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Fishbane

7th year wrestlers in 2021-2022 sesaon

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

Well, since they are obviously training at the RTC as a means to get around the redshirt rule, the Ivy league should take away a year of eligibility. The rule can be as simple as saying you lose a year of eligibility at an Ivy if you train at an Ivy affiliated RTC prior to matriculation. 

Would it really be the end of the world if Cornell went back to running their program like the other ivies? If they want to compete on an even playing field with PSU/Iowa, then there's no need to be in the Ivy League.

 

Right, but the Ivy League is about putting education before athletics.  Can't  you admit that it's bad that these guys have been out of high school for five years now with only two years towards a degree? If they had gone to Northwestern or Duke, they would have completed a masters degree at this point. You can blame the conference for not allowing redshirts if you want-but the current situation is not good. What kind of college experience is it to take random years off in the middle of your education where you drop out because of an olympic redshirt, injury, etc? What Cornell is doing is much worse than if the Ivy simply allowed them to redshirt/medical redshirt/olympic redshirt, since at least then the athletes would be enrolled in classes.  Are the athletes at Harvard, Penn, and Columbia doing this too? 

"Obviously," right.  Let me say this again:  the Ivy League has *no* say over what someone does prior to matriculating at a member institution. 

You do understand that a number of Ivy League members also have "affiliated" RTCs?  Seems like the Ivy League and members have no issue with these RTCs, else they'd have done something about them before everyone joined one.  Penn has one (https://pennsylvaniartc.org/).  Princeton has one, jointly with Rutgers (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2016/October/10/Princeton-and-Rutgers-combine-to-create-New-Jersey-RTC).  Harvard and Brown jointly have one (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2019/December/16/Eierman-to-New-England-RTC).  Columbia has one (http://www.nycrtc.org/About Us).  That leaves, uh, nobody.  Did you really not know this?

Cornell is not "doing" anything to these kids.  The decisions belong to them and their parents.  This provides options. Not everyone at Spartan Combat RTC has been accepted yet at Cornell; this gives some of them an opportunity to get some credits, improve their test scores, etc.  You'd have them pay an eligibility year penalty, right?

And you would remove the ability to get four years of Cornell competition with a greyshirt/redshirt year while only paying for four years.  Not everyone wants to pay five years of Cornell tuition, you know?  So, they get to match the redshirt year of the non-Ivy schools in this manner.  By the way, Northwestern and Duke give athletic scholarships, which of course the Ivy League does not.

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

He still wouldn't necessarilly be done at Cornell even if he was enrolled full time during both the injury year and this year and doens't get an Ivy League medical waiver.  He should graduate this year and the Ivy league is allowing 2020-2021 senior athletes a 1 year waiver to compete as full time gradute students next season.  He could enroll as a grad stident next year and make use of that excaption.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/2/12/ivy-league-grad-students-waiver/

Alternatively if he was enrolled for only one semester both during the injury year and this year could he take classes/compete spring semster next year and the year after without an ivy medical waiver and get two more NCAA tournaments?  Or would such a scheme be afoul of Ivy rules since spring semester 2023 would be 6 years after he first enrolled? 

He's not a senior this year (he's listed as a junior), so that doesn't apply to him.  Without the hardship waiver, next year is his last.  It's not even clear if he gets next year, as you point out, due to too many years having passed.  Probably all this helps to explain why he, as a NCAA title contender, is enrolled in school this year.

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On 3/28/2021 at 9:21 PM, Fishbane said:

 

I wouldn't consider that gaming the system.  It's completely within the rules.  Everyone has the 1 year grace period after graduation.  Everyone gets the 1 redshirt.  There is no rule to prevent it nor any indication that the NCAA doesn't intend for it to be used like that.

I wouldn't say future Cornell students training at the FLWC or the OTC for a year is gaming the system either.  It is no different than the greyshirting that Beard or Joe Lee did so long as they are part time students.  I would say that leaving school either to use a redshirt for an injury (Darmstadt), the Olympics (Yianni, Vito, Dean), or get a regular deferred year could be seen as gaming since it is using a loophole to circumvent Ivy rules.

