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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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6 minutes ago, mspart said:

True, but it is the same for everyone.  Was anyone else late to weigh ins today?   If not, then the time for weigh ins is not the problem, being late is.  Again, biggest tourney the US has and you are late?  It is too bad for Cox but he was late, either because of him or his coaches, he was late.

I guess Madcat11 will have to make his call before the semi's are over, but the bracket has been adjusted so for an appeal to work, how will it be implemented if approved?

mspart

 

Truly our fate is in @madcat11's worthy hands.

7 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It' depends on the context, but usually, it's not. The weigh-in time determines amount of time wrestlers are given to recover from a cut. I know a minute or two of extra recovery time is truly inconsequential, but so is 0.1 lbs of weight advantage. I'm saying this while I am also wishing that Cox gets an opportunity to wrestle purely out of fandom and being fundamentally wrong. 

Maybe I'm picking nits, but I've never seen the weigh in time as being the same in terms of importance as the weight classes.

6 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Would you feel differently if you knew J’Den needed the extra few minutes to cut the weight? That’s the question I can’t get answered. And my overarching point being, how are tournament organizers supposed to know what he’s doing?

I feel like I indirectly answered this, but maybe I wouldn't?  I dunno.  Again, if he's weighing in within a couple of minutes of the deadline, the most important part is that he's weighing in two hours early, right?  But it's two hours before the start of any competition, not necessarily his competition.  So the 57 kg guys are on the mat about 2 hours after the deadline, but the bigger guys actually have to be ready more like 3 hours before they will compete.

Edited by VakAttack

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I would suggest that this is an Olympic qualifying event and that the USOC is likely pretty strict about rules being followed.  They do not want a lot of legal issues.

Folks are bringing up circumstances that may have been completely outside of a wrestlers control (they were told the wrong info, the door was locked, etc).  I supposed that's why the decision went to some 'group' who evaluated the circumstances and made a decision based on them.  I'll be curious to see what additional information comes out.

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9 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

It's not bending the rules - it's interpreting them. What if the final weigh-in time was poorly or incorrectly communicated to Cox? What if the scale guy's watch was off by a few minutes? These would be situations where you want flexibility to interpret the rules - which is different from bending/breaking the rules.

everybody in the world (including Cox & coaches) have the opportunity to own, at a very low cost, a watch updated to exact atomic clock time.  Moreover, they can show up 10 minutes early.  ;_;

Edited by ionel

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5 minutes ago, nom said:

I get your point.  My language about a rule fundamental to the sport is too strong.  And him weighing in even later is just going to harm his own recovery.  It seems that the deadline for weigh ins is most relevant to the administration of the tournament itself.  

Sure.  I just feel like the main goal here should have been to get the best team.  I'm not saying Cox and his team have no culpability, but that ship has already sailed, so then we have to decide what is best for USAW to do at that point?  Is it to strictly enforce the weigh in time?  Why?  As long as Cox is on weight, to me the best thing for the team, the country's wrestling program, and for me is that Cox wrestles, and likely he and Snyder settle it on the mat.

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For those of you who are saying making weight is different than being late because it is fundamental to the sport, it is fundamental to make weight ON TIME. Since we first started wrestling you had to make weight on time. Peewees, high school, college, UWW events but now we want to make an exception in the Olympic trials. I GUARANTEE that if this was the finals and Cox was wrestling someone important to you not one of you would be advocating for him. And none of you would say give Downey or Starocci or anybody else that was not a medal threat any more time. Everyone of you, and I'm not saying you are bad people because your heart is in the right place, but everyone of you KNOWS it is wrong but want to make an excuse for him. He did it to himself only he is to blame, I almost puked because I am huge fan and trying to bend the rules for him not only opens up a huge can of worms but makes it so the next time it happens people will do the same thing. When you don't make weight at the prescribed time you have missed making weight. THAT is FUNDAMENTAL to this sport!

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

 

I feel like I indirectly answered this, but maybe I wouldn't?  I dunno.  Again, if he's weighing in within a couple of minutes of the deadline, the most important part is that he's weighing in two ours early, right?  But it's two hours before the start of any competition, not necessarily his competition.  So the 57 kg guys are on the mat about 2 hours after thedeadline, but the bigger guys actually have to be ready more like 3 hours before they will compete.

I think that’s a fair point. I actually want J’Den to be the US representative at 97 kg. But at the same time I think bending the rules (or interpreting them differently) here is really setting a precedent that is going to be a pain in the ass in the future. I also think it’s weird that every single other wrestler in the tournament had no problem getting weighed in, but J’Den did have a problem. It just seems really odd. 

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If this was the Olympics and the exact same situation* happened with a Russian wrestler, but they let it slide and let him wrestle anyway, I'd think it was bull crap.

I love Cox and was incredibly excited to watch him wrestle this weekend, but rule #1 of wrestling is to make weight at the place and time appointed, and it doesn't appear he did that. 

