Jump to content
Fishbane

7th year wrestlers in 2021-2022 sesaon

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, klehner said:

We know you have a hard-on for bashing Cornell, but all the Ivy schools do the same for wrestling, and all within Ivy League rules.  They all have RTCs that they use, and they all allow their students to take time off.  None of that interferes with their athletes getting an Ivy degree, which they all do.  Get over it.

The Ivy League requires that you matriculate within one year of graduating high school (thus allowing grey shirting).  They require that you graduate college within five years of matriculating (thus allowing time off).  They don't recognize an Olympic Red Shirt, thus requiring the wrestler to withdraw from school to preserve eligibility.  They don't allow graduate students to compete.  So, the only way your hypothetical wrestler exists and would be able to continue wrestling at that school is if he earned and received a hardship waiver.  It's not clear that Max Dean, Vito, or Yianni will be able to compete for two more years at Cornell without getting a medical or non-participation waiver for COVID (because of the "four in five [8 semesters]" rule). 

Who, besides Dean, meets your "5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits" criterion?  Yianni and Vito are only four years out.  Darmstadt has three years of college (at least).  Who am I missing?  You did say "athletes".

Edited to add:

Cornell doesn't withdraw its athletes or delay their enrollment.  That's a gross mischaracterization of the fact that these athletes have agency and with their families make these decisions *for themselves*.  You know this, or should. So you're either disingenuous or ignorant.

How am I even remotely a Cornell hater? I just don’t like the way they circumvent the Ivy rules.  If they just left the conference and used the regular redshirt/ORS system I’d have zero problem with what they are doing.  Overall, I’m a huge fan of the program and root for many Cornell wrestlers- both Yianni and Vito are the guys I’d like to see win the Olympic spot.  


How many years towards a college degree do Max Dean, Yianni, or Vito have? If they had gone to Northwestern or Duke, how many would they have (all three would have graduated and two would have masters degrees)? 
 

And the argument that the rest of the Ivy League does this is either disingenuous or ignorant-nobody does this to the scale/degree/organization of Cornell. 

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Vito will fit that description in a year right? 

I thought the Ivy League did give everyone an extra year on the timeline for this year, no?

So really, he/Dean are no different than anyone that took a regular redshirt and then an ORS in 2020, they just couldn’t compete this year and thus didn’t get the free year.

So I agree with Billyhoyle in that it’s not really an issue compared to other D1 programs, but it does seem to be circumventing the Ivy rules.  Yes, other  Ivies have RTC’s and some guys grayshirt, but Cornell is the only one with a system in place where like 90% of the recruits grayshirt.  Yes it’s each person’s choice but I think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Koll “strongly suggests” it. 

Careful-using logic gets you labeled a hater by some in the Cornell fan base. What Cornell does is actually much worse than the traditional redshirt/ORS system, because their athletes aren’t accumulating anything towards a college degree during their redshirts. In effect, they have been out of high school 4 or 5 years with barely any progress toward their degrees, while their peers at non Ivy D1 schools are earning masters degrees. But competitively, yes they are not at any advantage over PSU/Iowa, but are at a huge one over the rest of the ivies. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 9insoft said:

Darmstadt needs to get done with his Ag degree and get back to his families emerging Maple Syrup conglomerate in Vermont.

Vermont? Aren't they clear cutting those Maples to erect solar farms and windmills? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

How am I even remotely a Cornell hater? I just don’t like the way they circumvent the Ivy rules.  If they just left the conference and used the regular redshirt/ORS system I’d have zero problem with what they are doing.  Overall, I’m a huge fan of the program and root for many Cornell wrestlers- both Yianni and Vito are the guys I’d like to see win the Olympic spot.  


How many years towards a college degree do Max Dean, Yianni, or Vito have? If they had gone to Northwestern or Duke, how many would they have (all three would have graduated and two would have masters degrees)? 
 

And the argument that the rest of the Ivy League does this is either disingenuous or ignorant-nobody does this to the scale/degree/organization of Cornell. 

Careful-using logic gets you labeled a hater by some in the Cornell fan base. What Cornell does is actually much worse than the traditional redshirt/ORS system, because their athletes aren’t accumulating anything towards a college degree during their redshirts. In effect, they have been out of high school 4 or 5 years with barely any progress toward their degrees, while their peers at non Ivy D1 schools are earning masters degrees. But competitively, yes they are not at any advantage over PSU/Iowa, but are at a huge one over the rest of the ivies. 