I never said it wasn't within the rules.  I just think it can be considered "gaming the system."

I'm pretty sure the NCAA doesn't "intend" for guys not yet enrolled at the university that's very closely attached to the RTC (yet somehow not officially affiliated despite official university coaches also being the official coaches of the RTC) to live in town and train pretty much full-time at the RTC.

I think it's more of an RTC issue honestly.   Put more restrictions on what the RTC's can do with high school - college aged kids and I think the grayshirting gets greatly diminished.

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9 hours ago, klehner said:

"Obviously," right.  Let me say this again:  the Ivy League has *no* say over what someone does prior to matriculating at a member institution. 

You do understand that a number of Ivy League members also have "affiliated" RTCs?  Seems like the Ivy League and members have no issue with these RTCs, else they'd have done something about them before everyone joined one.  Penn has one (https://pennsylvaniartc.org/).  Princeton has one, jointly with Rutgers (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2016/October/10/Princeton-and-Rutgers-combine-to-create-New-Jersey-RTC).  Harvard and Brown jointly have one (https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2019/December/16/Eierman-to-New-England-RTC).  Columbia has one (http://www.nycrtc.org/About Us).  That leaves, uh, nobody.  Did you really not know this?

Cornell is not "doing" anything to these kids.  The decisions belong to them and their parents.  This provides options. Not everyone at Spartan Combat RTC has been accepted yet at Cornell; this gives some of them an opportunity to get some credits, improve their test scores, etc.  You'd have them pay an eligibility year penalty, right?

And you would remove the ability to get four years of Cornell competition with a greyshirt/redshirt year while only paying for four years.  Not everyone wants to pay five years of Cornell tuition, you know?  So, they get to match the redshirt year of the non-Ivy schools in this manner.  By the way, Northwestern and Duke give athletic scholarships, which of course the Ivy League does not.

All Ivies have kids take years off school for injuries and such.   But to my knowledge Cornell is the only one that sends most of their recruiting classes to community college first.   You really don't think Koll is trying to sell the kids on doing that?   Obviously he's not "forcing" them to do it, and yeah it makes sense if they want to get some credits out of the way while also training as a traditional redshirt would.     

But as I said in my prior post I think it's more of an RTC issue.   If the grayshirts weren't allowed to train at the RTC (or there was at least some sort of restriction) then I think it's a lot tougher sell.

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I never said it wasn't within the rules.  I just think it can be considered "gaming the system."

I'm pretty sure the NCAA doesn't "intend" for guys not yet enrolled at the university that's very closely attached to the RTC (yet somehow not officially affiliated despite official university coaches also being the official coaches of the RTC) to live in town and train pretty much full-time at the RTC.

I think it's more of an RTC issue honestly.   Put more restrictions on what the RTC's can do with high school - college aged kids and I think the grayshirting gets greatly diminished.

Do you think this would help wrestling ? 

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7 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Do you think this would help wrestling ? 

I think it would “help” NCAA wrestling.  I don’t know what exact restrictions to put in, but while I know RTC’s are good for the US’s international wrestling, I think there has to be way to maintain that while removing or at least reducing the gray area that they create for NCAA wrestling.

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12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I never said it wasn't within the rules.  I just think it can be considered "gaming the system."

I'm pretty sure the NCAA doesn't "intend" for guys not yet enrolled at the university that's very closely attached to the RTC (yet somehow not officially affiliated despite official university coaches also being the official coaches of the RTC) to live in town and train pretty much full-time at the RTC.

I think it's more of an RTC issue honestly.   Put more restrictions on what the RTC's can do with high school - college aged kids and I think the grayshirting gets greatly diminished.

I agree that the larger issue here is one with RTCs.  Someone can wrestle at an RTC in high school, in college, and after college.  I don't see making use of the 1 year grace period to train at an RTC as a loophole, gaming, or unintended.  I think RTCs are a huge issue for competiive balance, but greyshirting is not the biggest of them.    