This isn't a "tryout." It's a qualifying competition taking place under a set of rules. As much as I love J'Den, why should he be exempt from the weigh-in rules? 

If there are some other facts out there to suggest it's unjust to exclude him, I hope those facts come to light and I hope justice is done. 

But right now it looks like a very simple but sad case of missing weight. 

*by "situation" I mean the circumstances that we think we know at this point: Cox missing weight within the time frame appointed, and later making weight after the time for weigh-ins expired.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Sure.  I just feel like the main goal here should have been to get the best team.  I'm not saying Cox and his team have no culpability, but that ship has already sailed, so then we have to decide what is best for USAW to do at that point?  Is it to strictly enforce the weigh in time?  Why?  As long as Cox is on weight, to me the best thing for the team, the country's wrestling program, and for me is that Cox wrestles, and likely he and Snyder settle it on the mat.

Aren't you a lawyer?  Don't you agree that providing discretion like this opens up the door for all sorts of accusations today, and in the future, when perhaps discretion goes the other way?  USAW does not want any allegations of favoritism or discrimination.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Sure.  I just feel like the main goal here should have been to get the best team.  I'm not saying Cox and his team have no culpability, but that ship has already sailed, so then we have to decide what is best for USAW to do at that point?  Is it to strictly enforce the weigh in time?  Why?  As long as Cox is on weight, to me the best thing for the team, the country's wrestling program, and for me is that Cox wrestles, and likely he and Snyder settle it on the mat.

Who should determine the list of wrestlers who don’t need to weigh in on time?

Also, is missing by weight by .1-.2 lbs OK for certain wrestlers who we feel have a better shot at gold?

The rules are clearly laid out and accepted by everyone and this is an Olympic qualifying event and there is a reason why the rules are there.

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1 minute ago, goheels1812 said:

I think that’s a fair point. I actually want J’Den to be the US representative at 97 kg. But at the same time I think bending the rules (or interpreting them differently) here is really setting a precedent that is going to be a pain in the ass in the future. I also think it’s weird that every single other wrestler in the tournament had no problem getting weighed in, but J’Den did have a problem. It just seems really odd. 

I understand that.  Like I said in my other post, though, what's the actual most important thing here:  enforcing this weigh in time rule, or trying to get the best team?  Again, there is certainly no guarantee that Cox even beats Snyder.  But I think it's in USAW's best interest to find out.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Maybe I'm picking nits, but I've never seen the weigh in time as being the same in terms of importance as the weight classes.

Since 0.1 lbs and 1-2 minutes are truly inconsequential amounts, we have to look at more extreme situations to determine whether something is factor or not.

Is a 5 lb weight allowance too big of an advantage to a hard weight-cutter? Let's say James Green was granted a 5 lb advntage at 65 kg. Is that fair? If not, then why is 0.1 lbs fair? Either he is on weight or he's not.

Similarly, what if James Green was given day before weigh-ins while a smaller 65 kger like, say Yianni, had to weight in morning of? To even the playing field, you have to determine a specific time to weigh in. Being late might hurt recovery time but it might also give a really hard cutter an opportunity to get some sleep the night before and work off more weight to make scratch the day of.

The bottom line is that if we have weight classes, we then need to determine when scratch weight can be made. If there is literally no allowance for weight, there should be no allowance for more or less time to weigh in outside of the published window.

That is what's inarguably fair. Any deviation from that opens up the proverbial can of worms.

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3 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

So it was correctly communicated to over 100 other wrestlers that weighed in on time, but incorrectly communicated to 1 wrestler? If it happened to multiple wrestlers I could absolutely get behind that theory. But it didn’t. It happened to one wrestler and that’s where personal accountability comes into play. 

My point is to the "rules are rules" crowd that insists rules must be applied to the letter with no wiggle room. That's not the real world.

To your point, Cox and everyone else was there on time but who knows what was told to Cox individually after he missed the first weigh-in. This is why context matters and rules should be applied reasonably.

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6 minutes ago, wamba said:

Who should determine the list of wrestlers who don’t need to weigh in on time?

Also, is missing by weight by .1-.2 lbs OK for certain wrestlers who we feel have a better shot at gold?

The rules are clearly laid out and accepted by everyone and this is an Olympic qualifying event and there is a reason why the rules are there.

Ok.  What is the reason that the rule is that you have to be weighed in two hours before the start of all competition (not Cox's competition which would start later, but all competition)?

6 minutes ago, nom said:

Aren't you a lawyer?  Don't you agree that providing discretion like this opens up the door for all sorts of accusations today, and in the future, when perhaps discretion goes the other way?  USAW does not want any allegations of favoritism or discrimination.

