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Fishbane

7th year wrestlers in 2021-2022 sesaon

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

I agree that COVID isn't gaming the system.  What would you consider to be an example of gaming?

    

I’d argue that the grayshirt/redshirt combo that PSU did with Beard and Joe Lee could be considered “gaming.”  I don’t mind one or the other, but both seems like a bit much.

Some would say Cornell sending most of their recruits to a community college is “gaming” and I’d say it is for the Ivy League, but it’s only because they can’t redshirt.  It’s funny that Koll would say guys should be done in 4 years though...

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On 3/26/2021 at 9:54 PM, 1032004 said:

4-5 years from now the “7th year” won’t be that uncommon.  Iowa is just getting flack for it since they have guys that are seniors now that will be that next year.  In addition to the guys already mentioned:

Phillippi will be a 6th year junior next year

If Beard and Joe Lee use the free year they will be 7th year seniors since they grayshirted + redshirted.  Seth Nevills will too if he takes a regular redshirt.

Basically if any freshman this year uses all 5 years but takes a regular redshirt then either a medical or Olympic redshirt, they’ll be a 7th year senior.  People need to get over it, because it’s not going to be that rare.

How dare you say that about Nittany Lions!

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On 3/27/2021 at 7:19 AM, 1032004 said:

Just thought of it from the Cornell thread but Dean will be a 6th year junior, and Arujua and Mekhi Lewis will be 5th year sophomores.

I'm generally a Koll fan, as a wrestler, as a coach, and in my (limited) contacts with him as a person.  Him talking about athletes needing to get their four years done and get out of school reeks of some of the worst hypocrisy.  I understand exploiting every legal loophole, and agree with it.  However, don't trash the loopholes and then exploit every loophole you can find.

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26 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I’d argue that the grayshirt/redshirt combo that PSU did with Beard and Joe Lee could be considered “gaming.”  I don’t mind one or the other, but both seems like a bit much.

I wouldn't consider that gaming the system.  It's completely within the rules.  Everyone has the 1 year grace period after graduation.  Everyone gets the 1 redshirt.  There is no rule to prevent it nor any indication that the NCAA doesn't intend for it to be used like that.

31 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Some would say Cornell sending most of their recruits to a community college is “gaming” and I’d say it is for the Ivy League, but it’s only because they can’t redshirt.  It’s funny that Koll would say guys should be done in 4 years though...

I wouldn't say future Cornell students training at the FLWC or the OTC for a year is gaming the system either.  It is no different than the greyshirting that Beard or Joe Lee did so long as they are part time students.  I would say that leaving school either to use a redshirt for an injury (Darmstadt), the Olympics (Yianni, Vito, Dean), or get a regular deferred year could be seen as gaming since it is using a loophole to circumvent Ivy rules.

I would say Cary Kolat famously intentionally failing 8th grade to gain a year on his peers to be gaming the system. 

Micic's use of his first Olympic redshirt in 2016 could be considered gaming.  I don't recall the timing but I beleive he was injured that year and didn't compete at the trials.  I don't think not wreslting at the trials is a problem.  Someone could qualify for an olympic redshirt and but fail to qualify for the trials that year.  Also I think someone could be intending to make a run at the olympics and get injured during this redshirt year.  However if Micic was injured before that the 2015-2016 academic year and had no intention of trying to make an Olympic team then it would be an unintended use of the rule and gaming.  Even if he was injured before that year I can't really blame him for using it.  It was available to him and the NCAA wasn't really granting 6th year waives back then.

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44 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

 

I wouldn't consider that gaming the system.  It's completely within the rules.  Everyone has the 1 year grace period after graduation.  Everyone gets the 1 redshirt.  There is no rule to prevent it nor any indication that the NCAA doesn't intend for it to be used like that.

I wouldn't say future Cornell students training at the FLWC or the OTC for a year is gaming the system either.  It is no different than the greyshirting that Beard or Joe Lee did so long as they are part time students.  I would say that leaving school either to use a redshirt for an injury (Darmstadt), the Olympics (Yianni, Vito, Dean), or get a regular deferred year could be seen as gaming since it is using a loophole to circumvent Ivy rules.