Take some like Yianni trained who trained at FLWC in high school.  If he wanted to take advantage of the 1 year grace period to train freestyle full time and intended to enroll at Cornell the following year (but maybe hasn't yet applied and definitely hasn't signed a letter of intent) should he not be allowed to do that at the RTC? Should he lose a year of eligibilty if he sbsequently applies and enrolls at Cornell?    

Joe Lee moving to State College between high school and college to train at the NLWC full time between high school and college then taking a regular redshirt after enrolling and starting classes is gaming the system.  What about his brother Nick who moved to State College for his senior year of high school, completed high school through schooling whilst training at the NLWC, then enrolled at Penn State the next year and wrestled as a true freshman?   There was no greyshirt involved.  What about Aaron Brooks who went to the OTC for his gap year and then intended to redshirt his 1st year at Penn State before pulling the shirt mid year?  Would it be gaming if he actually redshirted that year?  Or not gaming because he trained at the OTC and not the NLWC during the gap year?

Having the NLWC in State College is a huge advantage for Penn State.  There are a bunch of world medalists coaching there and others training full time.  It attacts top high school wrestlers to practice there - some even move halfway accross the country to practice there (Nick Lee).  It also attracts the top college wrestlers to practice there like the PSU team, but beyond that too.  In an interview after their NCAA finals match Zain talked about wrestling freestyle in the offseason with Ronnie Perry in the PSU room the year before.  It also attracts the top post college wrestlers like Kyle Sndyer and Thomas GIlman.  It even attracts top international wrestlers like Bekzod, Frankling Gomez, and Jaime Espinal.  

I really don't know how you negate the advantage of the local RTC.  I don't think limiting high scool or college age participation is a good thing at least for USAW.  The RTC system probably deserves some of the blame for the US resurgence in the internatinal styles since 2010's nadir.  You can restrict them from sharing facilities or coaches with the colleges, but the biggest RTCs with the most money would just move adjacent to campus and pay for fulltime coaches.  Arguably that would hurt the smaller RTCs more than ones like NLWC that could afford an off campus facility and offer a competive salary to attract coaches.

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1 minute ago, Fishbane said:

I agree that the larger issue here is one with RTCs.........

.........I really don't know how you negate the advantage of the local RTC. 

Any top wrestling school can have their own RTC. Iowa has HWC. Ohio State has their own wrestling club. Even Ivy's have wrestling clubs. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Any top wrestling school can have their own RTC. Iowa has HWC. Ohio State has their own wrestling club. Even Ivy's have wrestling clubs. 

That is true.  But with RTCs the school that can raise the most money can also spend it more effectively.  There is a natural limit to the money a college program can use within the rules.  The program with the most money can get a shiny new wrestling facility and pay big salaries to attract top coaches.  However with limits of 4 coaches and 9.9 scholarships extra money can only go so far.  What do you do with more money once you have 4 great coaches, 9.9 fully funded scholarships and a brand new facility?  What good is it? You might have an unlimited travel budget, unlimited recruiting budget, hire support positions like director of wrestling operations and recruiting director, but all that only moves the needle so much.

With a club or RTC then you can direct boosters to contribute there.  The RTC/Club can use those monies more effectively.  The RTC can hire more coaches.  The club can pay resident athletes and attract the best freestyle/greco competitors to wrestle local to your school.  This effectively expands the coaching staff in the offseason and give university athletes training partners they wouldn't normally be able to access. This also gives the RTC control of the best opportunities to pursue the sport after graduation - resident athletes at the NLWC.  The NLWC has 15 athletes qualiefed for the Olympic trials and 4 of them were given top seed. 

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

I agree that the larger issue here is one with RTCs.  Someone can wrestle at an RTC in high school, in college, and after college.  I don't see making use of the 1 year grace period to train at an RTC as a loophole, gaming, or unintended.  I think RTCs are a huge issue for competiive balance, but greyshirting is not the biggest of them.    

