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superold

Is Dake better than Taylor?

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There's no doubt that it's a personal pain in Cael's gut when Taylor lost to Bubba and each time to Dake. There's also no doubt that Cael hates to lose a team title more than he wants to win. We saw him picking up Ruth after his major decision that assured a share of the team title and we saw pure jubilation in the interview after Wright secured the team win. After that you saw the disappointment after Taylor's loss. Clearly he cares about each individual, and clearly he wants the team to be successful. The truth is I have no idea if Cael would have preferred a team title over a Taylor decision over Dake but I'm sure he was happy with Taylor's 24 team points despite his disappointing loss. If you're going to lose, or can't win it all, at least win something which Taylor did. A strong contribution toward the overall team win, and the Gorriaran trophy for most falls in the shortest amount of time. We all know what happened. Dake's defense, physical strength, and superb fundamentals diffused Taylor's offense which has served him well with everyone, but Dake.

 

So, to answer Superold's question, Dake is better than Taylor, but the answer is not quite that simple. It's a little like rock, scissors, paper where rock is better than scissors, but paper is better than rock, and scissors is better than paper. I don't think there is ever a day when Taylor doesn't major decision a guy like Donnie Vinson (Binghamton), or Kevin Levalle (Bucknell) two guys that Dake lost to (no disrespect to either of those two warriors). Dake is impressive with his consistency to win no matter what even if it means a 3-0 decision in the first round against Mark Martin, a guy that Taylor teched and pinned within the previous month.

 

I'm sure the reason why this topic exists is we all know Dake was not far from winning his match with Taylor 5-2 which would have been the same margin of victory as his 3-0 victory in the first round over Mark Martin of tOSU. The point is, they are completely different wrestlers. Dake is the Rock, Taylor is the Paper and the Scissors, yet Dake found a way to crush them both. Dake wins. Dake is better.

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I have to admit, The case for Taylor is pretty strong. Which one is better? It's too close to call.

 

Except for Dake beating Taylor head to head every time they have wrestled in college. Which is a pretty huge thing to just gloss over.

 

Yes agreed, i can't seem to gloss over it either. The head to heads have to count for something, regardless of additional evidence suggesting otherwise.

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There are really 2 questions in one in this:

Is Dake better than Taylor, head to head?

If you were making a team from scratch and got to pick/draft who you wanted, would you pick Dake over Taylor?

 

The answer to the first question is really not debatable now. It was at the beginning of the season, but 3 for 3 in folk is beyond a reasonable doubt.

The second question however is debatable even now. According to the NCAA team scoring, Taylor was more valuable due to his bonus points than Dake with the higher placement points. Personally, if I were making a team from scratch I would take Taylor, but I could not fault anyone for picking Dake instead.

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What evidence exists that Taylor is better. He's not, no evidence. Oh wait, he had fewer losses ... well now they are even.

Taylor scored 24 team points to Dake's 22, despite Dake's "fewer losses". What are you not comprehending about the posts? No one is arguing who wins the head to head matchup. When you compare results from same opponents like Martin from tOSU Taylor scores many more bonus points over Martin where Dake scrapes by with a 3-0 victory in the first round.

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What evidence exists that Taylor is better. He's not, no evidence. Oh wait, he had fewer losses ... well now they are even.

Taylor scored 24 team points to Dake's 22, despite Dake's "fewer losses". What are you not comprehending about the posts? No one is arguing who wins the head to head matchup. When you compare results from same opponents like Martin from tOSU Taylor scores many more bonus points over Martin where Dake scrapes by with a 3-0 victory in the first round.

 

Your point is one of the MAJOR reasons why a Dual meet format for determining the NCAA Team Championship will continue to be argued for over the current system. The CLEARLY 2nd best guy outscored the guy who took 1st. I have a hard time with this being possible. I understand why the current system makes it possible I just am not convinced it SHOULD be possible. An individual tournament format deciding an overall team championship is very fuzzy to me. Being from Michigan, I was 4 years old when Michigan switched to Team dual championships. The individual tournament is still an amazing event without deciding the Team race. I do NOT want the NCAA individual tournament to suffer by adding a SANCTIONED Dual Team Championship. However, I think a team with the best guy at the weight should not be outscored by the 2nd best guy he beats EVERY time. At the very least in a dual meet format this would NOT happen.

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An argument could be made that Taylor's offense is better than Dake's due to Taylor's ability to score with ease and rack up points from every position on nearly everyone. True, Taylor dismantles opponents, Dake completely dominates opponents from every position without racking up the points. Both are equally impressive (to me).