I would say Cary Kolat famously intentionally failing 8th grade to gain a year on his peers to be gaming the system. 

Micic's use of his first Olympic redshirt in 2016 could be considered gaming.  I don't recall the timing but I beleive he was injured that year and didn't compete at the trials.  I don't think not wreslting at the trials is a problem.  Someone could qualify for an olympic redshirt and but fail to qualify for the trials that year.  Also I think someone could be intending to make a run at the olympics and get injured during this redshirt year.  However if Micic was injured before that the 2015-2016 academic year and had no intention of trying to make an Olympic team then it would be an unintended use of the rule and gaming.  Even if he was injured before that year I can't really blame him for using it.  It was available to him and the NCAA wasn't really granting 6th year waives back then.

The thing with the Cornell grayshirt is that it evens the playing field with PSU/Iowa, but it goes against everything the Ivy League stands for on paper (education being the priority over athletics).  He's basically having his athletes take classes at a community college rather than CU.  Even if it's the Ag school, it is still a significantly better education than the local CC.  I didn't realize he was having his guys drop out of college for semesters that they are olympic redshirting or hurt-is that really true?  So Yianni/Max Dean/Vito are going to take 6 years to get their degrees?  I find this really difficult to believe, since I think Koll is one of the "good guys" in the sport. The guys graduating in 6 years at Iowa, PSU, etc are taking university classes during the redshirt and I think even during the olympic redshirt years.....It would be pretty awful if these athletes are doing nothing but training and getting nothing out of it (no credit, no money, etc), and in the process are having their education interrupted.  

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Yup, they do leave school  for a semester or whole years.  That is what is happening this year for many on the Cornell squad.  If they didn’t they would not be able to compete anywhere for any reason due to the Covid contract students have signed (I think I have that right).  Student decision.  Note, word is that some decided to dip and some decided to stay in school (e.g. Darmstadt).
 

But even during regular years — I have generally seen it for injuries.  Clock keeps ticking at school.  If want to compete for four seasons at NCAAs, have to leave for second semester.   
 

Not a fan of it all.  But I get why the guys sometimes do this given no easy ‘injury redshirt’  option.  Koll explains this is fully a student and parent decision.  He can’t require one path or another.  I have no idea what the discussions entail.

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2 hours ago, nom said:

Yup, they do leave school  for a semester or whole years.  That is what is happening this year for many on the Cornell squad.  If they didn’t they would not be able to compete anywhere for any reason due to the Covid contract students have signed (I think I have that right).  Student decision.  Note, word is that some decided to dip and some decided to stay in school (e.g. Darmstadt).
 

But even during regular years — I have generally seen it for injuries.  Clock keeps ticking at school.  If want to compete for four seasons at NCAAs, have to leave for second semester.   
 

Not a fan of it all.  But I get why the guys sometimes do this given no easy ‘injury redshirt’  option.  Koll explains this is fully a student and parent decision.  He can’t require one path or another.  I have no idea what the discussions entail.

So you’re telling me that Max Dean, who graduated high school in 2016, is still only a sophomore in college academically and will be a junior next year? Is that for real? 

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What is it that everyone is upset about??  Why don't people like it that kids are in school for up to 7 years?  You don't like that they are still receiving more education...should there be a limit on how long people get educated or does learning need to stop after 4 years too?  Is it because they are still competing in a D1 sport...at the highest collegiate level...is there seriously a problem with someone being able to do that for that long?  Does the hate for someone much "older" potentially competing against an 18 year old ADULT outweigh all the good the person is doing for themselves?  

I am not talking about the hypocrisy that Koll clearly was demonstrating in what he said, nor am I talking about whether I like it or not, but rather trying to truly understand that great dislike about a kid, staying in school getting educated, competing at the highest collegiate level of wrestling, balancing things 99% most people wouldn't be able to, all the while entertaining us overweight adults who can barely juggle going to the bathroom and getting the dishes done (only speaking for myself).

