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superold

Is Dake better than Taylor?

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Let's put this in perspective. DT has 3 losses (4 if you count All-Star) in his career. 2 (3) of those came to a 4x NCAA champ, who many are calling the best ever, by a combined 2 points. He ran the table last year and won the Hodge. He has pinned his way up to the NCAA finals twice and dominated the regular season and Big 10 tournament 3 times. He will likely end with another dominating season and title next year finishing 2121. You can try to lump him in with every other 2x NCAA champ to get under some taylor/psu skin, but that doesn't exactly paint an accurate picture.

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Let's put this in perspective. DT has 3 losses (4 if you count All-Star) in his career. 2 (3) of those came to a 4x NCAA champ, who many are calling the best ever, by a combined 2 points. He ran the table last year and won the Hodge. He has pinned his way up to the NCAA finals twice and dominated the regular season and Big 10 tournament 3 times. He will likely end with another dominating season and title next year finishing 2121. You can try to lump him in with every other 2x NCAA champ to get under some taylor/psu skin, but that doesn't exactly paint an accurate picture.

 

Metcalf.

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Let's put this in perspective. DT has 3 losses (4 if you count All-Star) in his career. 2 (3) of those came to a 4x NCAA champ, who many are calling the best ever, by a combined 2 points. He ran the table last year and won the Hodge. He has pinned his way up to the NCAA finals twice and dominated the regular season and Big 10 tournament 3 times. He will likely end with another dominating season and title next year finishing 2121. You can try to lump him in with every other 2x NCAA champ to get under some taylor/psu skin, but that doesn't exactly paint an accurate picture.

 

Nobody was lumping him with "every other 2x champ". Some, including myself, are lumping him with the baker's dozen of "4x finalist, 2x champ". Because, assuming he wins next year, that's where he'll be. There are only 13 members of that club. It is hardly a put down down to compare Taylor to them.

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Ironically LiMarty may have correctly predicted some of this. My memory is a little hazy, but I think he said DT would not win an ncaa title until maybe 3rd or 4th yr, giving him 1 or 2 titles. He was incorrect in predicting DT would struggle his RS Fr year, even against B10 opponents.

 

A broken clock is still right twice a day.

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Longshot-You can paint it anyway you want man. He's Varner, Askren, Mocco, etc. if he wins next year. That's not to get under anyone's skin, as a matter of fact it only would get under your skin if you expected more of DT, which was my question. I've said twice I think the Varner, Askren, Mocco club is pretty impressive but no matter how you paint him he's not better than that. Mokoma said that's about what he expected from DT, I wonder if that's about what all PSU guys had him winning? By the talk from some guys you'd think more than two was expected, but maybe not. Two titles and four final appearances is really good, only 13 dudes in that club right? Pretty good. Kyle Dake, however, is in a whole different category of special and I'm glad I got to see all 4.

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Longshot-You can paint it anyway you want man. He's Varner, Askren, Mocco, etc. if he wins next year. That's not to get under anyone's skin, as a matter of fact it only would get under your skin if you expected more of DT, which was my question. I've said twice I think the Varner, Askren, Mocco club is pretty impressive but no matter how you paint him he's not better than that. Mokoma said that's about what he expected from DT, I wonder if that's about what all PSU guys had him winning? By the talk from some guys you'd think more than two was expected, but maybe not. Two titles and four final appearances is really good, only 13 dudes in that club right? Pretty good. Kyle Dake, however, is in a whole different category of special and I'm glad I got to see all 4.

 

ok fair enough i got the impression some were trying to say he's "only" going to be a 2x champ. I would venture to say that if he ends next year with a season like last year he'll be considered the best 2x champ ever. Outside of his two final losses who is the last wrestler to dominate like him? hint: rhymes with hail, pail and mail.

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Metcalf.

 

2x champ, career record 108-3? Sounds like DT to me.

 

Oddly, no hurt, Caldwell and Metcalf would be a 1xr

 

Even if we all just agree with your magical (and oft-repeated for no real reason) premise that Caldwell would automatically have beaten Metcalf again, Caldwell had said he was taking a redshirt before he hurt himself.