 

However, the crux of the argument before this season as to which of these two champions was better came to this: Is Taylor's offense better than Dake's defense? People that believed Taylor would win in a head-to-head pointed to his incredible, dominating, offense. People that believed Dake would win pointed to his incredible, dominating defense.

 

After 3 head-to-head matches in folkstyle, I, for one, think the answer is clear - Dake's defense is better than Taylor's offense. Dake shut down Taylor's offense and won - 3 times. Even if you believe Taylor's offense is better and that Taylor is more technically proficient, and that Taylor is better at takedowns and tilts and reversals, he is still 0-3 against Dake. The fact that Taylor has the ability to beat everyone by a larger margin does not equate to "he is better than the person that beat him 3 straight times." I always thought the better wrestler was the one that walked off the mat with his hand raised every time they wrestled. Dake's ability to shut down Taylor's offense every time they wrestled and walk off the mat with his hand raised should be pretty clear evidence that Dake is better.

 

And, as a sidenote, Dake adjusted and improved against Taylor each time (OT victory ---> 1 point "controversial" victory with Taylor at :59 RT ---> 1 point clear victory with RT advantage). Dake even adjusted and changed up his handfighting each time. There is no question anymore - Dake is better than Taylor.

 

To those that say Dake is simply a bad matchup for Taylor - I agree. Dake has the ability to shut out Taylor's offense, and Dake has the ability to score on Taylor from every position. And Dake has the ability to score more points than Taylor in three head-to-head matchups. Dake is a bad matchup for Taylor.

 

Also, Dake finished his last three years in the NCAA tourney without a single point scored against him, except Taylor. Repeat - Taylor was the only person to score a single point against Dake in three years in the NCAA tourney (Molinaro "earned" a penalty against Dake, DSJ "earned" a stalling point).

 

And, as to bonus points - in this year's NCAA, Taylor pinned all four of his opponent's in route to the finals. Impressive. But, even with that, only outscored Dake by 2 points. Last year, Dake pinned 3 of 4 opponents in route to the finals . This year, Dake had more pins and more majors than Taylor, and won most of his matches by bonus points. So Dake is not exactly a slouch when it comes to bonus.

 

Finally, for those of you that want to point to number of losses and number of people Dake lost to as evidence that Taylor is better are minimizing the head-to-head match-ups and Dake's ability to win on the big stage. Fact: Dake lost 4 times in his career - all to AAs, and never lost to the same person twice. Oh, and he won 4 straight NCAA titles.

 

Would I pick Dake over Taylor? Absolutely.

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When you compare results from same opponents like Martin from tOSU Taylor scores many more bonus points over Martin where Dake scrapes by with a 3-0 victory in the first round.

It's not like Dake struggles in those matches. He's dominant and never in danger of losing even in 1-0 wins. Also,while he doesn't pile up points, he had more pins than anyone else in college this season.

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fla, stop making too much sense. Shame on you for trying to reason. Clearly, Taylor is better, as the following logical sequence is testament:

 

EVENT: 2012 Olympic trials

RESULT: Dake WBF Taylor

CONCLUSION: Taylor will kill Dake in folkstyle

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: Taylor was clearly not himself that day. He was sick, likely injured too, and certainly out of it psychologically, probably all three. No, definitely all three. Also, freestyle results don't ever count as an assessment of wrestling ability. Freestyle is absolutely nothing like folkstyle, absolutely nothing, ne'er the twain shall be compared.

 

EVENT: 2012 NWCA All-Star Dual

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 2-1 (OT)

CONCLUSION: Taylor will kill Dake when it counts, scoring multiple TDs when he opens up

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: All-Stars aren't official matches. Taylor wasn't even ready, as evidenced by his lethargic pace and inability to take a solid shot in regulation. He didn't want to show Dake too much since this one didn't count, and he was saving himself for when it counts (obviously). Dake is a staller anyway, so that makes each close win of his actually a loss; ergo, Taylor is better.

 

EVENT: 2013 Southern Scuffle

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 3-2

CONCLUSION: Taylor won, but the refs had a thing for Dake and gave him the win

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: The reversal, which was verified by not one but two different video angles in post-event footage made publicly available through Flowrestling, was not really a reversal because it was a close call. Any close call that is correctly called against Dake is not actually close, it's actually wrong. Also, let's make another thing clear: when Dake rides the crap out of Taylor, it is stalling, but when Taylor rides Dake, even if it's for under a minute, it's a clear sign of superiority because, you know, Taylor is not supposed to be able to ride Dake.

