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Is Dake better than Taylor?

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But Askren does have a W from Pendleton, something Taylor does not have with Dake.

Come on, man! Take that back!

 

I do not believe they wrestled each other in Fargo where the pic originated. I thought Dake finished 3rd never having seen Taylor.............if memory serves correct.

You are indeed correct...I was just trying to sneak one by Mokoma. :) If you look at the bottom of that photo, you can see that Dake's step on the podium is marked # 3 - just where you recall him placing.

 

I wonder who knocked Dake out of that tourney...and if he claims he defeated a 4x NCAA champion?????

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I do not believe they wrestled each other in Fargo where the pic originated. I thought Dake finished 3rd never having seen Taylor.............if memory serves correct.

You are indeed correct...I was just trying to sneak one by Mokoma. :) If you look at the bottom of that photo, you can see that Dake's step on the podium is marked # 3 - just where you recall him placing.

 

I wonder who knocked Dake out of that tourney...and if he claims he defeated a 4x NCAA champion?????

Actually, some quick research shows that Dake and Taylor met in both Freestyle and Greco that year. Taylor won 0-8, 4-0, 6-3 in Greco and by injury default in Freestyle. Taylor won both tournaments and Dake got third in both.

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Actually, some quick research shows that Dake and Taylor met in both Freestyle and Greco that year. Taylor won 0-8, 4-0, 6-3 in Greco and by injury default in Freestyle. Taylor won both tournaments and Dake got third in both.

 

See, proof that Taylor is better!

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Actually, some quick research shows that Dake and Taylor met in both Freestyle and Greco that year. Taylor won 0-8, 4-0, 6-3 in Greco and by injury default in Freestyle. Taylor won both tournaments and Dake got third in both.

 

See, proof that Taylor is better!

Was that ever in doubt? :lol:

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... I just typed out everything below and at the last second realized that Dake did stick Taylor with a cradle at the olympic team trials. :oops: ... just seconds before I hit SUBMIT.

 

 

I wanted to convey my thoughts on the Bubba pinning Taylor and why I believe it was a "fluke". If we compare Dake to Bubba, I think we can all agree that Dake takes that fantasy matchup with ease. If we look at Taylor's matchups with Dake, a far superior wrestler to Bubba, Taylor is losing by slim margins and not getting stuck like a fish.

 

I can argue against myself and say that when Taylor wrestled Dake he was 2.5 seasons into his college career and probably a much better and wiser wrestler.

 

BUT, if Taylor was susceptible to getting stuck by a cradle from any strong wrestler, and this was not a fluke, we would have seen such an outcome in the Dake-Taylor bouts.

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I just watched both matches again. They happened the same way. Taylor gets in on a leg with a great shot, then gives up a cradle. I guess he has gotten this worked out since it hasn't happened again. :|

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Dake > Taylor > Bubba J

 

 

Delusion, considering the result when the chips were down.

 

So wait...you think Bubba Jenkins is over-all better than David Taylor based on the fact that he beat him when he was a RS Senior and Taylor was a RS Freshman?

 

Compare their career statistics and re-think your use of the word "delusion"...

 

By that logic you must also agree that Cyler Sanderson > David Taylor.

 

Honestly, be serious.

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Dake > Taylor > Bubba J

 

 

Delusion, considering the result when the chips were down.

 

So wait...you think Bubba Jenkins is over-all better than David Taylor based on the fact that he beat him when he was a RS Senior and Taylor was a RS Freshman?

 

Compare their career statistics and re-think your use of the word "delusion"...

 

By that logic you must also agree that Cyler Sanderson > David Taylor.

 

Honestly, be serious.

 

 

PA-FAN, I believe you were one of the reasons that inspired me to start this topic. I'd like to see where you stand on this question today. So, Is Dake better than Taylor?

 

To partially insert myself into the above discussion, I believe that Sr Jenkins would beat Jr Taylor.