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On 3/25/2021 at 10:54 PM, Billyhoyle said:

Not everyone can make the starting lineup.  Injuries can happen. There's no shame in missing a year because you are a backup or are hurt-we don't need "redshirt" years to make up for this.  You should get 4 years in college, and however many NCAAs you can wrestle in those four years, that's what you do. The Ivy league and D3 have instituted this rule and it works great for the teams that follow it. Also, if you are at an RTC but not registered at the school, that should count as a year of eligibility.  The incentive should not be on the coaches to take up 5 to 6 years of these athletes' lives to score team points at NCAAs.  

There are two groups of NCAA D1 athletes: Those who want to make a career out of wrestling and those who want to compete while focusing mainly on their education.  For the former, it is best that they get to freestyle/greco ASAP, since there is no actual professional folkstyle.  For the latter, being in college for extra years delays their careers.

The current system of grayshirts/redshirts is a completely negative process, where coaches are forced to do it because other coaches do it as well.  If everyone got 4 years only, it would benefit the athletes and there would be no negative for the coaches.

Some of those at a particular RTC have not yet been admitted to said school, but you think they should lose a year of eligibility? 

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11 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The thing with the Cornell grayshirt is that it evens the playing field with PSU/Iowa, but it goes against everything the Ivy League stands for on paper (education being the priority over athletics).  He's basically having his athletes take classes at a community college rather than CU.  Even if it's the Ag school, it is still a significantly better education than the local CC.  I didn't realize he was having his guys drop out of college for semesters that they are olympic redshirting or hurt-is that really true?  So Yianni/Max Dean/Vito are going to take 6 years to get their degrees?  I find this really difficult to believe, since I think Koll is one of the "good guys" in the sport. The guys graduating in 6 years at Iowa, PSU, etc are taking university classes during the redshirt and I think even during the olympic redshirt years.....It would be pretty awful if these athletes are doing nothing but training and getting nothing out of it (no credit, no money, etc), and in the process are having their education interrupted.  

This isn't just a Cornell thing.  Most if not all of the Ivy league schools do it.  At Penn Matt Valenti took a year off so he could redshirt when he injured his shoulder.  Matt Kolodzik greyshirted before enrolling at Princeton and then took a semester off in 2019-2020 with an eye to take an Olympic redshirt only to come back second semester when it was apparent Princeton could win an Ivy League title for the first time in years with so many Cornell wrestlers sitting out.  

Completing undergraduate studies in 5 years is not uncommon for regular students at many universities.  Some students change majors during their studies and require more time to complete coursework in the new major.  Some schools require co-ops, internships, or work experience to graduate in addition to 4 years of traditional coursework.  Now that isn't part of the regular Ivy experience but it can be.  Taking time off from school at an Ivy can make it part of the experience.  Max Meltzer graduated high school in 2002 and took 5 years to complete his wrestling career at Harvard.  He took a year off and did something like this.  His dad hired Teague Moore to be his personal coach during that period.  Moore spoke about it on the Matt Boss podcast a couple years ago.

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On 3/25/2021 at 10:48 PM, Fishbane said:

People have added Anthony Valencia, Korbin Meyers, and Logan Massa who were all high school class of 2015.  Myers and Valencia used a regular redshirt then an injury year/6th year waiver along with the COVID year to open the opportunity for a 7th year.  Massa was a regular redshirt, olympic redshirt, and a COVID year.  Not sure on their status for next season.

Here are some others that could come back for a 7th or 8th year.

How about a probable seven years, and a possible eight years for Vito?

Class of 2017:  2017-18 greyshirt, 2018-19 freshman, 2019-20 ORS, 2020-21 COVID, (predicted) 2021-22 sophomore, 2022-23 junior, (possible) 2023-24 ORS, 2024-25 senior

(edit)
He will have to take that last year somewhere other than Cornell or another Ivy school, of course.

Edited by klehner

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On 3/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Husker_Du said:

Darmstadt is up there too.

My feelings on this (and several other rules that are gamed, like out of bounds stalling)

are 'don't hate the athlete, hate the rules'.

if the rules are screwed up, they need to fix them. don't blame guys for taking advantage of what's allowed by the rules.

