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7th year wrestlers in 2021-2022 sesaon

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34 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

I've long railed against kids being able to go on religious "missions" so they can start their college careers at 20 or 21 years old. That's ridiculous, and a huge advantage. Some guys here say "yeah, but they aren't wrestling". Doesn't matter, guys get stronger as they move from their teens to their twenties. 

You should talk to some of the guys who have done it and ask them what it was like to go to a college room after being off the mats for 2 years. 

So you are saying if Ferrari would waited 2 years he could deadlift 695? 

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

I am all for EVERY wrestler getting his legitimate crack at 4 NCAA tournaments. If they missed 1 because the tournament was cancelled due to a pandemic or they missed a year due to injury or both. 
 

these guys work way too damn hard to lose out on  goals like being a 4X AA or getting that last shot at being a champ. 

For real, kind of unreal how Kolodzik and Hall only get 3 ncaa tournaments but Eierman will be wrestling in his 5th this year, and all the freshman this season will have a crack at 5 in a few years, idk how the NCAA thought this was a fair system 

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People have added Anthony Valencia, Korbin Meyers, and Logan Massa who were all high school class of 2015.  Myers and Valencia used a regular redshirt then an injury year/6th year waiver along with the COVID year to open the opportunity for a 7th year.  Massa was a regular redshirt, olympic redshirt, and a COVID year.  Not sure on their status for next season.

Here are some others that could come back for a 7th or 8th year.

Boo Lewallan: High school class of 2015.  2015-2016 Redshirt, 2016-2017 Reshirt Freshman, 2017-2018 Redshirt Sophomore, 2018-2019 injured/recevied 6th year waiver, 2019-2020 5th year Junior, 2020-2021 6th year senior/COVID year, 2021-2022 7th year senior

Myles Amine: High school class of 2015.  2015-2016 Redshirt, 2016-2017 Reshirt Freshman, 2017-2018 Redshirt Sophomore, 2018-2019 Redshirt Junior, 2019-2020 Olympic Redshirt, 2020-2021 6th year senior/COVID year, 2021-2022 7th year senior

Anthony Cassar: High school class of 2014,  2014-2015 Reshirt, 2015-2016 Injured, 2016-2017 Injured, 2017-2018 4th year Freshman (recieved medical waiver/6th & 7th year waiver), 2018-2019 5th year Sophomore, 2019-2020 6th year Junior/injured wrestled 3 matches, 2020-2021 Did not wrestle/7th year senior/Covid year, 2021-2022 8th year senior?

These next next two wouldn't be 7th years in 2021-2022, but could be wrestling in college 7+ years after high school graduation

Mason Manville: High school class of 2016.  2016-2017 Greyshirt at OTC, 2017-2018 regular redshirt, 2018-2019 redshirt freshman, 2019-2020 Olympic redshirt, 2020-2021 Did not wrestle/COVID year, 2021-2022 will be redshirt Sophomore, 2022-2023 will be redshirt junior, 2023-2024 redshirt senior (possible 2nd olympic redshirt?) If his last year in collegiate wrestling is 2023-2024 that will be his 8th year since high school if its 2024-2025 that will be 9th

Daton Fix: high school class of 2017.  2017-2018 regular redshirt, 2018-2019 redshirt freshman, 2019-2020 Olympic redshirt, 2020-2021 redshirt sophomore/COVID year, 2021-2022 5th year sophomore, 2022-2023 6th year junior, 2023-2024 7th year senior/possibly 2nd olympic redshirt, 2024-2025 8th year senior

 

 

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

I am all for EVERY wrestler getting his legitimate crack at 4 NCAA tournaments. If they missed 1 because the tournament was cancelled due to a pandemic or they missed a year due to injury or both. 
 

these guys work way too damn hard to lose out on  goals like being a 4X AA or getting that last shot at being a champ. 

Not everyone can make the starting lineup.  Injuries can happen. There's no shame in missing a year because you are a backup or are hurt-we don't need "redshirt" years to make up for this.  You should get 4 years in college, and however many NCAAs you can wrestle in those four years, that's what you do. The Ivy league and D3 have instituted this rule and it works great for the teams that follow it. Also, if you are at an RTC but not registered at the school, that should count as a year of eligibility.  The incentive should not be on the coaches to take up 5 to 6 years of these athletes' lives to score team points at NCAAs.  

There are two groups of NCAA D1 athletes: Those who want to make a career out of wrestling and those who want to compete while focusing mainly on their education.  For the former, it is best that they get to freestyle/greco ASAP, since there is no actual professional folkstyle.  For the latter, being in college for extra years delays their careers.

