and operating standard of the land. 

I say all this as someone who absolutely had their life changed for the better by attending college, but that was more than a decade ago now, and frankly the math has completely changed.  Right now, in-state tuition, creative thinking, and a hearty serving of sweat and elbow grease are the best deal on the block by a long shot.  No professor is going to ride the desk with you for your 70+ hour work weeks saving little to no money and just literally paying back the proverbial man.  The equation no longer works. 

Edited by Drew87

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30 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

I somewhat agree with your point, though I must make a few observations.  

Penn State is neither high cost nor a particularly high bar for higher education in the state of Pennsylvania, nor does it rank particularly high in terms of national public universities.

Now, regarding the money side of Universities.  The lion’s share of a student tuition does not go to professors.  It passes through a great many filters and other higher ups before it reached a professor’s bank account.  The majority of the highest cost, highest salaried individuals at Universities are non-teaching management and administrators.  There are layers upon layers of administration in each silo of the university, directors, provosts, whatever else they choose to call themselves.  Universities are gigantic, for-profit machines and their role in the country is employment and revenue generation first and foremost, far more than degree generation.  They are in fact so important for their financial contributions that Universities are not taxed! No way that’s great, and as long as they continue churning students through, the government will write them checks for whatever they can get students to agree to work off in the future. A college education is the only sort of loan where credit score etc will not keep you from getting a loan, and student debt has the nice little caveat of not being expunged via declaration of Bankruptcy.  

If you question this look at how aggressively all major state universities worked to ensure that big money, and big TV contract NCAA sports (basketball and football) happened and stayed viable regardless of the apparent health and COVID implications.  

I am sorry to say it, yes a student can benefit from attending a University, but that is neither the Universities primary mission nor their concern.  It may be the concern of some well meaning professors, but not the grander entity that is the University.  They care about 4 years of checks.  For students, yes you can get a good job, but frankly the internet age prioritizes and rewards entrepreneurship far more than the previous upper-middle class desk job.  Add in housing prices and the like, paying off four years of just undergraduate education from the “good job” you might get, but might not, starts to smell more of retooled voluntary indentured servitude, AKA securitizing your future to help pay obscene salaries of administrators who don’t know you, don’t care about you, and who you will never meet.  This is not an exception or outlier case.  This is the norm and operating standard of the land. 

I say all this as someone who absolutely had their life changed for the better by attending college, but that was more than a decade ago now, and frankly the math has completely changed.  Right now, in-state tuition, creative thinking, and a hearty serving of sweat and elbow grease are the best deal on the block by a long shot.  No professor is going to ride the desk with you for your 70+ hour work weeks saving little to no money and just literally paying back the proverbial man.  The equation no longer works. 

Universities like PSU/Cornell are not for profit. The professors there are outstanding and do a great job educating the students. There are some for-profit universities, and I agree that they are scams.  Even though PSU lets in 75% of applicants, it is still a very good university and the loans required to attend there likely cost the government next to nothing, since most are paid back.  The faculty at PSU in many disciplines are more accomplished than those at "elite" liberal arts schools. It's the really bad schools/colleges, the ones that are letting absolutely anybody in and are only there for tuition, that make the student loan system insolvent.  

I really don't understand what the point of your post is.  Could you simplify it for me in a couple of sentences?  Here is my point:  Going to PSU or Cornell or Ohio State or Iowa is a good investment by both the student in terms of return on tuition in future earnings, and the government in terms of return on investment of a loan. Their faculty and their endowments are not a problem at all and are hugely beneficial for all involved. Going to a for profit college like the University of Phoenix online or certain low ranked private colleges is a poor investment by both the student and government.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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11 hours ago, lu1979 said:

I don't think he is not talking about Zander - he is talking about Luka who is graduating this year and is committed to Cal Poly.

Ahhh.  I thought he was.  Forgot Luka was this old already lol

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32 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Ahhh.  I thought he was.  Forgot Luka was this old already lol

While Zander was forced out of wrestling a couple of years back because of injuries, he continued his education at Wisconsin and just graduated this spring.

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Billyhoyle, the part you bolded above "faculty pensions" should read faculty and admin pensions.

I understand your point of view that a university education is a win all the way around, but my point is that it should not have come with a 60 year inflation rate that dwarfs inflation in every other sector of the economy and despite the grant and low cost loan programs still saddles so many with debt that takes 10 yrs or longer to pay off. 

If debt is going to simply be forgiven, then why should tax payers who financed their own expensive educations be on the hook while those that charged the enormous inflation on steroids costs get a free pass? 

Also, the pensions paid to faculty and admin are enormous. They are only sustainable because of the ridiculously high cost of college. It is hardly unusual for the English or 'ology' prof to have a 2.5 multiplier in their pension formula while the brain, heart and ortho surgeons, and all the R.N.'s too, at the hospitals run by Universities to have a pension multiplier of half that amount. 

Asking taxpayers to foot yet another bill to keep this system that produces such financial outcomes as these seems very wrong. Send the bill to those that directly charged it. 