(also complaining about mormon missions is effing stupid and pretty insensitive. they don't do it to gain an athletic advantage; they do it b/c of their adherence to a duty and belief. many would prefer not to. )

Darmstadt is giving up a year of eligibility (his third) by being enrolled in school this year.  So, greyshirt/freshman/injured/sophomore/junior (no competition)/senior, with only three years of college competition.  Heck, if he doesn't get a medical waiver for his injured sophomore year (I believe he was enrolled that year, too), he's done competing as of now.

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15 minutes ago, klehner said:

Some of those at a particular RTC have not yet been admitted to said school, but you think they should lose a year of eligibility? 

Under the current rules, they should get 3 years of eligibility at their Ivy League school and then have to transfer for the fourth. In an ideal situation, there would be no redshirting at all and the practice of grayshirting would result in a lost year of eligibility. 

15 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

This isn't just a Cornell thing.  Most if not all of the Ivy league schools do it.  At Penn Matt Valenti took a year off so he could redshirt when he injured his shoulder.  Matt Kolodzik greyshirted before enrolling at Princeton and then took a semester off in 2019-2020 with an eye to take an Olympic redshirt only to come back second semester when it was apparent Princeton could win an Ivy League title for the first time in years with so many Cornell wrestlers sitting out.  

Completing undergraduate studies in 5 years is not uncommon for regular students at many universities.  Some students change majors during their studies and require more time to complete coursework in the new major.  Some schools require co-ops, internships, or work experience to graduate in addition to 4 years of traditional coursework.  Now that isn't part of the regular Ivy experience but it can be.  Taking time off from school at an Ivy can make it part of the experience.  Max Meltzer graduated high school in 2002 and took 5 years to complete his wrestling career at Harvard.  He took a year off and did something like this.  His dad hired Teague Moore to be his personal coach during that period.  Moore spoke about it on the Matt Boss podcast a couple years ago.

What they did is not good-but an individual taking an occasional year off is not the end of the world. Ideally the Ivy League should strongly discourage that practice to encourage their athletes to stay enrolled. Cornell institutional using the practice to the point where you have 6th year juniors work 2 years of college is just a shame though. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, klehner said:

Darmstadt is giving up a year of eligibility (his third) by being enrolled in school this year.  So, greyshirt/freshman/injured/sophomore/junior (no competition)/senior, with only three years of college competition.  Heck, if he doesn't get a medical waiver for his injured sophomore year (I believe he was enrolled that year, too), he's done competing as of now.

Maybe he'll just move on to wrestle elsewhere...

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19 hours ago, Cruocified said:

They could make it even simpler by adding an extra limitation: Turn 24 before the start of the semester that a sport begins, then you can't compete. Redshirts and all that are still available, but if you are "gaming the system" (which the COVID-19 year being so unprecedented, I don't really consider it as such) you are still done once you reach the age limit.

Vito Arujau - Will turn 24 in June of 2022, so next season would be his last.

So, he loses two years of eligibility because 1) he's good enough to qualify for an ORS, and 2) his conference cancelled a season?

Seems fair.

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25 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

So you’re telling me that Max Dean, who graduated high school in 2016, is still only a sophomore in college academically and will be a junior next year? Is that for real? 

Keep in mind he only started undergraduate studies full time in 2017.  Also keep in mind that many non-athlete undergraduates took a break from their studies during the COVID-19 pandemic.  Many places only had virtual classes and some students prefer to take in-person classes. 

It's also possible he is a double major or something that would require more coursework that a typical undergraduate.  Finally it is possible that he is academically a junior or senior.  Sometimes wrestlers who take 5 years at an Ivy will only attend 2nd semester their last year so they can compete at NCAAs.  He might be a senior academically and have 1 year or 2 semesters of coursework to complete. This would allow him to take the fall semster off next year and the year after and take classes/compete spring semester so he can wrestle at NCAAs.

3 minutes ago, klehner said:

Darmstadt is giving up a year of eligibility (his third) by being enrolled in school this year.  So, greyshirt/freshman/injured/sophomore/junior (no competition)/senior, with only three years of college competition.  Heck, if he doesn't get a medical waiver for his injured sophomore year (I believe he was enrolled that year, too), he's done competing as of now.