Take some like Yianni trained who trained at FLWC in high school.  If he wanted to take advantage of the 1 year grace period to train freestyle full time and intended to enroll at Cornell the following year (but maybe hasn't yet applied and definitely hasn't signed a letter of intent) should he not be allowed to do that at the RTC? Should he lose a year of eligibilty if he sbsequently applies and enrolls at Cornell?    

Joe Lee moving to State College between high school and college to train at the NLWC full time between high school and college then taking a regular redshirt after enrolling and starting classes is gaming the system.  What about his brother Nick who moved to State College for his senior year of high school, completed high school through schooling whilst training at the NLWC, then enrolled at Penn State the next year and wrestled as a true freshman?   There was no greyshirt involved.  What about Aaron Brooks who went to the OTC for his gap year and then intended to redshirt his 1st year at Penn State before pulling the shirt mid year?  Would it be gaming if he actually redshirted that year?  Or not gaming because he trained at the OTC and not the NLWC during the gap year?

Having the NLWC in State College is a huge advantage for Penn State.  There are a bunch of world medalists coaching there and others training full time.  It attacts top high school wrestlers to practice there - some even move halfway accross the country to practice there (Nick Lee).  It also attracts the top college wrestlers to practice there like the PSU team, but beyond that too.  In an interview after their NCAA finals match Zain talked about wrestling freestyle in the offseason with Ronnie Perry in the PSU room the year before.  It also attracts the top post college wrestlers like Kyle Sndyer and Thomas GIlman.  It even attracts top international wrestlers like Bekzod, Frankling Gomez, and Jaime Espinal.  

I really don't know how you negate the advantage of the local RTC.  I don't think limiting high scool or college age participation is a good thing at least for USAW.  The RTC system probably deserves some of the blame for the US resurgence in the internatinal styles since 2010's nadir.  You can restrict them from sharing facilities or coaches with the colleges, but the biggest RTCs with the most money would just move adjacent to campus and pay for fulltime coaches.  Arguably that would hurt the smaller RTCs more than ones like NLWC that could afford an off campus facility and offer a competive salary to attract coaches.

I still think grayshirting in order to train pretty much full time at a school-affiliated RTC is gaming the NCAA system because in the case of Beard and Joe Lee it effectively gave them 2 redshirt years while still training for the most part with the team (and for that reason I don't I don't think the OTC is the same thing and don't have an issue with that).

But you bring up good points.  I'm honestly not sure how to negate the advantage either (or if we really "should" be trying to negate it), I just think something should be done to remove the gray area of RTC's as I doubt something similar would fly in most other sports.

In order to not lose the advantages it gives to our international team, maybe it's just literally removing the gray area and actually making them officially part of the school?   Allow currently enrolled students (and of course graduates and "resident athletes") to train there without restrictions, maybe even still allow high school students to train there (edit: although I kinda feel like there should be more restrictions on HS aged kids training there too, or else we'll probably see more stories of families moving to the town of a particular college), but restrict those that have graduated high school but are not currently enrolled (unless taking an Olympic redshirt).  Yes you'd have to come up with a solution for guys that don't go to college, but could probably even allow that too but then penalize them if they later enroll there.

I'm not sure if there's much more that you can do without severely impacting our international styles, so I don't think there's anyway to take away much of the advantage PSU in particular has by having an RTC that's so much better than everyone else's.  But I do think limiting grayshirts training there will help, since currently they're using the RTC as a place to stash them while juggling scholarships/starting spots.   

