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Is Dake better than Taylor?


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#1 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:09 AM

Although I'm sure most would say yes, including myself, it seems that there are quite a few out there who aren't willing to admit, without qualification, that Dake is a better wrestler than David Taylor. Just going by a lot of the talk I've heard, it seems people are still leaning to the side of "Taylor did something wrong" to explain away the results, rather than what Dake did right.

Am I the only one who's heard the, "If only Taylor would do (insert whatever strategic/technical improvement here) he'd win easily/comfortably"? I've heard many say that Dake is just 'in Taylor's head", to explain why Dake is winnng all their matches. I agree with that, but I believe that Dake is both in Taylor's head AND better. When others say it, it's more in the context of saying that Taylor has a weird mental issue that's stopping him from doing what he should obviously be able to do, which is, beat Dake. Maybe the best way to put it is, there are a lot out there who still seem to believe that it is ultimately Taylor that's beating himself, not Dake.

Has anyone else come across this? Did I describe anyone here, who's willing to share why they have these beliefs?

#2 headshuck

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:18 AM

I hate myself for opening this thread

#3 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:19 AM

I hate myself for opening this thread


Sorry headshuck! You can hate me instead if you want. :D

#4 Perry

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

Dake is the OW/Hodge winner this year and 4-0 in matches against Taylor. To say he's not better at this point wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, but there will always be biased fans who aren't willing to accept reality. Does Dake put up the points against lesser opponents the same way Taylor does? Not always, but he does beat Taylor head to head and hasn't lost an official college match in over 2 years where Taylor has.

#5 denny

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:36 AM

With all sarcasm aside :

Let me see if I got this right (a la detective Columbo).....

1) Dake beats Taylor X 2 this past season. Is that correct ?
2) Dake's second win vs Taylor , this season , came in perhaps
the most ballyhoo'd bout that I have seen. The pressure had
to have built up waaay high for both guys. Yet, Mr Dake
prevailed. Indeed he did.

Now, I am a Taylor sorta guy. But methinks that Dake is the man.

And that's the truth.

#6 GRAPLER

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:39 AM

Also consider how the opponents Dake beat in the NCAA finals each of his four years did in their other seasons:

165- Taylor (Penn St), NCAA Champ
157- St. John's (Iowa), NCAA Champ
149- Molinaro (Penn St), NCAA Champ
141- Marion (Iowa), NCAA runner-up (lost the finals in sudden victory overtime)

That means these guys all (virtually) went on to win the NCAAs when Dake had moved on to another weight, and could have/would have been the NCAA Champ that year had it not been for Dake.

An interesting side note......Taylor and Dake graduating high school the same season (Taylor redshirted) and Taylor, not Dake, has actually gone up more in weight since graduating. Taylor wrestled 135 his season year and Dake 140. A lot was made about Taylor being too small for 157 (the weight he entered after his redshirt year). Nothing was made about Dake's weight, as he started his carreer at 141. However, Dake kept moving up each year in college....while Taylor moved only from 157 to eventually 165.

#7 skikayaker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:06 AM

If I'm Cael I'd rather have Taylor's 24 team points over Dake's 22 team points, particularly if Wright doesn't pull off the upset.
ASICS - (Latin) Anima Sana In Corpore Sano - (English) a sound mind in a sound body.

#8 Perry

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

If I'm Cael I'd rather have Taylor's 24 team points over Dake's 22 team points, particularly if Wright doesn't pull off the upset.


If I was Cael I'd want Taylor to win, which would have gotten the W for Penn State even if Q had lost against Killa the gorilla. I wonder how often it is for a runner up to outscore the champion at the NCAAs..

#9 flaBigRedfan

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:50 AM

If I'm Cael I'd rather have Taylor's 24 team points over Dake's 22 team points, particularly if Wright doesn't pull off the upset.


I'm thinking Cael would prefer for his wrestler's to win and wouldn't "settle" for a second place bonus monster. Cael is a winner and has a winning mentality. His philosophy seems to be to train people to be the best and the team results will take care of themselves - and that is working.

Taking it to an extreme, I don't think Cael would "prefer" to have 10 NCAA runner-ups. I think he would choose to have his individual wrestlers as national champs.

And, if PSU had been 0-5 in the finals and they still won the team championship, do you think Cael would be happy because at least he had the wrestlers that scored the most "bonus points"?

#10 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:51 AM

Interesting topic. I actually was reading something similar on the home board I generally read and post to. The general consensus seems to be that Taylor is indeed better than Dake, (in folkstyle) and that Dake is just a bad match up for him. We've all seen this, dominant teams or individuals losing to inferior opponents, multiple times and there seemingly being no rhyme or reason for those results. One individual and the OP pointed out that Taylor dismantles and dominates common opponents MUCH worse than Dake is able to. Another point was Dake has been beaten by several different opponents in college while Taylor has only been defeated by 2 individuals. Compelling, I hadn't really considered that. Taylor routinely puts up more points than Dake at the biggest tournament of the year. Another check mark for the young Ohioan. And then there's the eye test. If you watch them both wrestle and don't have any information on their respective resumes, who do you think is better? I have to admit, The case for Taylor is pretty strong. Which one is better? It's too close to call. I'm still swayed pretty good by Dake's head to head record vs Taylor.