He wouldn't need a medical waiver for his sophomore year.  As far as the NCAA is concerned he had a redshirt year to burn unless he was enrolled fulltime somewhere during his greyshirt year.  The medical waiver is for when a wrestler competed that season and then was injured.  An example of this would be Logan Stieber his true freshman season.  He wrestled maybe two events then got injured in Las Vegas and missed the rest of the season.  He had never used a redshirt but because he competed attached that season he needed an medical waiver to use it.  Darmstadt didn't compete in 2018-2019 so he woudn't need a medical waiver to use it even if he was enrolled in classes.  

He is only giving up a year wrestling at an Ivy by being enrolled this year.  According to the NCAA he still has two years.  If he only took classes this year and not duing the injury year he has one year of undergraduate work at Cornell left and can use one year there and then transfer.  If he took classes both this year and the injury year then he might graduate this year.  If so he could still wrestle next year at Cornell as a graduate student under the new 1 year exeption the Ivy League adopted to deal with COVID.  To use both years at Cornell he would have to be creative and only take classes second semester or something like that for two years or the Ivy would have to expand their graduate student exception.  Or he could just transfer for grad school.

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12 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The thing with the Cornell grayshirt is that it evens the playing field with PSU/Iowa, but it goes against everything the Ivy League stands for on paper (education being the priority over athletics).  He's basically having his athletes take classes at a community college rather than CU.  Even if it's the Ag school, it is still a significantly better education than the local CC.  I didn't realize he was having his guys drop out of college for semesters that they are olympic redshirting or hurt-is that really true?  So Yianni/Max Dean/Vito are going to take 6 years to get their degrees?  I find this really difficult to believe, since I think Koll is one of the "good guys" in the sport. The guys graduating in 6 years at Iowa, PSU, etc are taking university classes during the redshirt and I think even during the olympic redshirt years.....It would be pretty awful if these athletes are doing nothing but training and getting nothing out of it (no credit, no money, etc), and in the process are having their education interrupted.  

Guys at the RTC can take classes at Cornell, up to less than 12 credits per semester.  Most don't because of the cost, but some do; those who don't take TCCC courses that can be applied to their Cornell degree (if they get accepted and actually enroll).  Koll doesn't "have" anyone do anything:  it is a decision made by the wrestler and his family.

I have not seen evidence that Darmstadt dropped out of Cornell when he was injured.  He likely could get a medical waiver to allow him to compete for a fifth school year if he hasn't graduated yet, so he might not have needed to do that.  He has lost a year of eligibility this year by staying in school.  He's a really bright guy (honors, AP, etc.), so despite his wrestling talent he may just want to get on with life.

The Ivy League does not recognize an Olympic Red Shirt (or any color/type of "shirt"), so if you want to maintain a year of eligibility, you cannot enroll in school that year.  You get five years to complete your four years of eligibility before graduating, since the Ivy League also doesn't recognize "fifth year seniors".  "Pretty awful"?  Pretty sure that guys like Yianni, Vito, and Max chose their paths, within the rules.

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59 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

So you’re telling me that Max Dean, who graduated high school in 2016, is still only a sophomore in college academically and will be a junior next year? Is that for real? 

What's so hard to understand?  He took a gap year ("grey shirt"), wrestled two seasons, was good enough to "earn" an ORS that the Ivy League doesn't recognize, so didn't enroll the third year, lost a year to COVID (and decided not to enroll so as to preserve, in line with Ivy rules, a year of eligibility), and will return for his third year of college as a junior with two years of eligibility.

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31 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Under the current rules, they should get 3 years of eligibility at their Ivy League school and then have to transfer for the fourth. In an ideal situation, there would be no redshirting at all and the practice of grayshirting would result in a lost year of eligibility. 

If they haven't even been accepted at Cornell yet, what say does the Ivy League have in their eligibility if/when they do enroll?  If someone takes a gap year before enrolling, what say does the Ivy League have in their eligibility?  Is there some list of do's/don'ts against which they check to see if the guy loses eligibility?