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PA-FAN, I believe you were one of the reasons that inspired me to start this topic. I'd like to see where you stand on this question today. So, Is Dake better than Taylor?

 

To partially insert myself into the above discussion, I believe that Sr Jenkins would beat Jr Taylor.

 

Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes.

 

Is Senior Bubba Jenkins beating Junior David Taylor? Yeaaa...no.

 

What exactly makes you think that Senior Bubba, who lost to Adam Hall that same year (one of his 3 losses) and was wrestling in a deadlock with freshman Taylor until that cradle, would beat David Taylor from last year, who absolutely demolished everybody except Kyle Dake - whom he lost 2 decisions to? Honestly, I think most people would say that David Taylor as a Junior would not lose to Bubba Jenkins as a Senior. I'd take it a step further and say that I think Taylor as a Freshman doesn't lose the majority of the matches with Jenkins if he doesn't get pinned - but that is a different argument all together.

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PA-FAN, I believe you were one of the reasons that inspired me to start this topic. I'd like to see where you stand on this question today. So, Is Dake better than Taylor?

 

To partially insert myself into the above discussion, I believe that Sr Jenkins would beat Jr Taylor.

 

Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes.

 

Is Senior Bubba Jenkins beating Junior David Taylor? Yeaaa...no.

 

What exactly makes you think that Senior Bubba, who lost to Adam Hall that same year (one of his 3 losses) and was wrestling in a deadlock with freshman Taylor until that cradle, would beat David Taylor from last year, who absolutely demolished everybody except Kyle Dake - whom he lost 2 decisions to? Honestly, I think most people would say that David Taylor as a Junior would not lose to Bubba Jenkins as a Senior. I'd take it a step further and say that I think Taylor as a Freshman doesn't lose the majority of the matches with Jenkins if he doesn't get pinned - but that is a different argument all together.

 

Well, all those things were true of Jenkins when he beat Taylor in the ncaa finals. Meaning, he lost to Hall and a few others before he beat David Taylor. Also, Taylor "abosulely demolished" nearly everyone as a RS freshman as well before his loss to Jenkins. Imo, matches against other wrestlers don't come into play when evaluating Jenkins/Taylor. I'd rather go by what I saw and know, and I know that Jenkins is 2-0 vs David Taylor head to head.

 

I'm not convinced that Taylor could generate any offense against Jenkins. Taylor usually runs through wrestlers, but against Jenkins he's not able to wrestle at that same pace. I believe this is due to both Jenkins being an elite talent of the same caliber as Taylor (maybe even higher) and due to the familiarity they have with eachother being on the same team for an entire year. Because of this, I believe the match essentially turns into a "one takedown" match, where one explosive move from neutral will secure the win (I don't believe there would be any RT/BP for either wrestler). And I do believe that Jenkins is more explosive than Taylor. This type of match really caters to Jenkins' strengths imo, as a matter of fact, I think Jenkins would beat the majority of current and past ncaa champs in that type of match. I think many forget how talented Jenkins is and how dangerous he could be in that situation. Combine that with the fact that Jenkins has a little extra motivation to beat Taylor (to "hurt" Cael) and the "big brother" factor on his side, and I see Jenkins beating Taylor again.

 

For the record, I'm imagining this hypothetical matchup takes place in the ncaa final, not an early season dual meet.

 

 

[

i]Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes. [/i]

 

When you say "better", are you saying something more than what you were saying in this thread http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/view ... 0&start=75

 

At the time I thought that was a very qualified admission of "better". And what exactly do you mean when you say Taylor "could" beat Dake?

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PA-FAN, I believe you were one of the reasons that inspired me to start this topic. I'd like to see where you stand on this question today. So, Is Dake better than Taylor?

 

To partially insert myself into the above discussion, I believe that Sr Jenkins would beat Jr Taylor.

 

Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes.

 

Is Senior Bubba Jenkins beating Junior David Taylor? Yeaaa...no.

