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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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1 minute ago, Fletcher said:

Weigh-in timing rules are in place so they have enough time to finish weigh-ins and start the tourney. Cox being late did not delay the tourney start - in fact, they weighed him in anyways. They knew Cox was close by because he already weighed in. To apply "rules" dogmatically and without context is dumb.

People aren't answering your question because it's a trap. Context matters. If Snyder was 20 minutes late and it was because the facility accidentally locked all its doors, I would let him weigh in. If it was because he was smoking crack outside in the alley, I would not.

what if just weed or if only vaping?

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Just now, nom said:

It is also about fairness.  If we expect all the wrestlers to follow the rules, and one wrestler does not follow a rule that is fundamental to the structure of the sport, but some 'group' says, 'that's ok  ... the rule can be bypassed for that person' . .........that it is not fair for all the other wrestlers.  

 

I think we would disagree that this rule is "fundamental to the structure of the sport."  Technically, if he were to make weight 1 minute before the start of his first match, how would the structure of the sport have been affected?

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Stunning news for sure.  But if you are going to the one of the most important tourney of your life, you be there an hour early and know what is going on.  Coaches screwed J'den but he is an adult and should know what is happening.  I feel bad for him after all this time of preparation, but just follow the rules and no one gets hurt.  Well, in this case, Cox got hurt and the tournament got hurt because his coaches "lost track of time".  Who does that? 

mspart

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2 minutes ago, nom said:

It is also about fairness.  If we expect all the wrestlers to follow the rules, and one wrestler does not follow a rule that is fundamental to the structure of the sport, but some 'group' says, 'that's ok  ... the rule can be bypassed for that person' . .........that it is not fair for all the other wrestlers.  

 

Exactly. And in future years the second someone was late to weigh ins you’d hear “well you let J’Den in 2021.” It’s not a precedent you want to set. 

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2 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Weigh-in timing rules are in place so they have enough time to finish weigh-ins and start the tourney. Cox being late did not delay the tourney start - in fact, they weighed him in anyways. They knew Cox was close by because he already weighed in. To apply "rules" dogmatically and without context is dumb.

People aren't answering your question because it's a trap. Context matters. If Snyder was 20 minutes late and it was because the facility accidentally locked all its doors, I would let him weigh in. If it was because he was smoking crack outside in the alley, I would not.

Agree, but I wouldn’t even call his question a trap. It’s just nonsensical. The rules would stay in place. Discretion would happen case by case, depending on the particular facts at hand, and would be non-precedential. 

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2 minutes ago, Katie said:

Everyone is cool with Cox getting a bye to the semis because he’s proven to be among the very best wrestlers in the world  

But when Cox makes weight a minute late, people think it would be an atrocity to let him compete.

Hmmm...

Uhh, both scenarios are specifically covered within the rules.

As is the appeal process.

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For the sake of clarity, do we know what we're talking about when everyone cites the "rules"? Are there USA wrestling bylaws governing weigh-in timing? Or is it more a matter of following directions emailed out a few days before the competition? I think the level of formality of the "rules" may impact how flexible USA wrestling can be with them.

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FYI there are several USA Olympic Sports where the representative isn't necessarily the top qualifier but is rather chosen by the respective committee.

Edited by DocBZ

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1 minute ago, Katie said:

Everyone is cool with Cox getting a bye to the semis because he’s proven to be among the very best wrestlers in the world  

But when Cox makes weight a minute late, people think it would be an atrocity to let him compete.

Hmmm...

No,  That's the rules in place.  Anybody that's advocating for following some rules, like you have to make weight, but not following others, like showing up for weigh-ins on time, is either playing devil's advocate, is an idiot, hates PSU or Snyder, is a Cox nut hugger, Mizzou fan/grad or just wants to pick and choose the rules to follow that best fit what they want in selfish.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

I think we would disagree that this rule is "fundamental to the structure of the sport."  Technically, if he were to make weight 1 minute before the start of his first match, how would the structure of the sport have been affected?

Thats a good question but it goes back to why we switch to 1 hour weighins and increased the weight classes in college due to the deaths in believe 80s.  International much later adjusted, safety issue.  

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I’m just curious for all the “bend the rules” folks. Would you feel differently if you knew J’Den was off weight and his coaches were trying to buy time for him to finish his cut? I’m truly curious. 

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1 minute ago, ionel said:

Thats a good question but it goes back to why we switch to 1 hour weighins and increased the weight classes in college due to the deaths in believe 80s.  International much later adjusted, safety issue.  

Sure.  I was just extrapolating to make a point.  Either way, it seems that we had a choice here:  what was the most important thing for USA wrestling to do here:  1. Adhere to the letter of the law, down to the minute weigh in rule, or 2. Try to make sure we got the best opportunity to figure out our absolute best Olympic team.

It may have been Snyder anyway.  I don't think there's anybody who thinks J'Den was a lock to beat Kyle.  But to eliminate the consideration for the purpose of just a couple of minutes (again, by rumor) seems short-sighted to me.

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7 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Weigh-in timing rules are in place so they have enough time to finish weigh-ins and start the tourney. Cox being late did not delay the tourney start - in fact, they weighed him in anyways. They knew Cox was close by because he already weighed in. To apply "rules" dogmatically and without context is dumb.

People aren't answering your question because it's a trap. Context matters. If Snyder was 20 minutes late and it was because the facility accidentally locked all its doors, I would let him weigh in. If it was because he was smoking crack outside in the alley, I would not.