Edited by TBar1977

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11 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Universities like PSU/Cornell are not for profit. The professors there are outstanding and do a great job educating the students. There are some for-profit universities, and I agree that they are scams.  Even though PSU lets in 75% of applicants, it is still a very good university and the loans required to attend there likely cost the government next to nothing, since most are paid back.  The faculty at PSU in many disciplines are more accomplished than those at "elite" liberal arts schools. It's the really bad schools/colleges, the ones that are letting absolutely anybody in and are only there for tuition, that make the student loan system insolvent.  

I really don't understand what the point of your post is.  Could you simplify it for me in a couple of sentences?  Here is my point:  Going to PSU or Cornell or Ohio State or Iowa is a good investment by both the student in terms of return on tuition in future earnings, and the government in terms of return on investment of a loan. Their faculty and their endowments are not a problem at all and are hugely beneficial for all involved. Going to a for profit college like the University of Phoenix online or certain low ranked private colleges is a poor investment by both the student and government.  

 I think we are talking about different things.  I will readily agree that University of Phoenix is borderline criminal in what it does, but I was referring to actual real Colleges/Universities.  Ohio State/PSU and Cornell are very different types of institutions in that the former are an extension of the state government, and cornell is an entirely private institution.  Just bc a place calls itself “not for profit” and is afforded preferable tax status does not mean that they are not in the business if making money, I assure you they are.  When annual revenue and size of endowment are leading metrics of importance and concern across the industry, that speaks for itself as to institutional priorities and motivations. 

I think professors are wonderful, extremely important people in our society, and do many wonderful things for students, but they have been shackled/neutered in a very big way, and they are most definitely not calling the shots or making the decisions on College campuses.

Edited by Drew87

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Drew87, I agree with your thinking here. Being a "not for profit" (whether in university or any other space) is hardly an indication that people are being enriched. They are, and in a huge way. 

I read today that the average prof at one Ivy makes a little more than $218,000. This school was said to have 5000 profs. That is more than $1 billion just in prof salaries. Now add in the support staff, the admins, and all the pension costs and the money floating around is astounding. That doesn't even account for the building cost at these taj mahals. For the number of students enrolled, far less than at a state school, it is staggering. 

Not for profit is a tax status, not an indication money isn't exchanged hand over fist.

Edited by TBar1977

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13 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

 I think we are talking about different things.  I will readily agree that University of Phoenix is borderline criminal in what it does, but I was referring to actual real Colleges/Universities.  Ohio State/PSU and Cornell are very different types of institutions in that the former are an extension of the state government, and cornell is an entirely private institution.  Just bc a place calls itself “not for profit” and is afforded preferable tax status does not mean that they are not in the business if making money, I assure you they are.  When annual revenue and size of endowment are leading metrics of importance and concern across the industry, that speaks for itself as to institutional priorities and motivations. 

I think professors are wonderful, extremely important people in our society, and do many wonderful things for students, but they have been shackled/neutered in a very big way, and they are most definitely not calling the shots or making the decisions on College campuses.

Cornell is not an 'entirely private institution'.  In fact it is a land grant university in which 4 colleges (Industrial and Labor Relations, Human Ecology, Veterinary Medicine, and Agriculture and Life Sciences) are part of the NY State university system.

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1 hour ago, cu155 said:

Cornell is not an 'entirely private institution'.  In fact it is a land grant university in which 4 colleges (Industrial and Labor Relations, Human Ecology, Veterinary Medicine, and Agriculture and Life Sciences) are part of the NY State university system.

That there is fascinating, I mistakenly assumed private status as part of membership in the Ivies.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Drew87, I agree with your thinking here. Being a "not for profit" (whether in university or any other space) is hardly an indication that people are being enriched. They are, and in a huge way. 

I read today that the average prof at one Ivy makes a little more than $218,000. This school was said to have 5000 profs. That is more than $1 billion just in prof salaries. Now add in the support staff, the admins, and all the pension costs and the money floating around is astounding. That doesn't even account for the building cost at these taj mahals. For the number of students enrolled, far less than at a state school, it is staggering. 

Not for profit is a tax status, not an indication money isn't exchanged hand over fist.

You are just a wealth of incorrect information.  Looks like you are doing something like taking the school with the highest full professor average salary (Harvard) and multiplying that value by an exaggerated total number of faculty elsewhere (Cornell), and coming up with a bogus total. Or just accepting whatever you read if it confirms your world view.  From Cornell's web site:

Quote

An estimated 2,900 faculty worldwide, with 1,678 on the Ithaca campus.

And according to The Business Insider, Cornell has the lowest average salary in the Ivy League at ~$175,000.  And that is just full professors, of which there are about 750.  You can look up some information here:  https://data.chronicle.com/190415/Cornell-University/faculty-salaries/

You really need to reconsider your information sources.