The current system of grayshirts/redshirts is a completely negative process, where coaches are forced to do it because other coaches do it as well.  If everyone got 4 years only, it would benefit the athletes and there would be no negative for the coaches.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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34 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

For real, kind of unreal how Kolodzik and Hall only get 3 ncaa tournaments but Eierman will be wrestling in his 5th this year, and all the freshman this season will have a crack at 5 in a few years, idk how the NCAA thought this was a fair system 

In wrestling the national tournament makes the entire season, but 2019-2020 was essentially a full season of competition.  Literally a single event was cancelled albiet the most important one.  It sucks, but I don't think the NCAA would give an injury waiver/6th year waiver if someone wrestled a full season and got injured between the conference tournament and NCAAs.  I suspect the decision was made for all sports and not a different rule for each sport.  Some emphasize the regular season more than others.

Kolodzik graduated high school in 2015 and took a greyshirt before starting at Princeton.  If he didn't pull his olympic redshirt mid season last year he would be in line for a 7th year next season too.  Hall was class of 2016 and wreslted 4 straight years out of high school.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

You should get 4 years in college, and however many NCAAs you can wrestle in those four years, that's what you do. The Ivy league and D3 have instituted this rule and it works great for the teams that follow it. 

In D2 and D3 you can get really old student athletes.  The eligibility clock in these divisions stop when a student is not enrolled full time.  So an wrestler could wrestle three years their first 3 years out of high school, graduate, get a job work ten years, return for graduate school and complete their 4th year of competition in their 30s.  Sure D3 has a no-redshirt rule but that only prevents a wrestler from practicing with the team during the "redshirt" year.  The wrestler could practice at a club/RTC whilst taking full time classes in the "redshirt year."  They could even take another "redshirt" year and do that same so long as they are not enrolled fulltime.  The no-redshirt year essentially means that if an athlete practices with the team after teams first competition it counts as a year of participation regardless of whether or not the individual participates in a competition.    

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14 hours ago, simple said:

Lol at guys who will be weeks shy of 26 by the time Nationals rolls around next wanting to compete against 18-22 year olds. They’ll be beating up on guys who can’t even legally drink yet. Imagine being past your prime already by the time you’re done in college...

They’re all great wrestlers, but lol. Gonna try sneaking back into high school next?

I graduated in 4.5 years and was past my prime about halfway through that. :-)

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I can't imagine going through that for another three-four years from a physical, mental, and emotional standpoint. They can do whatever they want with their lives, but someone should tell them how much easier working and getting paid is than college wrestling. 

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4-5 years from now the “7th year” won’t be that uncommon.  Iowa is just getting flack for it since they have guys that are seniors now that will be that next year.  In addition to the guys already mentioned:

Phillippi will be a 6th year junior next year

If Beard and Joe Lee use the free year they will be 7th year seniors since they grayshirted + redshirted.  Seth Nevills will too if he takes a regular redshirt.

Basically if any freshman this year uses all 5 years but takes a regular redshirt then either a medical or Olympic redshirt, they’ll be a 7th year senior.  People need to get over it, because it’s not going to be that rare.

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Just thought of it from the Cornell thread but Dean will be a 6th year junior, and Arujua and Mekhi Lewis will be 5th year sophomores.
They need to adopt new redshirt rules.

Redshirts should only be used for injuries imo.

Five years to complete 4 years of eligibility.


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12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

4-5 years from now the “7th year” won’t be that uncommon.  Iowa is just getting flack for it since they have guys that are seniors now that will be that next year.  

 

I can picture a conversation between Coach Brands and one of his 7th, 8th, 12th year guys. 

Brands "I heard you went to the doctor, what is it, your knee"?

Wrestler: "No Coach, its not my knee"

Brands: Well, is it your ankle"?

Wrestler: "No Coach, it isn't my ankle"

Brands: "Please don't tell me its your shoulder. Please not that"

Wrestler: "No Coach, its not my shoulder"

Brands: "Well then, what is it"?

Wrestler: "You see Coach, I have been waking up frequently in the middle of the night"

Brands: "Please don't tell me you are having nightmares"

Wrestler: "Well, now that you mention it I do have some bad dreams regarding those PSU guys, but that's not it. You see, I have to get up frequently to go to the bathroom................" 

 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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On 3/25/2021 at 10:54 PM, Billyhoyle said:

Not everyone can make the starting lineup.  Injuries can happen. There's no shame in missing a year because you are a backup or are hurt-we don't need "redshirt" years to make up for this.  You should get 4 years in college, and however many NCAAs you can wrestle in those four years, that's what you do. The Ivy league and D3 have instituted this rule and it works great for the teams that follow it. Also, if you are at an RTC but not registered at the school, that should count as a year of eligibility.  The incentive should not be on the coaches to take up 5 to 6 years of these athletes' lives to score team points at NCAAs.  