 

What exactly makes you think that Senior Bubba, who lost to Adam Hall that same year (one of his 3 losses) and was wrestling in a deadlock with freshman Taylor until that cradle, would beat David Taylor from last year, who absolutely demolished everybody except Kyle Dake - whom he lost 2 decisions to? Honestly, I think most people would say that David Taylor as a Junior would not lose to Bubba Jenkins as a Senior. I'd take it a step further and say that I think Taylor as a Freshman doesn't lose the majority of the matches with Jenkins if he doesn't get pinned - but that is a different argument all together.

 

Well, all those things were true of Jenkins when he beat Taylor in the ncaa finals. Meaning, he lost to Hall and a few others before he beat David Taylor. Also, Taylor "abosulely demolished" nearly everyone as a RS freshman as well before his loss to Jenkins. Imo, matches against other wrestlers don't come into play when evaluating Jenkins/Taylor. I'd rather go by what I saw and know, and I know that Jenkins is 2-0 vs David Taylor head to head.

 

I'm not convinced that Taylor could generate any offense against Jenkins. Taylor usually runs through wrestlers, but against Jenkins he's not able to wrestle at that same pace. I believe this is due to both Jenkins being an elite talent of the same caliber as Taylor (maybe even higher) and due to the familiarity they have with eachother being on the same team for an entire year. Because of this, I believe the match essentially turns into a "one takedown" match, where one explosive move from neutral will secure the win (I don't believe there would be any RT/BP for either wrestler). And I do believe that Jenkins is more explosive than Taylor. This type of match really caters to Jenkins' strengths imo, as a matter of fact, I think Jenkins would beat the majority of current and past ncaa champs in that type of match. I think many forget how talented Jenkins is and how dangerous he could be in that situation. Combine that with the fact that Jenkins has a little extra motivation to beat Taylor (to "hurt" Cael) and the "big brother" factor on his side, and I see Jenkins beating Taylor again.

 

For the record, I'm imagining this hypothetical matchup takes place in the ncaa final, not an early season dual meet.

 

 

[

i]Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes. [/i]

 

When you say "better", are you saying something more than what you were saying in this thread http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/view ... 0&start=75

 

At the time I thought that was a very qualified admission of "better". And what exactly do you mean when you say Taylor "could" beat Dake?

 

I still hold the exact same opinion as I did in that thread. Dake is "better", yes. They are on the same level - just as a head to head match up Dake is better, obviously.

 

As for the Jenkins vs. Taylor stuff - I mean really, get serious.

 

You say "matches against other wrestlers don't come into play when evaluating Jenkins/Taylor. I'd rather go by what I saw and know, and I know that Jenkins is 2-0 vs David Taylor head to head."

 

Ill use the same rebuttal as I did to the first guy - you must also believe Cyler Sanderson is better than Taylor. After all, he is 2-0 against Taylor...and if matches with other opponents don't matter...then he obviously must be in the same boat vs. Taylor as Bubba.

 

You are downplaying the level of David Taylor now with all of your analysis. It is all valid (although mostly based in opinion) concerning a rematch of Bubba vs. Taylor as a freshman....but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about David Taylor after his freshman year/sophomore year - you know after he won the Hodge in an undefeated NCAA championship season. Taylor as a freshman vs. Taylor as a junior are not the same wrestler...he was much improved (particularly in the strength department).

 

Point being - Bubba vs. Taylor (freshman) you can have...close 1 td match, fine. But when you move that to Bubba vs. Taylor (Junior)...no. Bubba is completely outclassed in every position.

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PA-FAN, I believe you were one of the reasons that inspired me to start this topic. I'd like to see where you stand on this question today. So, Is Dake better than Taylor?

 

To partially insert myself into the above discussion, I believe that Sr Jenkins would beat Jr Taylor.

 

Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes.

 

Is Senior Bubba Jenkins beating Junior David Taylor? Yeaaa...no.