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Longshot-You can paint it anyway you want man. He's Varner, Askren, Mocco, etc. if he wins next year. That's not to get under anyone's skin, as a matter of fact it only would get under your skin if you expected more of DT, which was my question. I've said twice I think the Varner, Askren, Mocco club is pretty impressive but no matter how you paint him he's not better than that. Mokoma said that's about what he expected from DT, I wonder if that's about what all PSU guys had him winning? By the talk from some guys you'd think more than two was expected, but maybe not. Two titles and four final appearances is really good, only 13 dudes in that club right? Pretty good. Kyle Dake, however, is in a whole different category of special and I'm glad I got to see all 4.

 

ok fair enough i got the impression some were trying to say he's "only" going to be a 2x champ. I would venture to say that if he ends next year with a season like last year he'll be considered the best 2x champ ever. Outside of his two final losses who is the last wrestler to dominate like him? hint: rhymes with hail, pail and mail.

I would take Gable over Taylor.

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Longshot-You can paint it anyway you want man. He's Varner, Askren, Mocco, etc. if he wins next year. That's not to get under anyone's skin, as a matter of fact it only would get under your skin if you expected more of DT, which was my question. I've said twice I think the Varner, Askren, Mocco club is pretty impressive but no matter how you paint him he's not better than that. Mokoma said that's about what he expected from DT, I wonder if that's about what all PSU guys had him winning? By the talk from some guys you'd think more than two was expected, but maybe not. Two titles and four final appearances is really good, only 13 dudes in that club right? Pretty good. Kyle Dake, however, is in a whole different category of special and I'm glad I got to see all 4.

 

ok fair enough i got the impression some were trying to say he's "only" going to be a 2x champ. I would venture to say that if he ends next year with a season like last year he'll be considered the best 2x champ ever. Outside of his two final losses who is the last wrestler to dominate like him? hint: rhymes with hail, pail and mail.

 

To be honest, David Taylor's winning percentage will barely be in the top 5 of wrestlers winning "only 2 titles." I would not consider David to be the best 2 timer if he wins next year. (It will not surprise me if he only wins 1 title, and even at that point I would probably not call him the best ever of that bunch.)

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For what it's worth Ben Askren only lost to two guys. He just had to wrestle Pendleton more times than Taylor had to wrestle Dake. Askren was really, really good. An Askren vs. Taylor debate could be fun. Purdue guy (Lange I think) and Bubba cancel each other out and you're left with Pendleton/Dake. Askren was a bad man and he did dominate in a different way than Taylor does. Plus Askren made an Olympic team. I don't see Taylor making an Olympic team but only time will tell on that, no point arguing it now.

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For what it's worth Ben Askren only lost to two guys. He just had to wrestle Pendleton more times than Taylor had to wrestle Dake. Askren was really, really good. An Askren vs. Taylor debate could be fun. Purdue guy (Lange I think) and Bubba cancel each other out and you're left with Pendleton/Dake. Askren was a bad man and he did dominate in a different way than Taylor does. Plus Askren made an Olympic team. I don't see Taylor making an Olympic team but only time will tell on that, no point arguing it now.

 

I wonder if all the Taylor Fans that still think he is better than Dake also would also argue that Ben Askren was better than Chris Pendleton?

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Longshot-You can paint it anyway you want man. He's Varner, Askren, Mocco, etc. if he wins next year. That's not to get under anyone's skin, as a matter of fact it only would get under your skin if you expected more of DT, which was my question. I've said twice I think the Varner, Askren, Mocco club is pretty impressive but no matter how you paint him he's not better than that. Mokoma said that's about what he expected from DT, I wonder if that's about what all PSU guys had him winning? By the talk from some guys you'd think more than two was expected, but maybe not. Two titles and four final appearances is really good, only 13 dudes in that club right? Pretty good. Kyle Dake, however, is in a whole different category of special and I'm glad I got to see all 4.

 

ok fair enough i got the impression some were trying to say he's "only" going to be a 2x champ. I would venture to say that if he ends next year with a season like last year he'll be considered the best 2x champ ever. Outside of his two final losses who is the last wrestler to dominate like him? hint: rhymes with hail, pail and mail.

 

To be honest, David Taylor's winning percentage will barely be in the top 5 of wrestlers winning "only 2 titles." I would not consider David to be the best 2 timer if he wins next year. (It will not surprise me if he only wins 1 title, and even at that point I would probably not call him the best ever of that bunch.)