You clearly have an axe to grind.  That becomes abundantly clear if one reads back through your previous posts in this thread and others.  You're also grossly oversimplifying and twisting the discussion to fit your agenda.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TBar1977 said:

Well, they had to act fast to replace all the cows that are going to have to be euthenized to cut down on methane. 

Maybe Penn State and Cornell can work together to come up with methane free diet cows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, cu155 said:

You clearly have an axe to grind.  That becomes abundantly clear if one reads back through your previous posts in this thread and others.  You're also grossly oversimplifying and twisting the discussion to fit your agenda.  

I just don’t like the way Cornell circumvents Ivy rules. It’s a single thing that I take issue with, and I post my opinion on it in threads where it comes up. How is that an axe to grind? It’s nothing about Cornell itself that I don’t like-it’s this one action. I have to agree with Cornell 100% of the time or I’m labeled a hater? If Columbia or Harvard wrestling were making a mockery of the league, I would be posting in Columbia/Harvard threads about how what they are doing is wrong. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, klehner said:

It doesn't say that.

Not sure why it’s only on the Harvard site (unless maybe it’s just a Harvard decision) but what about this - https://gocrimson.com/news/2020/11/12/general-harvard-athletics-student-athlete-faq-as-of-nov-12-2020.aspx

Says if you were on a winter sport roster in fall 2020 you get a 6th year on the clock.   Although I guess Yianni, Vito and Dean were not.

I feel like it’d be pretty big news if those 3 couldn’t wrestle as seniors at Cornell.  Even if they need a waiver there has to be an assumption it will get granted right?

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2021 at 8:36 AM, klehner said:

We know you have a hard-on for bashing Cornell, but all the Ivy schools do the same for wrestling, and all within Ivy League rules.  They all have RTCs that they use, and they all allow their students to take time off.  None of that interferes with their athletes getting an Ivy degree, which they all do.  Get over it.

The Ivy League requires that you matriculate within one year of graduating high school (thus allowing grey shirting).  They require that you graduate college within five years of matriculating (thus allowing time off).  They don't recognize an Olympic Red Shirt, thus requiring the wrestler to withdraw from school to preserve eligibility.  They don't allow graduate students to compete.  So, the only way your hypothetical wrestler exists and would be able to continue wrestling at that school is if he earned and received a hardship waiver.  It's not clear that Max Dean, Vito, or Yianni will be able to compete for two more years at Cornell without getting a medical or non-participation waiver for COVID (because of the "four in five [8 semesters]" rule). 

Who, besides Dean, meets your "5 years removed from high school (all spent training at the RTC) with 2 years worth of college credits" criterion?  Yianni and Vito are only four years out.  Darmstadt has three years of college (at least).  Who am I missing?  You did say "athletes".

Edited to add:

Cornell doesn't withdraw its athletes or delay their enrollment.  That's a gross mischaracterization of the fact that these athletes have agency and with their families make these decisions *for themselves*.  You know this, or should. So you're either disingenuous or ignorant.

I see this on Cornell's Q&A for COVID-19, and this probably applies to Vito/Dean/Yianni/Darmstadt (which means they will be able to complete their careers at Cornell):

Q:       I already missed competing for a year due to medical reasons. Would I be able to use my remaining eligibility in a 6th year?

A:    Generally, NCAA rules require you to use your four years of eligibility within five years from when you initially enroll in college. The NCAA has issued a waiver that extends a student-athlete’s clock to 6 years if they missed a season due to COVID-19 (Spring 2020, Fall 2020, Winter 2020-21) and were otherwise eligible for that season. A decision regarding Spring 2021 has not yet been issued. Remember, to compete at Cornell you would need to be an undergraduate student for all 6 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2021 at 12:33 AM, LowSingleOTW said:

Fellas...

 

I find it laughable when post 30 somethings preach on whats best for someone's life journey that isn't their own...

If a kid wants to wrestle 6, 7 hell 8 years... who are you to tell them different...