Edited by 1032004

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In related news, is it true there will be no incoming true freshmen next year due to high schools allowing kids to come back for a 5th and 6th year for that chance to win a coveted Sectional title.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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8 minutes ago, ionel said:

In related news, is it true there will be no incoming true freshmen next year due to high schools allowing kids to come back for a 5th and 6th year for that chance to win a coveted Sectional title.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know you are joking, but I wouldn't be surprised if COVID restrictions result in the average age of high school graduates increasing in the future too.  My nephew was old enough to start kindergarten this year, but his school district was doing 100% online learning at least to start the year.  Online learning puts a greater responsibility on parents who are not professional teachers and I would doubt the value in online kidergarten altogether.  Especially a hastily put together program like they would have.  Ultimately his parents decided to not send him this year.  Most places allow kids to start kindergarten if they are at least 5 years of age by some cutoff date typically somwhere between 7/31-9/30 of the year.  The age for compulsary attendance is generally 6 or 7 years old by the same date.  I would expect more parents would opt to not send their kids at the minimum eligibel age if their district is offering virtual kindergarten.

Another factor that could increase graduation age is students being less prepared for later grades and failing or choosing to repeat them.  Quickly thrown together online learning programs might prove less effective  than traditional lesson planes or untrained/unprepared parents taking the place of regular teachers whilst juggling fulltime employment could also prove to be less effecitve educators.  

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I think the ivy leagues and academies do it better than the rest.  The ivy and academy “prep” program are pretty much the same thing wherein they are taking classes at another school trying to be ACCEPTED to a school.  Meanwhile, they can get college competition.

The academies used to have people disenroll during injury, then they “re-apply” and come back.  (actually, it was just Navy in recent memory with Joe Baker).  However, I don’t think the academies do that anymore, but Cornell does.  I know for a fact, that dis enrollment is an “option” at USMA, but it will never be approved under any circumstances.  
 

The thing that people on this forum think is unbelievable and somewhat “sad” is this:

1.  You must take 12 credits to be a full time student per NCAA bylaws.

2.  12 credits per semester in order to compete; 1 redshirt year; 5 NCAA years. (I don’t count ORS because I assume they aren’t taking classes for THAT redshirt).

3.  Math:  (12*2)6=total credits = 144 credits.  About par for any bachelors of science.  It is not outside the realm of thought some guys take 1/2 classes each summer to stay on more of a 4 year track.

I think we just need to decide if college athletics are about pursuit of a degree or pursuit of a championship.  Sure you can have both, but if we REALLY are thinking about the INDIVIDUAL athlete, we should do this:

Allow two additional NCAA competitors per weight class who have graduated.  They will wrestle unattached and qualify for the NCAA tournament through a type of “last chance” qualifier.  Must be a previous R12 NCAA competitor.  Points don’t count for any university, even though they are tied to a RTC and taking classes.  They wouldn’t be on scholarship, and they won’t clog the lineup.  
 

 

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Fellas...

 

I find it laughable when post 30 somethings preach on whats best for someone's life journey that isn't their own...

If a kid wants to wrestle 6, 7 hell 8 years... who are you to tell them different...

If a kid is a solid wrestler and enjoys the process and all things involved and can compete... earn a starting position and its his 6, 7 or 8th year...  Who are you to tell them different... and to be honest the coaches and wrestlers for that matter do not care what you think or have to say on said topic... 

Do some of you really think there's a difference graduating college at 24 instead of 22... There isnt... in fact the two additional years of life experience probably help prepare you for "real life" just as much if not more...

It took me 6.5 years for college... Had basic training... a tour to Iraq in there and then when I came home I waited a bit before going back( 6 plus weeks or so) but in essence 6.5 years... Double Major Finance and Marketing ... Internship at Morgan Stanley... Coached and currently coaching my high school team... Got hired after 6.5 years of college at Morgan Stanley... What was the main reason I got hired other then my 3.8 GPA and internship... My life experience... Deployment to Iraq and military... plus coaching... thats what separated me from the other 25 kids 2 years younger w 3.7 or better gpas...

So to any and all our there trying to tell some one whats best for them and their journey ... maybe focus some of that energy on improving yourself... and your own journey...

 

So GD laughable ppl telling other ppl whats best... like they frigging know... lol

Sound like the government... 

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6 hours ago, LowSingleOTW said:

Fellas...