 

What exactly makes you think that Senior Bubba, who lost to Adam Hall that same year (one of his 3 losses) and was wrestling in a deadlock with freshman Taylor until that cradle, would beat David Taylor from last year, who absolutely demolished everybody except Kyle Dake - whom he lost 2 decisions to? Honestly, I think most people would say that David Taylor as a Junior would not lose to Bubba Jenkins as a Senior. I'd take it a step further and say that I think Taylor as a Freshman doesn't lose the majority of the matches with Jenkins if he doesn't get pinned - but that is a different argument all together.

 

Well, all those things were true of Jenkins when he beat Taylor in the ncaa finals. Meaning, he lost to Hall and a few others before he beat David Taylor. Also, Taylor "abosulely demolished" nearly everyone as a RS freshman as well before his loss to Jenkins. Imo, matches against other wrestlers don't come into play when evaluating Jenkins/Taylor. I'd rather go by what I saw and know, and I know that Jenkins is 2-0 vs David Taylor head to head.

 

I'm not convinced that Taylor could generate any offense against Jenkins. Taylor usually runs through wrestlers, but against Jenkins he's not able to wrestle at that same pace. I believe this is due to both Jenkins being an elite talent of the same caliber as Taylor (maybe even higher) and due to the familiarity they have with eachother being on the same team for an entire year. Because of this, I believe the match essentially turns into a "one takedown" match, where one explosive move from neutral will secure the win (I don't believe there would be any RT/BP for either wrestler). And I do believe that Jenkins is more explosive than Taylor. This type of match really caters to Jenkins' strengths imo, as a matter of fact, I think Jenkins would beat the majority of current and past ncaa champs in that type of match. I think many forget how talented Jenkins is and how dangerous he could be in that situation. Combine that with the fact that Jenkins has a little extra motivation to beat Taylor (to "hurt" Cael) and the "big brother" factor on his side, and I see Jenkins beating Taylor again.

 

For the record, I'm imagining this hypothetical matchup takes place in the ncaa final, not an early season dual meet.

 

 

[

i]Yes he is better, obviously. Could Taylor beat him? Also yes. [/i]

 

When you say "better", are you saying something more than what you were saying in this thread http://www.thematforums.com/phpBB3/view ... 0&start=75

 

At the time I thought that was a very qualified admission of "better". And what exactly do you mean when you say Taylor "could" beat Dake?

 

I still hold the exact same opinion as I did in that thread. Dake is "better", yes. They are on the same level - just as a head to head match up Dake is better, obviously.

 

As for the Jenkins vs. Taylor stuff - I mean really, get serious.

 

You say "matches against other wrestlers don't come into play when evaluating Jenkins/Taylor. I'd rather go by what I saw and know, and I know that Jenkins is 2-0 vs David Taylor head to head."

 

Ill use the same rebuttal as I did to the first guy - you must also believe Cyler Sanderson is better than Taylor. After all, he is 2-0 against Taylor...and if matches with other opponents don't matter...then he obviously must be in the same boat vs. Taylor as Bubba.

 

You are downplaying the level of David Taylor now with all of your analysis. It is all valid (although mostly based in opinion) concerning a rematch of Bubba vs. Taylor as a freshman....but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about David Taylor after his freshman year/sophomore year - you know after he won the Hodge in an undefeated NCAA championship season. Taylor as a freshman vs. Taylor as a junior are not the same wrestler...he was much improved (particularly in the strength department).

 

Point being - Bubba vs. Taylor (freshman) you can have...close 1 td match, fine. But when you move that to Bubba vs. Taylor (Junior)...no. Bubba is completely outclassed in every position.

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PA-Fan....please remove the blue-tinted glasses and examine the results. Head to Head, Jenkins IS the Master.

 

And he will be until Taylor evens the score(s).