Actually, it's already mathematically impossible for Taylor to make the top 5 in winning percentage of wrestlers with two titles. He could, however, make the top 10 on such a list.

 

He also has the opportunity to end his career on the Top 25 Win Pct. for NCAA Champions list, but he'll have to run the table to do it. If so, he'll be the only wrestler with 3 losses on that list. Currently, there's only one guy with 2 losses on the list, Rick Sanders. There are 14 guys with 1 career loss and 10 with no losses.

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Metcalf.

 

2x champ, career record 108-3? Sounds like DT to me.

 

Oddly, no hurt, Caldwell and Metcalf would be a 1xr

 

Even if we all just agree with your magical (and oft-repeated for no real reason) premise that Caldwell would automatically have beaten Metcalf again, Caldwell had said he was taking a redshirt before he hurt himself.

 

Well I'm glad you agree, in that Caldwell was better than Metcalf at that point he is officially 2-0, against Metcalf, that's why I repeat, 1 pin and almost major. Yes he was rs to train OC. Because he also made the world team that year and Metcalf didn't, thanks, for reminding me, it's lots of reason why Caldwell was likely to beat Metcalf again, aside from history and seemingly surpassing him.

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For what it's worth Ben Askren only lost to two guys. He just had to wrestle Pendleton more times than Taylor had to wrestle Dake. Askren was really, really good. An Askren vs. Taylor debate could be fun. Purdue guy (Lange I think) and Bubba cancel each other out and you're left with Pendleton/Dake. Askren was a bad man and he did dominate in a different way than Taylor does. Plus Askren made an Olympic team. I don't see Taylor making an Olympic team but only time will tell on that, no point arguing it now.

 

I wonder if all the Taylor Fans that still think he is better than Dake also would also argue that Ben Askren was better than Chris Pendleton?

The difference is that they were 2 years apart. Only an idiot would argue senior Pendleton was better than senior Askren.

 

Sure Pendleton was better when they wrestled in college, but who doesn't think that senior Taylor wouldn't have beaten sophomore Dake?

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It's completely possible that Pendleton was just a bad matchup for Askren regardless of when they met. Senior Pendleton dominated his final more than senior Askren did. Some of this talk is starting to feel like time travel discussion. I guess its how you view the losses. I happen to think that the Bubba win over Taylor was not only the worst matchup Taylor could have been given but also a fluke. Don't feel like going down that road again here but Askren's losses were worse than Taylor's losses. He also had more losses than Taylor and we don't know that given more matches with Dake he would necessarily have more losses to him just in how close their matches were. Pendleton handled Askren.

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It's completely possible that Pendleton was just a bad matchup for Askren regardless of when they met. Senior Pendleton dominated his final more than senior Askren did. Some of this talk is starting to feel like time travel discussion. I guess its how you view the losses. I happen to think that the Bubba win over Taylor was not only the worst matchup Taylor could have been given but also a fluke. Don't feel like going down that road again here but Askren's losses were worse than Taylor's losses. He also had more losses than Taylor and we don't know that given more matches with Dake he would necessarily have more losses to him just in how close their matches were. Pendleton handled Askren.

Okay then, maybe Dake is just a bad matchup for Taylor? I mean after all Taylor pins people in under 0:30 seconds that Dake only beats by regular decision.

 

Bubba's match may have been a bad matchup for Taylor but let's be honest, he was decked! It was not a fluke and he still would have been down by 5 and lost the match regardless. If you are calling the cradle a fluke then I don't know what to tell you.

 

How is getting pinned (and beaten another time) by a 1 time champ worse then getting beat several times by a two time champ but also winning 1 matchup?

 

Senior Pendleton won by 7, senior Askren by 6. I would hardly call that dominated more.

 

But Askren does have a W from Pendleton, something Taylor does not have with Dake.

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For what it's worth Ben Askren only lost to two guys. He just had to wrestle Pendleton more times than Taylor had to wrestle Dake. Askren was really, really good. An Askren vs. Taylor debate could be fun. Purdue guy (Lange I think) and Bubba cancel each other out and you're left with Pendleton/Dake. Askren was a bad man and he did dominate in a different way than Taylor does. Plus Askren made an Olympic team. I don't see Taylor making an Olympic team but only time will tell on that, no point arguing it now.