If a kid is a solid wrestler and enjoys the process and all things involved and can compete... earn a starting position and its his 6, 7 or 8th year...  Who are you to tell them different... and to be honest the coaches and wrestlers for that matter do not care what you think or have to say on said topic... 

Do some of you really think there's a difference graduating college at 24 instead of 22... There isnt... in fact the two additional years of life experience probably help prepare you for "real life" just as much if not more...

It took me 6.5 years for college... Had basic training... a tour to Iraq in there and then when I came home I waited a bit before going back( 6 plus weeks or so) but in essence 6.5 years... Double Major Finance and Marketing ... Internship at Morgan Stanley... Coached and currently coaching my high school team... Got hired after 6.5 years of college at Morgan Stanley... What was the main reason I got hired other then my 3.8 GPA and internship... My life experience... Deployment to Iraq and military... plus coaching... thats what separated me from the other 25 kids 2 years younger w 3.7 or better gpas...

So to any and all our there trying to tell some one whats best for them and their journey ... maybe focus some of that energy on improving yourself... and your own journey...

 

So GD laughable ppl telling other ppl whats best... like they frigging know... lol

Sound like the government... 

I think the argument is someone spending 7 years in college culminating with a bachelors is stretching it out a bit too long.  The age at graduation is not the argument.  
 

You spent 6.5 years to get your degree with basic/AIT plus a deployment, plus 6 weeks.  That is at least 1.5 years of time you are not in school.  Subtract that and you got a degree in 5 years.  If your internship was after graduation, that means you spent 4 years in school.

highly normal.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remind me about the D3 rules. Don't you have four years to compete, the years don't have to be sequential, and thus there's no need for redshirts?

If that's right, I like those rules.

Then again, if you feel like wrestling when you're 24 why not hit the senior circuit?

 

Edited by jackwebster
I had the dumb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2021 at 1:33 AM, LowSingleOTW said:

Fellas...

 

I find it laughable when post 30 somethings preach on whats best for someone's life journey that isn't their own...

If a kid wants to wrestle 6, 7 hell 8 years... who are you to tell them different...

If a kid is a solid wrestler and enjoys the process and all things involved and can compete... earn a starting position and its his 6, 7 or 8th year...  Who are you to tell them different... and to be honest the coaches and wrestlers for that matter do not care what you think or have to say on said topic... 

Do some of you really think there's a difference graduating college at 24 instead of 22... There isnt... in fact the two additional years of life experience probably help prepare you for "real life" just as much if not more...

It took me 6.5 years for college... Had basic training... a tour to Iraq in there and then when I came home I waited a bit before going back( 6 plus weeks or so) but in essence 6.5 years... Double Major Finance and Marketing ... Internship at Morgan Stanley... Coached and currently coaching my high school team... Got hired after 6.5 years of college at Morgan Stanley... What was the main reason I got hired other then my 3.8 GPA and internship... My life experience... Deployment to Iraq and military... plus coaching... thats what separated me from the other 25 kids 2 years younger w 3.7 or better gpas...

So to any and all our there trying to tell some one whats best for them and their journey ... maybe focus some of that energy on improving yourself... and your own journey...

 

So GD laughable ppl telling other ppl whats best... like they frigging know... lol

Sound like the government... 

Why not join an RTC and wrestle at the senior level? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/7/2021 at 2:58 PM, jackwebster said:

Remind me about the D3 rules. Don't you have four years to compete, the years don't have to be sequential, and thus there's no need for redshirts?

If that's right, I like those rules.

Then again, if you feel like wrestling when you're 24 why not hit the senior circuit?

 

Former D3 wrestler, this conversation makes it seems like you can't end up doing this in D3, hate to inform people but there are always to extend your eligibility as much as possible. I was a 4th year senior who ended up behind a 7th year senior. Really to anyone who wants to complain that is not fair I had every opportunity to beat him and win the spot but he was the better wrestler or take a free redshirt year but I had chosen to go 4 straight from advice from people who took redshirts or injury waivers late in their careers and said it hurt them in the end due to it being harder for their body to readjust after a year off. He was not the only 7th year senior during my 4 years and I saw multiple other teams with 6th and 7th year seniors. Doesn't get as much attention and its a stricter version of the rules in theory but people still find loopholes and exceptions and would rather have opportunities available to all not just the people who look for the loopholes.