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33 minutes ago, klehner said:

You are just a wealth of incorrect information.  Looks like you are doing something like taking the school with the highest full professor average salary (Harvard) and multiplying that value by an exaggerated total number of faculty elsewhere (Cornell), and coming up with a bogus total. Or just accepting whatever you read if it confirms your world view.  From Cornell's web site:

And according to The Business Insider, Cornell has the lowest average salary in the Ivy League at ~$175,000.  And that is just full professors, of which there are about 750.  You can look up some information here:  https://data.chronicle.com/190415/Cornell-University/faculty-salaries/

You really need to reconsider your information sources.

"Looks like you are doing something ..."

You'd be wrong on all counts, but your imagination seems to be on overdrive. Neither Harvard OR Cornell are the school I mentioned above, the data for which comes from The Chronical of Higher Education. But carry on. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Drew87, I agree with your thinking here. Being a "not for profit" (whether in university or any other space) is hardly an indication that people are being enriched. They are, and in a huge way. 

I read today that the average prof at one Ivy makes a little more than $218,000. This school was said to have 5000 profs. That is more than $1 billion just in prof salaries. Now add in the support staff, the admins, and all the pension costs and the money floating around is astounding. That doesn't even account for the building cost at these taj mahals. For the number of students enrolled, far less than at a state school, it is staggering. 

Not for profit is a tax status, not an indication money isn't exchanged hand over fist.

Classic bad faith argument by taking the exception and acting like it's the rule. As someone who works at a university, the overwhelming majority of professors make below 100k and staff (i.e. me) far less.

Would love to see you bring this same energy about billionaires hoarding more wealth than they could spend in a 1000 lifetimes while people live out on the streets.

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4 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Billyhoyle, the part you bolded above "faculty pensions" should read faculty and admin pensions.

I understand your point of view that a university education is a win all the way around, but my point is that it should not have come with a 60 year inflation rate that dwarfs inflation in every other sector of the economy and despite the grant and low cost loan programs still saddles so many with debt that takes 10 yrs or longer to pay off. 

If debt is going to simply be forgiven, then why should tax payers who financed their own expensive educations be on the hook while those that charged the enormous inflation on steroids costs get a free pass? 

Also, the pensions paid to faculty and admin are enormous. They are only sustainable because of the ridiculously high cost of college. It is hardly unusual for the English or 'ology' prof to have a 2.5 multiplier in their pension formula while the brain, heart and ortho surgeons, and all the R.N.'s too, at the hospitals run by Universities to have a pension multiplier of half that amount. 

Asking taxpayers to foot yet another bill to keep this system that produces such financial outcomes as these seems very wrong. Send the bill to those that directly charged it. 

Have you considered that this would actually be good for the economy and good policy? I didn't see you complaining when Trump cut taxes on high earners and corporations, adding to the deficit, but the idea of helping out normal people who are struggling is asking too much of the "tax payers?"

Y'all are going to do an awful lot of whining when you finally realize that the reason birth rates are falling is because so many of my generation can't afford to start families even if they wanted to.

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3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

the reason birth rates are falling is because so many of my generation can't afford to start families even if they wanted to.

Preach my man, I’m right there with you, this is the truth of the truth. 

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7 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Drew87, I agree with your thinking here. Being a "not for profit" (whether in university or any other space) is hardly an indication that people are being enriched. They are, and in a huge way. 

I read today that the average prof at one Ivy makes a little more than $218,000. This school was said to have 5000 profs. That is more than $1 billion just in prof salaries. Now add in the support staff, the admins, and all the pension costs and the money floating around is astounding. That doesn't even account for the building cost at these taj mahals. For the number of students enrolled, far less than at a state school, it is staggering. 

Not for profit is a tax status, not an indication money isn't exchanged hand over fist.

200K is a competitive salary for the best professors. Any full professor in engineering, math, computer science, economics, science, and many other fields could easily make much more than that in industry, and they bring in millions in grant money (this is where the money for their salaries comes from). It’s what is needed to ensure that the best faculty are present at your university of choice. When you think of professors, maybe in your head you are thinking of a lecturer who teaches an intro to undergrad class. The ones who teach that class are not the ones making 200K-it’s the entire reason that the university system is a step up from high school-the faculty are world renowned experts. 

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

200K is a competitive salary for the best professors. Any full professor in engineering, math, computer science, economics, science, and many other fields could easily make much more than that in industry, and they bring in millions in grant money (this is where the money for their salaries comes from). It’s what is needed to ensure that the best faculty are present at your university of choice. When you think of professors, maybe in your head you are thinking of a lecturer who teaches an intro to undergrad class. The ones who teach that class are not the ones making 200K-it’s the entire reason that the university system is a step up from high school-the faculty are world renowned experts. 

The dynamic that I take issue with is not the professors, they are educators and have a direct hand in bettering the futures of young adults, that is and will always be an important role.

The part that I see as nearing predatory is the bloated roster of university employees who push paper, never ever meet or have an impact on a student, yet students are entirely responsible for footing the bill for the administrative bloat. Pay good professors because they earn it, deserve it, and are valuable.

Just as reference, and I apologize bc I do not know state school tuition numbers nearly as well, “private” college/university tuition and fees for a year was 50K ten years ago. It now exceeds 75K across the board.  That is paying for a ten pound prime rib and eating peanut butter sandwiches.  

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