 

EVENT: 2013 Division 1 NCAA Championships

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 5-4

CONCLUSION: Taylor is just better than Dake.

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: Because, just because. You want a real reason? OK, Taylor is better because he scored more points for his team and his own coach would pick him over Dake. Wait, no, Taylor is better because he has the ability to rape lesser wrestlers, which offsets his inability to beat Dake no matter how many times he tries. Wait, no, winning by one point isn't really winning, is it? I mean, who wins by just one point, come on! Winning by one point is basically the same as losing by one point. Even if Dake won 11,974 times by one point, it's still one point, so that makes Taylor equal to Dake in skill. And then, when you factor in the team points and the ability to rape lesser wrestlers, the answer is clear: Taylor is better.

 

What a joke.

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This board holds two things sacrosanct: Taylor is better than Dake, and anything non-positive said about Iowa Wrestlers/Fans/Coaches are totally wrong and are only said because you are a doo-doo head. Facts and results have no bearing.

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This Dake v. Taylor argument reminds me of my son.

 

He's been told that left-handers are good at sports. He's left-handed, so he uses this logic to explain to everyone why he's good at sports. The fact that he's actually bad at sports is only one of many factors he considers when analyzing whether he's good at sports.

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fla, stop making too much sense. Shame on you for trying to reason. Clearly, Taylor is better, as the following logical sequence is testament:

 

EVENT: 2012 Olympic trials

RESULT: Dake WBF Taylor

CONCLUSION: Taylor will kill Dake in folkstyle

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: Taylor was clearly not himself that day. He was sick, likely injured too, and certainly out of it psychologically, probably all three. No, definitely all three. Also, freestyle results don't ever count as an assessment of wrestling ability. Freestyle is absolutely nothing like folkstyle, absolutely nothing, ne'er the twain shall be compared.

 

EVENT: 2012 NWCA All-Star Dual

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 2-1 (OT)

CONCLUSION: Taylor will kill Dake when it counts, scoring multiple TDs when he opens up

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: All-Stars aren't official matches. Taylor wasn't even ready, as evidenced by his lethargic pace and inability to take a solid shot in regulation. He didn't want to show Dake too much since this one didn't count, and he was saving himself for when it counts (obviously). Dake is a staller anyway, so that makes each close win of his actually a loss; ergo, Taylor is better.

 

EVENT: 2013 Southern Scuffle

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 3-2

CONCLUSION: Taylor won, but the refs had a thing for Dake and gave him the win

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: The reversal, which was verified by not one but two different video angles in post-event footage made publicly available through Flowrestling, was not really a reversal because it was a close call. Any close call that is correctly called against Dake is not actually close, it's actually wrong. Also, let's make another thing clear: when Dake rides the crap out of Taylor, it is stalling, but when Taylor rides Dake, even if it's for under a minute, it's a clear sign of superiority because, you know, Taylor is not supposed to be able to ride Dake.

 

EVENT: 2013 Division 1 NCAA Championships

RESULT: Dake dec. Taylor 5-4

CONCLUSION: Taylor is just better than Dake.

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT: Because, just because. You want a real reason? OK, Taylor is better because he scored more points for his team and his own coach would pick him over Dake. Wait, no, Taylor is better because he has the ability to rape lesser wrestlers, which offsets his inability to beat Dake no matter how many times he tries. Wait, no, winning by one point isn't really winning, is it? I mean, who wins by just one point, come on! Winning by one point is basically the same as losing by one point. Even if Dake won 11,974 times by one point, it's still one point, so that makes Taylor equal to Dake in skill. And then, when you factor in the team points and the ability to rape lesser wrestlers, the answer is clear: Taylor is better.

 

What a joke.

 

 

Persuasive, IMO.

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According to the NCAA "most dominant" stat, for the entire season, Dake scored more bonus points than Taylor. This is due to Dake's 18 pins, much more than Taylor, even with DT's four pins in the tournament.

 

DT scored a ton in the tournament b/c the tourney scoring favors pins (3 point vs 1 for a win) more than dual meet scoring. Overall, at least this year, Dake was the better point scorer.

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Would Taylor fans argue that Larry Owings was a better wrestler than Gable?

 

He actually has a win against him and Gable had a win against him in freestyle (which we know only counts when it helps your argument)

 

Also, factor in that Owings was cutting something like 40 pounds.

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