 

I wonder if all the Taylor Fans that still think he is better than Dake also would also argue that Ben Askren was better than Chris Pendleton?

The difference is that they were 2 years apart. Only an idiot would argue senior Pendleton was better than senior Askren.

 

Sure Pendleton was better when they wrestled in college, but who doesn't think that senior Taylor wouldn't have beaten sophomore Dake?

 

I'm no idiot, (at least I don't think so :D ) but I think senior Pendleton would still beat senior Askren. Style clash.

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It's completely possible that Pendleton was just a bad matchup for Askren regardless of when they met. Senior Pendleton dominated his final more than senior Askren did. Some of this talk is starting to feel like time travel discussion. I guess its how you view the losses. I happen to think that the Bubba win over Taylor was not only the worst matchup Taylor could have been given but also a fluke. Don't feel like going down that road again here but Askren's losses were worse than Taylor's losses. He also had more losses than Taylor and we don't know that given more matches with Dake he would necessarily have more losses to him just in how close their matches were. Pendleton handled Askren.

Okay then, maybe Dake is just a bad matchup for Taylor? I mean after all Taylor pins people in under 0:30 seconds that Dake only beats by regular decision.

 

Bubba's match may have been a bad matchup for Taylor but let's be honest, he was decked! It was not a fluke and he still would have been down by 5 and lost the match regardless. If you are calling the cradle a fluke then I don't know what to tell you.

 

How is getting pinned (and beaten another time) by a 1 time champ worse then getting beat several times by a two time champ but also winning 1 matchup?

 

Senior Pendleton won by 7, senior Askren by 6. I would hardly call that dominated more.

 

But Askren does have a W from Pendleton, something Taylor does not have with Dake.

 

When I say a fluke I more mean that I think Taylor wins that matchup more than he loses it. But I know that isn't a popular stance. Let's put it this way. All of DT's losses are to NCAA champs. Not true of Askren. Gavin gave Askren a better match than Askren gave Pendleton IMO. But I digress. I would rank Askren's career over Pendleton and DT's over Askren. Of course this is pending what happens next year.

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Metcalf.

 

2x champ, career record 108-3? Sounds like DT to me.

 

Oddly, no hurt, Caldwell and Metcalf would be a 1xr

 

Even if we all just agree with your magical (and oft-repeated for no real reason) premise that Caldwell would automatically have beaten Metcalf again, Caldwell had said he was taking a redshirt before he hurt himself.

 

Well I'm glad you agree, in that Caldwell was better than Metcalf at that point he is officially 2-0, against Metcalf, that's why I repeat, 1 pin and almost major. Yes he was rs to train OC. Because he also made the world team that year and Metcalf didn't, thanks, for reminding me, it's lots of reason why Caldwell was likely to beat Metcalf again, aside from history and seemingly surpassing him.

 

I didn't agree with you. I said that your assertion was inconsequential. ANd blablahblah "official and blahblahblah "almost major". And Caldwell did not make the World Team any more than Metcalf made the Olympic team last year. HE got to travel as a training partner.

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Wow, I am shocked at people being a little dismissive of Pendleton. Do you guys realize that he took 2nd in the Olympic qualifier.....all the way up at 211? He beat Kilgore and JD Bergman and placed ahead of Zabriskie...a former NCAA champ at HEavyweight. I am not sure how I feel on Askren v Taylor, but Pendleton was an animal.

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Not to mention the fact that Pendleton beat Askren again at the Sunkist Open a few years ago. At some point "having a guy's number" can simply be called "straight up better than". Pendleton was a terror for two straight years and was definitely better than Askren....just not a pinner the way Askren was. Askren was great, and his improvement at freestyle was noteworthy, but lets not exaggerate his 1-1 performance at the Olympics for something it wasn't. Promising....yes. Impressive......no. Burroughs was impressive. Askren needed more work. But that being said, David Taylor still has his work cut out for him to match Ben Askrens college career. At this point it seems likely, but there's no reason thus far to elevate Taylor's performance over any of the other two time champs four time finalists out there.

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