There are two groups of NCAA D1 athletes: Those who want to make a career out of wrestling and those who want to compete while focusing mainly on their education.  For the former, it is best that they get to freestyle/greco ASAP, since there is no actual professional folkstyle.  For the latter, being in college for extra years delays their careers.

The current system of grayshirts/redshirts is a completely negative process, where coaches are forced to do it because other coaches do it as well.  If everyone got 4 years only, it would benefit the athletes and there would be no negative for the coaches.

You make the statement that your proposed policy would "benefit the athletes"  without acknowledging that these are grown young men fully capable of deciding what they want to do.  Last I heard there was not a policy that required anyone to extend their college careers past 4 years.  If an athlete (ie K Snyder) wants to go through in 4 years he can.  Without the Pandemic that is probably what Spencer Lee would have done.  If these young men choose to extend their careers (often times getting valuable graduate degrees while doing so) why should that be denied them.  As far "grey shirts" or Mormon missions or any other reason individuals may choose to delay the start of their college education I don't see how you or the NCAA are going to regulate that.

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3 hours ago, lu1979 said:

As far "grey shirts" or Mormon missions or any other reason individuals may choose to delay the start of their college education I don't see how you or the NCAA are going to regulate that.

The NCAA does regulate that.  Athletes have 1 year from when they gradutate high school to enroll fulltime in college.  So an athlete that graduates in June 2021 will have until the fall of 2022 to enroll full time in collge.  During that 1 year grace period they can continue competing in their sport.  For a wrestler this might mean training at the OTC or an RTC for a year and compete on the freestyle curcuit maybe wrestles Midlands or some other  opens unattached.  If this wrestler didn't enroll in 2022 but continued competing they would lose a year of eligibility.  I suppose someone could defer enrollment for a second year and continue practicing but could not enter a competition and not lose eligibility.  Point is the NCAA has regulations on delayed enrollment and could change them if they so choose.  However, I agree with you that BillyHoyle cannot regulate this.  

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Darmstadt is up there too.

My feelings on this (and several other rules that are gamed, like out of bounds stalling)

are 'don't hate the athlete, hate the rules'.

if the rules are screwed up, they need to fix them. don't blame guys for taking advantage of what's allowed by the rules.

(also complaining about mormon missions is effing stupid and pretty insensitive. they don't do it to gain an athletic advantage; they do it b/c of their adherence to a duty and belief. many would prefer not to. )

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11 hours ago, lu1979 said:

You make the statement that your proposed policy would "benefit the athletes"  without acknowledging that these are grown young men fully capable of deciding what they want to do.  Last I heard there was not a policy that required anyone to extend their college careers past 4 years.  If an athlete (ie K Snyder) wants to go through in 4 years he can.  Without the Pandemic that is probably what Spencer Lee would have done.  If these young men choose to extend their careers (often times getting valuable graduate degrees while doing so) why should that be denied them.  As far "grey shirts" or Mormon missions or any other reason individuals may choose to delay the start of their college education I don't see how you or the NCAA are going to regulate that.

The NCAA has tons of rules that take decision power away from these "grown men" for their benefit.  There shouldn't be any rule allowing/encouraging athletes  to compete past four years of college. Because the current rule allows for it, most  have to do it so as not to be disadvantaged.  Guys who wrestle their true freshman season are the exception rather than the norm, often because there are 5th year seniors clogging  up roster spots.  It's really a disadvantage for these athletes to start their careers after 5 years of college rather than 4 (this is why the ivy league and D3 have this rule), and it's unfair to encourage the practice.  

In terms of Gray shirts and missions-there should be nothing stopping anyone from doing those.  I just think eligibility should be determined post high school graduation.  So if you graduate at 18, you have 4 (or maybe 5) years from that date to compete. So somebody who goes on a 2 year mission would be able to compete in 2 or 3 NCAA championships. Alternatively, you could create a rule whereby the NCAA clock starts for an athlete who is training with an RTC or university, even if that athlete is not enrolled in classes (the ivy league should really have this rule as is).  

 

Another, simple rule, could be to say that NCAA D1 athletes cannot compete over a certain age (maybe 23).  The bottom line is that there are many ways to discourage this practice-I'm not sure what the best way is, but it should be done.   

