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VakAttack

Hidlay-Brooks ending

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So in the moment, I thought it was a clear two (from my vantage point up high).  We had some discussion in the thread about it, and I said I'd revisit it.  I have now, and some thoughts:

1.  They were definitely not out of bounds as some suggested, unless we're talking Brooks grabbing the mat.

2.  Brooks hands were down with Hidlay behind him clearly.

3.  In the end, though, what really matters is the hand.  The moment it's off the mat, fair or not, it's automatic OOB is my understanding.  I assume that's why it was not called TD2, although it was never fully explained.  I hate it, but I'm pretty sure that's the bright line rule, and we saw a bunch of guys doing it all weekend.  I know @Husker_Du called out Stencel for one, and Brooks wasn't as blatant as that.  There were several others.  I think Eierman may have done it in his final, for example

It's also hard to get too worked up in Hidlay's defense given how little he did all match.  So I was wrong, I missed the hand being off the mat.  No TD was the right call.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

2.  Brooks hands were down with Hidlay behind him clearly.

I don't think you are trying to say this but if this is the same scenario I remember (I could be thinking of the wrong match) I don't think it could have been a hand touch td. As I recall, they were on the mat first and then came up to standing. You have to be in a rear standing position first then have the hand touch.

Art. 2. Hand-Touch Takedown. To award a takedown, reaction time is not required in instances in which a wrestler has rear-standing neutral control of their opponent and from the standing position the defending wrestler's hand comes in contact with the mat. (See Illustrations.)

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Yes, any body part touching off the mat is OOB and automatic stop.  It has been consistently this way for years and years, the refs should have blown the whistle as soon as his hand touched.  It's immaterial whether he grabbed the edge of the mat or not since the moment his fingernails grazed the boundary area the whistle should have been blown.

 

And yes, Hidlay backed up and did nothing for the first 6:30 of the match.  So he wasn't owed any stall calls like Spencer was versus Courtney.

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I don't think you are trying to say this but if this is the same scenario I remember (I could be thinking of the wrong match) I don't think it could have been a hand touch td. As I recall, they were on the mat first and then came up to standing. You have to be in a rear standing position first then have the hand touch.
Art. 2. Hand-Touch Takedown. To award a takedown, reaction time is not required in instances in which a wrestler has rear-standing neutral control of their opponent and from the standing position the defending wrestler's hand comes in contact with the mat. (See Illustrations.)
Interesting. Here's a screenshot. Hidlay drags Brooks back in and dives onto the hips, but Brooks' hands never leave the mat. You're saying that there is reaction time in that scenario? Well then definitely no takedown. I did not realize that was the rule, I thought that position was always a TD.24bf43e60a0cf734db004561079a72f2.jpg

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Would not have been mad at all if they hit Brooks for grabbing the mat. That's usually an automatic point. Would have taken some serious stones to do that though. Frankly surprised at how close this match was. Brooks wrestled the worst of the 4 lion finalists. Still got the job done though.

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7 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Interesting. Here's a screenshot. Hidlay drags Brooks back in and dives onto the hips, but Brooks' hands never leave the mat. You're saying that there is reaction time in that scenario? Well then definitely no takedown. I did not realize that was the rule, I thought that position was always a TD.24bf43e60a0cf734db004561079a72f2.jpg

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If he was down first, yes, reaction time.

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16 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Would not have been mad at all if they hit Brooks for grabbing the mat. That's usually an automatic point. Would have taken some serious stones to do that though. Frankly surprised at how close this match was. Brooks wrestled the worst of the 4 lion finalists. Still got the job done though.

You can’t call the mat grab because his hand touched beyond the mat first , and once that happens everything else after doesn’t count because the action is dead 

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The review was brief. No TD.

Also, 6:30 of edge wrestling from Trent left me amazed at the strategy.  I am confident Aaron gets multiple TDs if Trent fully engages in the center. 

That's kind of how Hidlay always wrestles though right? He wants you to come to him so he can blow through you with his underhook.

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27 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You can’t call the mat grab because his hand touched beyond the mat first , and once that happens everything else after doesn’t count because the action is dead 

Then I'd have been cool with a stall warning for fleeing straight out of bounds. 

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Grabbing the mat like Brooks did to stop a takedown should be an automatic penalty point. In no way is that a legitimate defensive tactic.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, there needs to be an extra piece of mat on the edges so we don't have to deal with guys touching the gym floor in the first place. I like the NCAA out of bounds rule, but it is consistently undermined by not having the proper size of mat to support it.

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Then I'd have been cool with a stall warning for fleeing straight out of bounds. 
No, should have been a point awarded for fleeing the mat


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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Then I'd have been cool with a stall warning for fleeing straight out of bounds. 

Fleeing the mat is such a garbage call, it’s rarely called, and when it is called it’s usually called at the wrong time...either they make the fleeing rule black and white and enforce it or ditch it all together....but yea stalling was warranted , but Hidley stalled for over 6 minutes, and his entire semi final as well, so I mean idk if you can reward him for taking 1 shot the whole match 

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1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Fleeing the mat is such a garbage call, it’s rarely called, and when it is called it’s usually called at the wrong time...either they make the fleeing rule black and white and enforce it or ditch it all together....but yea stalling was warranted , but Hidley stalled for over 6 minutes, and his entire semi final as well, so I mean idk if you can reward him for taking 1 shot the whole match 

Didn’t they get rid of fleeing the mat as an automatic penalty point? Thought it just falls under the stalling umbrella now.

I thought Brooks def should’ve been hit for intentionally reaching OOB, but Hidley couldve been hit a bunch earlier

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I thought for sure Brooks was going to get penalized for it, either stalling or fleeing. But I went back and watched the finals last night. Both Eierman and Kemerer did the same thing. One was way more blatant, the other could pass as incidental. But neither were called.

The worst example was the call on RBY. Fix carried him to the white ring and shoved him off the mat.

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Interesting. Here's a screenshot. Hidlay drags Brooks back in and dives onto the hips, but Brooks' hands never leave the mat. You're saying that there is reaction time in that scenario? Well then definitely no takedown. I did not realize that was the rule, I thought that position was always a TD.24bf43e60a0cf734db004561079a72f2.jpg

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Brooks’ hand touched the edge/off the mat before that. Plain as day.


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43 minutes ago, Le duke said:


Brooks’ hand touched the edge/off the mat before that. Plain as day.


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Maybe so.  But, they didn't call it and let the action continue.  So, it begs the question why that takedown wasn't called there.  Now, Casey has proven to be pretty savvy with the challenges, but he would have only been challenging the takedown and NOT an earlier OB possibility.  As such, if it were called a takedown, like I think it should have been, there is a different Champ at 184......

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Maybe so.  But, they didn't call it and let the action continue.  So, it begs the question why that takedown wasn't called there.  Now, Casey has proven to be pretty savvy with the challenges, but he would have only been challenging the takedown and NOT an earlier OB possibility.  As such, if it were called a takedown, like I think it should have been, there is a different Champ at 184......

 

 

They stopped it a second later. Hardly “let the action continue”. Then, upon review, they determined that they made the right call: action was dead. If you pause the video you can clearly see Brooks’ hand wrapped around the edge of the mat.

 

And, the score should have been 5-2 at that point. Or worse, if you add more stalling calls. Hidlay spent a minute in the first period alone OOB.

 

 

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