#11 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

If I'm Cael I'd rather have Taylor's 24 team points over Dake's 22 team points, particularly if Wright doesn't pull off the upset.


I'm thinking Cael would prefer for his wrestler's to win and wouldn't "settle" for a second place bonus monster. Cael is a winner and has a winning mentality. His philosophy seems to be to train people to be the best and the team results will take care of themselves - and that is working.

Taking it to an extreme, I don't think Cael would "prefer" to have 10 NCAA runner-ups. I think he would choose to have his individual wrestlers as national champs.

And, if PSU had been 0-5 in the finals and they still won the team championship, do you think Cael would be happy because at least he had the wrestlers that scored the most "bonus points"?


All you need to do in order to answer our own question is to watch the the 184 pound final. His wrestler was comfortably ahead and in no need of taking any risks. He could have ridden the match out and won a national championship. But the staff was jumping around like monkeys, (for a second I had to double check that it wasn't the Brands brothers) and imploring him to score more points, in order to win that team championship. That should tell you where the focus was when all the cards were down.

#12 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:59 AM

Interesting topic. I actually was reading something similar on the home board I generally read and post to. The general consensus seems to be that Taylor is indeed better than Dake, (in folkstyle) and that Dake is just a bad match up for him. We've all seen this, dominant teams or individuals losing to inferior opponents, multiple times and there seemingly being no rhyme or reason for those results. One individual and the OP pointed out that Taylor dismantles and dominates common opponents MUCH worse than Dake is able to. Another point was Dake has been beaten by several different opponents in college while Taylor has only been defeated by 2 individuals. Compelling, I hadn't really considered that. Taylor routinely puts up more points than Dake at the biggest tournament of the year. Another check mark for the young Ohioan. And then there's the eye test. If you watch them both wrestle and don't have any information on their respective resumes, who do you think is better? I have to admit, The case for Taylor is pretty strong. Which one is better? It's too close to call. I'm still swayed pretty good by Dake's head to head record vs Taylor.



I've come across more than a few who follow that line of reasoning.

#13 silver-medal

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

There is no collegiate wrestler that is more fun to watch than David Taylor. He's a brilliant technician and the ease with which he flows from move to move is spellbinding. No doubting his greatness.

Dake's better.

#14 OCGrappler

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

The argument about Dake having lost to more opponents is very weak. How many losses would Taylor have if he wrestled as a true freshman like Dake did? He lost his wrestle off (badly) to Cyler. Dake had 2 losses his true freshman year when Taylor was on redshirt. Since then, Taylor has 4 losses...Dake has 2 both as a true sophomore.

Only on the Internet can there be an argument of a 4x champ vs a 1x champ when the 4x champ has also beaten the 1x champ head to head four times in four matches.

#15 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:07 AM

If I'm Cael I'd rather have Taylor's 24 team points over Dake's 22 team points, particularly if Wright doesn't pull off the upset.


Who would you say is better between Dake and Taylor?

#16 VakAttack

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:15 AM

More evidence is needed. I think I need to watch Dake win 30-40 more times to be sure.

And did you see that picture of Cael in the hallway after the 165 Finals? It sure seemed like he was thinking "Thank God I have David Taylor's 24 team points to Dake's 22."

Seriously, this is getting a little sad.

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#17 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:17 AM

The argument about Dake having lost to more opponents is very weak. How many losses would Taylor have if he wrestled as a true freshman like Dake did? He lost his wrestle off (badly) to Cyler. Dake had 2 losses his true freshman year when Taylor was on redshirt. Since then, Taylor has 4 losses...Dake has 2 both as a true sophomore.

Only on the Internet can there be an argument of a 4x champ vs a 1x champ when the 4x champ has also beaten the 1x champ head to head four times in four matches.


Good points. For some reason, it seems there is a pretty strong group out there who aren't fully willing to say that Dake is better yet. They like what Taylor brings to the table more. I wonder what people would say if Taylor had a 4-0 record over Dake.

#18 xander

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:18 AM

Vak

Beyond a reasonable doubt?
Tony Clifton

#19 superold

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:19 AM

More evidence is needed. I think I need to watch Dake win 30-40 more times to be sure.

And did you see that picture of Cael in the hallway after the 165 Finals? It sure seemed like he was thinking "Thank God I have David Taylor's 24 team points to Dake's 22."

Seriously, this is getting a little sad.



Could you link the picture by any chance? What do you think people would say if Taylor were 4-0 vs Dake?

#20 BigRedMachine

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

More evidence is needed. I think I need to watch Dake win 30-40 more times to be sure.

And did you see that picture of Cael in the hallway after the 165 Finals? It sure seemed like he was thinking "Thank God I have David Taylor's 24 team points to Dake's 22."

Seriously, this is getting a little sad.



Could you link the picture by any chance? What do you think people would say if Taylor were 4-0 vs Dake?

In all honesty people would probably be calling him the second greatest college wrestler of all time behind Cael.




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