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14 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

He wouldn't need a medical waiver for his sophomore year.  As far as the NCAA is concerned he had a redshirt year to burn unless he was enrolled fulltime somewhere during his greyshirt year.  The medical waiver is for when a wrestler competed that season and then was injured.  An example of this would be Logan Stieber his true freshman season.  He wrestled maybe two events then got injured in Las Vegas and missed the rest of the season.  He had never used a redshirt but because he competed attached that season he needed an medical waiver to use it.  Darmstadt didn't compete in 2018-2019 so he woudn't need a medical waiver to use it even if he was enrolled in classes.  

He is only giving up a year wrestling at an Ivy by being enrolled this year.  According to the NCAA he still has two years.  If he only took classes this year and not duing the injury year he has one year of undergraduate work at Cornell left and can use one year there and then transfer.  If he took classes both this year and the injury year then he might graduate this year.  If so he could still wrestle next year at Cornell as a graduate student under the new 1 year exeption the Ivy League adopted to deal with COVID.  To use both years at Cornell he would have to be creative and only take classes second semester or something like that for two years or the Ivy would have to expand their graduate student exception.  Or he could just transfer for grad school.

Ivy League rules take precedence over what the NCAA allows.  If you are enrolled in school for a given semester but cannot compete due to injury, you lose eligibility for that semester unless you apply for and receive a medical waiver *from the Ivy League*.  He's expected to use his eligibility within five years.  Every semester in school counts towards that five years, regardless of your competition status.  Don't want to lose eligibility?  Don't enroll, but remember you only have a five year window in which to use your eligibility, without a hardship waiver *from the Ivy League*.

Here's a link to Penn's policy:  https://www.nmnathletics.com/pdf8/779380.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=1700. It discusses the process for a medical waiver.

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17 minutes ago, klehner said:

If they haven't even been accepted at Cornell yet, what say does the Ivy League have in their eligibility if/when they do enroll?  If someone takes a gap year before enrolling, what say does the Ivy League have in their eligibility?  Is there some list of do's/don'ts against which they check to see if the guy loses eligibility?

Well, since they are obviously training at the RTC as a means to get around the redshirt rule, the Ivy league should take away a year of eligibility. The rule can be as simple as saying you lose a year of eligibility at an Ivy if you train at an Ivy affiliated RTC prior to matriculation. 

Would it really be the end of the world if Cornell went back to running their program like the other ivies? If they want to compete on an even playing field with PSU/Iowa, then there's no need to be in the Ivy League.

20 minutes ago, klehner said:

What's so hard to understand?  He took a gap year ("grey shirt"), wrestled two seasons, was good enough to "earn" an ORS that the Ivy League doesn't recognize, so didn't enroll the third year, lost a year to COVID (and decided not to enroll so as to preserve, in line with Ivy rules, a year of eligibility), and will return for his third year of college as a junior with two years of eligibility.

 

24 minutes ago, klehner said:

Guys at the RTC can take classes at Cornell, up to less than 12 credits per semester.  Most don't because of the cost, but some do; those who don't take TCCC courses that can be applied to their Cornell degree (if they get accepted and actually enroll).  Koll doesn't "have" anyone do anything:  it is a decision made by the wrestler and his family.

I have not seen evidence that Darmstadt dropped out of Cornell when he was injured.  He likely could get a medical waiver to allow him to compete for a fifth school year if he hasn't graduated yet, so he might not have needed to do that.  He has lost a year of eligibility this year by staying in school.  He's a really bright guy (honors, AP, etc.), so despite his wrestling talent he may just want to get on with life.

The Ivy League does not recognize an Olympic Red Shirt (or any color/type of "shirt"), so if you want to maintain a year of eligibility, you cannot enroll in school that year.  You get five years to complete your four years of eligibility before graduating, since the Ivy League also doesn't recognize "fifth year seniors".  "Pretty awful"?  Pretty sure that guys like Yianni, Vito, and Max chose their paths, within the rules.

Right, but the Ivy League is about putting education before athletics.  Can't  you admit that it's bad that these guys have been out of high school for five years now with only two years towards a degree? If they had gone to Northwestern or Duke, they would have completed a masters degree at this point. You can blame the conference for not allowing redshirts if you want-but the current situation is not good. What kind of college experience is it to take random years off in the middle of your education where you drop out because of an olympic redshirt, injury, etc? What Cornell is doing is much worse than if the Ivy simply allowed them to redshirt/medical redshirt/olympic redshirt, since at least then the athletes would be enrolled in classes.  Are the athletes at Harvard, Penn, and Columbia doing this too? 