 

Taylor, as excellent as he is, has one big quality win that I can think of since entering college ( two if you count Fittery) , and that's over the oft-badly injured Andrew Howe in freestyle. We'll see if he can continue that run up at 174, IF he goes up to meet Andrew. In the meantime, he hasn't passed as many tests as you give him credit for, let alone surpassing Bubba. If Bubba kept wrestling, I suppose that Taylor would defeat him at some point. But let it be known, when the bullet hit the bone, Bubba took the risk and went to his own back to secure the back points and fall. Taylor had his butt up and his head down, interesting mistake for someone as well schooled.

 

You are posturing that Taylor would beat Bubba as a junior......well, maybe I would have stuck Fadzaev had I made the World Team...blah blah blah

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PA-Fan....please remove the blue-tinted glasses and examine the results. Head to Head, Jenkins IS the Master.

 

And he will be until Taylor evens the score(s).

 

Taylor, as excellent as he is, has one big quality win that I can think of since entering college ( two if you count Fittery) , and that's over the oft-badly injured Andrew Howe in freestyle. We'll see if he can continue that run up at 174, IF he goes up to meet Andrew. In the meantime, he hasn't passed as many tests as you give him credit for, let alone surpassing Bubba. If Bubba kept wrestling, I suppose that Taylor would defeat him at some point. But let it be known, when the bullet hit the bone, Bubba took the risk and went to his own back to secure the back points and fall. Taylor had his butt up and his head down, interesting mistake for someone as well schooled.

 

You are posturing that Taylor would beat Bubba as a junior......well, maybe I would have stuck Fadzaev had I made the World Team...blah blah blah

 

So...then you do think Cyler Sanderson is a better wrestler than David Taylor as well? Since he also is "the master" head to head vs Taylor, also when he was a senior and Taylor a freshman. ...

 

It's laughable that you put Bubba Jenkins as a better wrestler based on that result...and conveniently ignore the other factors. Factors such as: 101-3 career record (two losses to one of the best college wrestlers ever, in extremely close matches. Also, 3 is as many losses as Bubba had as a Senior) 3 Big 10 Titles, NCAA Title and 2 NCAA Runner ups, and a few Gregorian awards. You claim I am wearing "blue-tinted glasses"...I claim you are taking one piece of evidence and giving it all the weight.

 

If Bubba were able to wrestle an upperclassmen Taylor he'd be an underdog, and deservedly so. He is not as good a wrestler as Taylor, from any position, period.

 

"We'll see if he can continue that run up at 174, IF he goes up to meet Andrew. In the meantime, he hasn't passed as many tests as you give him credit for, let alone surpassing Bubba. "

 

A few things here. It is ridiculous that you are suggesting that Taylor is under some obligation to go up to 174, and if he doesn't he is somehow avoiding Howe, or avoiding tougher competition. If anything, Howe should be down at 165 before Taylor should be up at 174 - there is no reason for him to go up, for himself or his team (they do have a returning NCAA finalist at 174 you know). Secondly, He hasn't passed as many tests as I give him credit for? What tests do I give him credit for passing? The facts are right in the beginning of my post. He has wrestled and beat everyone put in front of him during his D-1 career, save for Bubba as a freshman, and Kyle Dake (another interesting side note: the old "oh he had weak competition, so his accomplishment is not as impressive" argument...it is as stupid and asinine here as it was when people kept throwing it at Kyle Dake in the last few years). Compare Taylor's resume to Bubba's career before you start talking about Taylor needing to "surpass Bubba" - that is ludicrous. He has nothing at all to surpass. He career vs. Bubba's is like comparing a mountain vs. an ant hill. Bubba has the head to head win in the NCAA finals, and he always will. But he is not the better wrestler, nor will he be remembered as such.

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I like how Dake is one of the best wrestlers ever in these discussions of Taylor's several losses, but in discussions of the best ever, Dake had a bunch of losses that drag him down.

 

Does anyone argue that he is not "ONE OF the best ever" in threads discussing "THE best ever"?

 

They are two totally different things you know...it is quite possible to be one of the best ever but not the best ever - which is where the majority put Dake.

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