 

I find it laughable when post 30 somethings preach on whats best for someone's life journey that isn't their own...

If a kid wants to wrestle 6, 7 hell 8 years... who are you to tell them different...

If a kid is a solid wrestler and enjoys the process and all things involved and can compete... earn a starting position and its his 6, 7 or 8th year...  Who are you to tell them different... and to be honest the coaches and wrestlers for that matter do not care what you think or have to say on said topic... 

Do some of you really think there's a difference graduating college at 24 instead of 22... There isnt... in fact the two additional years of life experience probably help prepare you for "real life" just as much if not more...

It took me 6.5 years for college... Had basic training... a tour to Iraq in there and then when I came home I waited a bit before going back( 6 plus weeks or so) but in essence 6.5 years... Double Major Finance and Marketing ... Internship at Morgan Stanley... Coached and currently coaching my high school team... Got hired after 6.5 years of college at Morgan Stanley... What was the main reason I got hired other then my 3.8 GPA and internship... My life experience... Deployment to Iraq and military... plus coaching... thats what separated me from the other 25 kids 2 years younger w 3.7 or better gpas...

So to any and all our there trying to tell some one whats best for them and their journey ... maybe focus some of that energy on improving yourself... and your own journey...

 

So GD laughable ppl telling other ppl whats best... like they frigging know... lol

Sound like the government... 

People should be free to wrestle as long as they want or take as long as they want to graduate college.  That doesn't mean they should compete against 18-23 year old NCAA competition.

In regards to the Ivy League-The Ivy has a central policy of emphasizing academics over athletics that one program egregiously circumvents by withdrawing its athletes from school and/or delaying enrollment.  I view that issue as very separate from the NCAA  and is completely about the unique world of Ivy athletics.  The fact that there are athletes in the program 5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits is antithetical to the concept of being a student athlete.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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43 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

People should be free to wrestle as long as they want or take as long as they want to graduate college.  That doesn't mean they should compete against 18-23 year old NCAA competition.

In regards to the Ivy League-The Ivy has a central policy of emphasizing academics over athletics that one program egregiously circumvents by withdrawing its athletes from school and/or delaying enrollment.  I view that issue as very separate from the NCAA  and is completely about the unique world of Ivy athletics.  The fact that there are athletes in the program 5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits is antithetical to the concept of being a student athlete.  

We know you have a hard-on for bashing Cornell, but all the Ivy schools do the same for wrestling, and all within Ivy League rules.  They all have RTCs that they use, and they all allow their students to take time off.  None of that interferes with their athletes getting an Ivy degree, which they all do.  Get over it.

The Ivy League requires that you matriculate within one year of graduating high school (thus allowing grey shirting).  They require that you graduate college within five years of matriculating (thus allowing time off).  They don't recognize an Olympic Red Shirt, thus requiring the wrestler to withdraw from school to preserve eligibility.  They don't allow graduate students to compete.  So, the only way your hypothetical wrestler exists and would be able to continue wrestling at that school is if he earned and received a hardship waiver.  It's not clear that Max Dean, Vito, or Yianni will be able to compete for two more years at Cornell without getting a medical or non-participation waiver for COVID (because of the "four in five [8 semesters]" rule). 

Who, besides Dean, meets your "5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits" criterion?  Yianni and Vito are only four years out.  Darmstadt has three years of college (at least).  Who am I missing?  You did say "athletes".

Edited to add:

Cornell doesn't withdraw its athletes or delay their enrollment.  That's a gross mischaracterization of the fact that these athletes have agency and with their families make these decisions *for themselves*.  You know this, or should. So you're either disingenuous or ignorant.

Edited by klehner

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7 hours ago, LowSingleOTW said:

It took me 6.5 years for college... Had basic training... a tour to Iraq in there and then when I came home I waited a bit before going back( 6 plus weeks or so) but in essence 6.5 years... Double Major Finance and Marketing ... Internship at Morgan Stanley...