Edited by Tiger285
Spelling error

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/3/2021 at 1:08 AM, Billyhoyle said:

I just don’t like the way Cornell circumvents Ivy rules. It’s a single thing that I take issue with, and I post my opinion on it in threads where it comes up. How is that an axe to grind? It’s nothing about Cornell itself that I don’t like-it’s this one action. I have to agree with Cornell 100% of the time or I’m labeled a hater? If Columbia or Harvard wrestling were making a mockery of the league, I would be posting in Columbia/Harvard threads about how what they are doing is wrong. 

Couple different points to your grumbles.  Cornell has the only team that is legitimately national caliber competitive in the Ivy.  Cornell is the bottom of the 8 Ivies, and as I’ve had pointed out to me, some of the schools under the Cornell umbrella are technically state schools.  The administration is clearly supportive of Cornell having a killer wrestling program.

Across the Ivies, if you look in other competitive areas, guarantee you can find similar behavior in areas the Ivies are very competitive, like crew. 

Rather than being an end run, Cornell might actually require some wrestlers to take Greyshirt years. Greyshirt/Gap years allows the school to exclude the wrestlers from their admission statistics.  In non-athletic situations, schools require kids of very wealthy alums with low grades to take a gap year before enrolling bc they fall outside the most popularly analyzed statistics used to evaluate admissions rigor. 

No team does an end run and gets sneaky with their admissions or the league.  If Cornell wrestling is doing it, they are doing it with the full support and awareness of the Admissions department and the administration at large. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tiger285 said:

Former D3 wrestler, this conversation makes it seems like you can't end up doing this in D3, hate to inform people but there are always to extend your eligibility as much as possible. I was a 4th year senior who ended up behind a 7th year senior. Really to anyone who wants to complain that is not fair I had every opportunity to beat him and win the spot but he was the better wrestler or take a free redshirt year but I had chosen to go 4 straight from advice from people who took redshirts or injury waivers late in their careers and said it hurt them in the end due to it being harder for their body to readjust after a year off. He was not the only 7th year senior during my 4 years and I saw multiple other teams with 6th and 7th year seniors. Doesn't get as much attention and its a stricter version of the rules in theory but people still find loopholes and exceptions and would rather have opportunities available to all not just the people who look for the loopholes.

I don’t believe D3 has “redshirts”...to your point you just have to take a year off and can’t practice with the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tiger285 said:

Former D3 wrestler, this conversation makes it seems like you can't end up doing this in D3, hate to inform people but there are always to extend your eligibility as much as possible. I was a 4th year senior who ended up behind a 7th year senior. Really to anyone who wants to complain that is not fair I had every opportunity to beat him and win the spot but he was the better wrestler or take a free redshirt year but I had chosen to go 4 straight from advice from people who took redshirts or injury waivers late in their careers and said it hurt them in the end due to it being harder for their body to readjust after a year off. He was not the only 7th year senior during my 4 years and I saw multiple other teams with 6th and 7th year seniors. Doesn't get as much attention and its a stricter version of the rules in theory but people still find loopholes and exceptions and would rather have opportunities available to all not just the people who look for the loopholes.

Also former D3 here, what is the point of doing that at the D3 level? We weren’t allowed to do that bc the school required graduation in pretty short order, but what is there to be gained from being a 5th/6th/7th year senior fighting for D3 placement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Also former D3 here, what is the point of doing that at the D3 level? We weren’t allowed to do that bc the school required graduation in pretty short order, but what is there to be gained from being a 5th/6th/7th year senior fighting for D3 placement?

Most of the programs at our school are 5 years degrees with a year of cooperative learning so it was very normal for us to have a 5th year senior who did not wrestle during his the year of one of his cooperative learning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m honestly shocked..  that people are shocked at athletes…

- who’ve often wrestled since they were <10 years old.
- often Competed 100s of a year since they were kids

- traveled all over the country to national tournaments.. often since they were young

- Often have been told repeatedly they must dedicate their life to wrestling if they want to win… 

- have often chose or been “encouraged” to put wrestling ahead of a normal social life

- often never get a regular job before graduating college…

Want to extend their competition career as much as possible. I’ve seen the same posters who love our “upcoming youth” and defend the current system.. decry the guys “delaying real life”..

 

hypocrisy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...