Edited by Billyhoyle

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10 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The NCAA has tons of rules that take decision power away from these "grown men" for their benefit.  There shouldn't be any rule allowing/encouraging athletes  to compete past four years of college. Because the current rule allows for it, most  have to do it so as not to be disadvantaged.  Guys who wrestle their true freshman season are the exception rather than the norm, often because there are 5th year seniors clogging  up roster spots.  It's really a disadvantage for these athletes to start their careers after 5 years of college rather than 4 (this is why the ivy league and D3 have this rule), and it's unfair to encourage the practice.  

In terms of Gray shirts and missions-there should be nothing stopping anyone from doing those.  I just think eligibility should be determined post high school graduation.  So if you graduate at 18, you have 4 (or maybe 5) years from that date to compete. So somebody who goes on a 2 year mission would be able to compete in 2 or 3 NCAA championships. Alternatively, you could create a rule whereby the NCAA clock starts for an athlete who is training with an RTC or university, even if that athlete is not enrolled in classes (the ivy league should really have this rule as is).  

 

Another, simple rule, could be to say that NCAA D1 athletes cannot compete over a certain age (maybe 23).  The bottom line is that there are many ways to discourage this practice-I'm not sure what the best way is, but it should be done.   

Why is it a disadvantage for guys to start their careers after 5 years of college?  Do you mean international wrestling career?  Or “regular” career?  I think someone pointed out earlier that many non-athletes take 5+ years to finish undergrad too, not to mention many athletes probably take 5 years too since it allows them to space out their courseload and balance it with a D1 wrestling schedule.

I don’t have a problem with allowing redshirts simply from the competition side either.  Many guys do “need” a redshirt in order to successfully transition to D1 wrestling.  But I’ll agree that not everyone “needs one,” honestly I feel like we are seeing more and more true freshmen wrestle and hopefully this free year helped show that many of them are actually ready right away. 

I think your suggestion is basically penalizing the Mormon missions though if they wouldn’t be able to compete in 4 NCAA’s...

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Why is it a disadvantage for guys to start their careers after 5 years of college?  Do you mean international wrestling career?  Or “regular” career?  I think someone pointed out earlier that many non-athletes take 5+ years to finish undergrad too, not to mention many athletes probably take 5 years too since it allows them to space out their courseload and balance it with a D1 wrestling schedule.

I don’t have a problem with allowing redshirts simply from the competition side either.  Many guys do “need” a redshirt in order to successfully transition to D1 wrestling.  But I’ll agree that not everyone “needs one,” honestly I feel like we are seeing more and more true freshmen wrestle and hopefully this free year helped show that many of them are actually ready right away. 

I think your suggestion is basically penalizing the Mormon missions though if they wouldn’t be able to compete in 4 NCAA’s...

If you need a year to transition to D1 wrestling, you get 3 years to compete in the NCAA tournament and can be a backup your first year. Fewer people will need this year though, since there won’t be 5th year seniors.

If you take two years off to do a mission, you just end up with fewer years of NCAA competition. It’s not a right to compete in four NCAA tournaments. Last time I checked, the tournament is held on Friday night/Saturday, which is the (Jewish) sabbath. There aren’t accommodations given there.  Same for when the wrestling season overlaps with Ramadan. For many, religious practice is more important than NCAA competition-and that’s great-but special rules don’t need to be created (under the circumstance I proposed to limit years of competition in NCAA) for those who choose to practice their faith. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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They could make it even simpler by adding an extra limitation: Turn 24 before the start of the semester that a sport begins, then you can't compete. Redshirts and all that are still available, but if you are "gaming the system" (which the COVID-19 year being so unprecedented, I don't really consider it as such) you are still done once you reach the age limit.

Here is how the rule would have affected some of the wrestlers discussed above:

Michael Kemerer - Turned 24 in December. He would have been eligible this season, but not next season.

Jaydin Eierman - Turned 24 in May, so he wouldn't have been eligible to compete this season or beyond.

Daton Fix - Will turn 24 next March, so next season would be his last.

Myles Amine - Turned 24 in December. He would have been eligible this season, but not next season.

Logan Massa - Will turn 24 in May of this year. He would have been eligible this season, but not next season.

Boo Lewallen - Turned 24 in October. He would have been eligible this season, but not next season.

Vito Arujau - Will turn 24 in June of 2022, so next season would be his last.

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3 hours ago, Cruocified said:

They could make it even simpler by adding an extra limitation: Turn 24 before the start of the semester that a sport begins, then you can't compete. Redshirts and all that are still available, but if you are "gaming the system" (which the COVID-19 year being so unprecedented, I don't really consider it as such) you are still done once you reach the age limit.

I agree that COVID isn't gaming the system.  What would you consider to be an example of gaming?

    

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