First, thank you for your service. Second, maybe some of the older wrestler can utilize your experience at Morgan Stanley as they will have substantially fewer years to save for retirement. Win win. 

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40 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

First, thank you for your service. Second, maybe some of the older wrestler can utilize your experience at Morgan Stanley as they will have substantially fewer years to save for retirement. Win win. 

Substantially? 

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3 hours ago, klehner said:

We know you have a hard-on for bashing Cornell, but all the Ivy schools do the same for wrestling, and all within Ivy League rules.  They all have RTCs that they use, and they all allow their students to take time off.  None of that interferes with their athletes getting an Ivy degree, which they all do.  Get over it.

The Ivy League requires that you matriculate within one year of graduating high school (thus allowing grey shirting).  They require that you graduate college within five years of matriculating (thus allowing time off).  They don't recognize an Olympic Red Shirt, thus requiring the wrestler to withdraw from school to preserve eligibility.  They don't allow graduate students to compete.  So, the only way your hypothetical wrestler exists and would be able to continue wrestling at that school is if he earned and received a hardship waiver.  It's not clear that Max Dean, Vito, or Yianni will be able to compete for two more years at Cornell without getting a medical or non-participation waiver for COVID (because of the "four in five [8 semesters]" rule). 

Who, besides Dean, meets your "5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits" criterion?  Yianni and Vito are only four years out.  Darmstadt has three years of college (at least).  Who am I missing?  You did say "athletes".

Edited to add:

Cornell doesn't withdraw its athletes or delay their enrollment.  That's a gross mischaracterization of the fact that these athletes have agency and with their families make these decisions *for themselves*.  You know this, or should. So you're either disingenuous or ignorant.

Vito will fit that description in a year right? 

I thought the Ivy League did give everyone an extra year on the timeline for this year, no?

So really, he/Dean are no different than anyone that took a regular redshirt and then an ORS in 2020, they just couldn’t compete this year and thus didn’t get the free year.

So I agree with Billyhoyle in that it’s not really an issue compared to other D1 programs, but it does seem to be circumventing the Ivy rules.  Yes, other  Ivies have RTC’s and some guys grayshirt, but Cornell is the only one with a system in place where like 90% of the recruits grayshirt.  Yes it’s each person’s choice but I think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Koll “strongly suggests” it. 

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Just now, 1032004 said:

Vito will fit that description in a year right? 

I thought the Ivy League did give everyone an extra year on the timeline for this year, no?

So really, he/Dean are no different than anyone that took a regular redshirt and then an ORS in 2020, they just couldn’t compete this year and thus didn’t get the free year.

So I agree with Billyhoyle in that it’s not really an issue compared to other D1 programs, but it does seem to be circumventing the Ivy rules.  Yes, other  Ivies have RTC’s and some guys grayshirt, but Cornell is the only one with a system in place where like 90% of the recruits grayshirt.  Yes it’s each person’s choice but I think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Koll “strongly suggests” it. 

Only current seniors will have the option of competing as graduate students *at the same school*.  Princeton seniors noted that the graduate program application deadline had long since passed, and they were given no leeway.  So, really didn't help them (and likely doesn't help others).

Cornell is only different in that they are earlier in this program than the others, who are *all* duplicating the model.  Like it or not.  No Ivy League rules are being circumvented, obviously.

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27 minutes ago, klehner said:

Only current seniors will have the option of competing as graduate students *at the same school*.  Princeton seniors noted that the graduate program application deadline had long since passed, and they were given no leeway.  So, really didn't help them (and likely doesn't help others).

Cornell is only different in that they are earlier in this program than the others, who are *all* duplicating the model.  Like it or not.  No Ivy League rules are being circumvented, obviously.

https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/11/12/general-ivy-league-outlines-intercollegiate-athletics-plans-no-competition-for-winter-sports.aspx

Is “athletes will not lose a season of eligibility whether or not they enroll” not essentially saying that they get a year extension to the 5 year timeline?

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