We are not even looking at the fact that he has moved up a weight and is barely making the weight. I am not applying rules blindly but damned if he deserves extra time anymore than someone else deserves an extra tenth of a kilo. He showed up late, again assuming that's what happened, and that's it. Why are we not going to apply that rule the way it was written but make them weigh in exactly? Why not 97.1 kilos it's only a little bit over? What's the difference? BTW,  What's wrong with a little crack smoking outside? Just kidding

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9 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Here’s a real hypothetical for all the people saying bend the rules for J’Den. Lets say Snyder weighed in on time and missed weight by .1 pounds. J’Den weighs in 5 minutes late on weight. Should Snyder have that extra 5 minutes of time to get that .1 pounds off? You’re opening a big ole can of worms when you start bending rules. 

I was sitting on the fence until this post.

 

Now it’s up to someone else to convince me otherwise.  (Since I am in charge of the appeals process)

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Just now, madcat11 said:

I was sitting on the fence until this post.

 

Now it’s up to someone else to convince me otherwise.  (Since I am in charge of the appeals process)

I think there's a huge difference between the time component and the weight component.  We have proscribed weight classes, that IS a fundamental aspect of the sport.  The weigh in time is arbitrary.

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Just now, VakAttack said:

I think there's a huge difference between the time component and the weight component.  We have proscribed weight classes, that IS a fundamental aspect of the sport.  The weigh in time is arbitrary.

It' depends on the context, but usually, it's not. The weigh-in time determines amount of time wrestlers are given to recover from a cut. I know a minute or two of extra recovery time is truly inconsequential, but so is 0.1 lbs of weight advantage. I'm saying this while I am also wishing that Cox gets an opportunity to wrestle purely out of fandom and being fundamentally wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I think there's a huge difference between the time component and the weight component.  We have proscribed weight classes, that IS a fundamental aspect of the sport.  The weigh in time is arbitrary.

Would you feel differently if you knew J’Den needed the extra few minutes to cut the weight? That’s the question I can’t get answered. And my overarching point being, how are tournament organizers supposed to know what he’s doing?

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I think there's a huge difference between the time component and the weight component.  We have proscribed weight classes, that IS a fundamental aspect of the sport.  The weigh in time is arbitrary.

True, but it is the same for everyone.  Was anyone else late to weigh ins today?   If not, then the time for weigh ins is not the problem, being late is.  Again, biggest tourney the US has and you are late?  It is too bad for Cox but he was late, either because of him or his coaches, he was late.

I guess Madcat11 will have to make his call before the semi's are over, but the bracket has been adjusted so for an appeal to work, how will it be implemented if approved?

mspart

 

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7 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I’m just curious for all the “bend the rules” folks. Would you feel differently if you knew J’Den was off weight and his coaches were trying to buy time for him to finish his cut? I’m truly curious. 

It's not bending the rules - it's interpreting them. What if the final weigh-in time was poorly or incorrectly communicated to Cox? What if the scale guy's watch was off by a few minutes? These would be situations where you want flexibility to interpret the rules - which is different from bending/breaking the rules.

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5 minutes ago, madcat11 said:

I was sitting on the fence until this post.

 

Now it’s up to someone else to convince me otherwise.  (Since I am in charge of the appeals process)

 

6 minutes ago, madcat11 said:

I was sitting on the fence until this post.

 

Now it’s up to someone else to convince me otherwise.  (Since I am in charge of the appeals process)

Wait, I thought if you step on the scale and are overweight, but it's early, you can still make weight later (albeit if with the time deadline).

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5 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I think there's a huge difference between the time component and the weight component.  We have proscribed weight classes, that IS a fundamental aspect of the sport.  The weigh in time is arbitrary.

I get your point.  My language about a rule fundamental to the sport is too strong.  And him weighing in even later is just going to harm his own recovery.  It seems that the deadline for weigh ins is most relevant to the administration of the tournament itself.  

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1 minute ago, Fletcher said:

It's not bending the rules - it's interpreting them. What if the final weigh-in time was poorly or incorrectly communicated to Cox? What if the scale guy's watch was off by a few minutes? These would be situations where you want flexibility to interpret the rules - which is different from bending/breaking the rules.

So it was correctly communicated to over 100 other wrestlers that weighed in on time, but incorrectly communicated to 1 wrestler? If it happened to multiple wrestlers I could absolutely get behind that theory. But it didn’t. It happened to one wrestler and that’s where personal accountability comes into play. 

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3 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

I’m just curious for all the “bend the rules” folks. Would you feel differently if you knew J’Den was off weight and his coaches were trying to buy time for him to finish his cut? I’m truly curious. 

I'm not in the "bend the rules" camp. I'm in the "want to know the circumstances" camp. If he was one minute late, the coaches could not have possibly known he would need one extra minute in order to make it, so if there are no other extenuating circumstances (such as a miscommunication with organizers/officials), then it was just a time management issue (that followed a weight management issue that shouldn't have happened). If, let's say, he was on weight on a check scale, then stepped on the official scale a fraction of a pound over with 30 minutes to go and had to go find a place to run and work up a sweat and then make it back to the scale and get stripped down and was 60 seconds late, I'd probably lean towards bending the rules. But, these are hypothetical scenarios. I just want to know what happened.

I think one of the biggest travesties that could happen is him not be allowed to wrestle and then he wins an appeal and they have to figure out some sort of wrestle off. They better get it right

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The same people arguing for the most black/white reading on the rules will be the first ones complaining when we get zero golds and Russia mops the floor with us. They will also keep talking about "fairness" and other empty words while acting like USA wrestling is some supremely ethical organization.

The truth is, America has a terrible selection process and just because we have made minor improvements doesn't mean the overall foundation is trash. We took a turd house, put some stainless steel appliances and a fresh coat of paint and act like we are Frank Lloyd Wright.

 

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