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2 minutes ago, klehner said:

Ivy League rules take precedence over what the NCAA allows.  If you are enrolled in school for a given semester but cannot compete due to injury, you lose eligibility for that semester unless you apply for and receive a medical waiver *from the Ivy League*.  He's expected to use his eligibility within five years.  Every semester in school counts towards that five years, regardless of your competition status.  Don't want to lose eligibility?  Don't enroll, but remember you only have a five year window in which to use your eligibility, without a hardship waiver *from the Ivy League*.

Here's a link to Penn's policy:  https://www.nmnathletics.com/pdf8/779380.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=1700. It discusses the process for a medical waiver.

He still wouldn't necessarilly be done at Cornell even if he was enrolled full time during both the injury year and this year and doens't get an Ivy League medical waiver.  He should graduate this year and the Ivy league is allowing 2020-2021 senior athletes a 1 year waiver to compete as full time gradute students next season.  He could enroll as a grad stident next year and make use of that excaption.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/2/12/ivy-league-grad-students-waiver/

Alternatively if he was enrolled for only one semester both during the injury year and this year could he take classes/compete spring semster next year and the year after without an ivy medical waiver and get two more NCAA tournaments?  Or would such a scheme be afoul of Ivy rules since spring semester 2023 would be 6 years after he first enrolled? 

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1 hour ago, klehner said:

within the rules.

The only thing that matters.

Until any rules are changed, they are acting in accordance.

Who TF is anyone to say what these wrestlers and schools should be doing other than the athlete, their parents/guardians, coaches and admin?

Get off your high-horses.

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36 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Well, since they are obviously training at the RTC as a means to get around the redshirt rule, the Ivy league should take away a year of eligibility. The rule can be as simple as saying you lose a year of eligibility at an Ivy if you train at an Ivy affiliated RTC prior to matriculation. 

Would it really be the end of the world if Cornell went back to running their program like the other ivies? If they want to compete on an even playing field with PSU/Iowa, then there's no need to be in the Ivy League.

 

Right, but the Ivy League is about putting education before athletics.  Can't  you admit that it's bad that these guys have been out of high school for five years now with only two years towards a degree? If they had gone to Northwestern or Duke, they would have completed a masters degree at this point. You can blame the conference for not allowing redshirts if you want-but the current situation is not good. What kind of college experience is it to take random years off in the middle of your education where you drop out because of an olympic redshirt, injury, etc? What Cornell is doing is much worse than if the Ivy simply allowed them to redshirt/medical redshirt/olympic redshirt, since at least then the athletes would be enrolled in classes.  Are the athletes at Harvard, Penn, and Columbia doing this too? 

As pointed out earlier in this thread or in another similar thread, yes other Ivy League programs do this specifically in regards to wrestling.  Also, perhaps not in wrestling (to my knowledge), but certainly in other sports that they spend more money on Harvard are notorious for bending admissions rules and other academic rules for gifted athletes.

It's bizarre to me that you think the Ivy League should be able to mandate what students do before they even enroll.  Gap years are a pretty normal occurrence for students attending academically elite universities.  Why should Cornell or any other Ivy get to dictate whether that gap year is spent on a sheep farm, or writing a novel, or developing elite wrestling skills?  People also take time off from school for a variety of reasons, why should the school get to dictate what reasons are acceptable or not?  

 

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On 3/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Husker_Du said:

Darmstadt is up there too.

My feelings on this (and several other rules that are gamed, like out of bounds stalling)

are 'don't hate the athlete, hate the rules'.

if the rules are screwed up, they need to fix them. don't blame guys for taking advantage of what's allowed by the rules.

(also complaining about mormon missions is effing stupid and pretty insensitive. they don't do it to gain an athletic advantage; they do it b/c of their adherence to a duty and belief. many would prefer not to. )

I agree with Willie, Cael abandoned his duty and belief.

Kidding! ;)

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