Discretion always opens the door to disputes, but we have discretion in all areas of the law, so I don't see it as that big of a problem.  Police officer's don't HAVE to arrest you just because they see you committing a crime.  Again, though, to me this is purely an entertainment product, not public policy, criminal law, etc.  More bright line rules in things that have real-world effects are better.  Discretionary/arbitrary rules in sport are whatever.  We also have already codified favoritism into the rules with byes to the semis and finals.  Hell, most of the rules we have in wrestling are more discretion than bright line.  What is passivity?  What is stalling?  You get the point.

Edited by VakAttack

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6 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I understand that.  Like I said in my other post, though, what's the actual most important thing here:  enforcing this weigh in time rule, or trying to get the best team?  Again, there is certainly no guarantee that Cox even beats Snyder.  But I think it's in USAW's best interest to find out.

I think it’s in the best interest of USAW to let J’Den wrestle. But I can tell you if I were another wrestler that did make weight on time, I’d be at the very least slightly annoyed. If USAW does overturn the decision it’s going to be seen as nepotism because I highly doubt they’d do the same thing for a guy like Zach Sanders. If he missed weigh ins he would’ve been headed back home 15 minutes later and we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. 

Edited by goheels1812

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Ok.  What is the reason that the rule is that you have to be weighed in two hours before the start of all competition (not Cox's competition which would start later, but all competition)?

Discretion always opens the door to disputes, but we have discretion in all areas of the law, so I don't see it as that big of a problem.  Police officer's don't HAVE to arrest you just because they see you committing a crime.  Again, though, to me this is purely an entertainment product, not public policy, etc.  More bright line rules in things that have real-world effects are better.  Discretionary/arbitrary rules in sport are whatever.  We also have already codified favoritism into the rules with byes to the semis and finals.  Hell, most of the rules we have in wrestling are more discretion than bright line.  What is passivity?  What is stalling?  You get the point.

J'Den Cox isn't the only guy trying to reach a dream. You have to be fair to all competitors.

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1 minute ago, goheels1812 said:

I think it’s in the best interest of USAW to let J’Den wrestle. But I can tell you if I were another wrestler that did make weight on time, I’d be at the very least slightly annoyed. If USAW does overturn the decision it’s going to be seen as nepotism because I highly doubt they’d do the same thing for a guy like Zach Sanders. If he missed weigh ins he would’ve been headed back home 15 minutes later and we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. 

To be clear, I would be in favor of this for any wrestler, not just Cox.

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13 minutes ago, ionel said:

everybody in the world (including Cox & coaches) have the opportunity to own, at a very low cost, a watch updated to exact atomic clock time.  Moreover, they can show up 10 minutes early.  ;_;

Counterpoint: time is a man-made fiction.

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1 minute ago, JeanGuy said:

J'Den Cox isn't the only guy trying to reach a dream. You have to be fair to all competitors.

I don't see what's unfair about it, if he made weight.  Again, he wouldn't have had a match until...like an hour from now.  He literally has not missed a second of a match he would have been in.  Like I said, we already have favoritism baked into the rules themselves.

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it really boils down to this...

you either fall into the camp that values personal accountability or you fall into the camp that does NOT value personal accountability...

and the moment you bend a rule for a grown man just for selfish reasons, then every other rule means nothing...

if there was an actual extenuating circumstances that warrants USAW to reconsider what happened for cox to miss weight, then i am reasonably confident they will make the right decision...

but, breaking rules just to have a better chance to win a gold medal is totally unacceptable...

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For everyone bent out of shape by this, j'den has been wrestling his entire life, and has made weight every other time no problem.  For those saying "Russia does it this way we should change it..." every other wrestler wrestling today made weight on time, and the Russians have to make weight at the Olympics just like everyone else. 

Making weight is the primary part of qualifying for the sport, and it is unique to weight class sports.  Making weight is an age-old struggle, and special situations aren't made for anyone.  For other interesting weight-related stories, go watch barry davis recounting the year he quit before big ten's and dan gable found him and helped him cut on the road.  For other disappointing weight-related stories, daniel cormier failed to make weight for the olympics in Beijing in 2008.  He was cutting a ton of weight and had to stop bc his kidneys shut down.

Everyone in wrestling has to bow to the scale, it's one of the ways ultimate fairness is imparted in the sport.  Yes lots of good wrestlers cut a lot of weight, but there are different approaches to this, and each extra pound you cut is more time dancing with the devil.  Cutting too much weight bites back in different ways.  Some suck a lot of weight, get down to weight well within time limits, and it hurts their performance day of competition because they spend a lot of time down at weight and they take the mat looking like scarecrows.  A way to avoid this, is if you are pulling a lot of weight, is to spend as little time down at weight as possible.  Some of the best wrestlers in history have stories of cutting weight like this.  Rather than going to bed on weight, many either stay up all night or wake up early, and cut a ton of weight the morning of.  Henry Cejudo told a story way back of not sleeping well, pounding a ton of water before bed so he could sleep well, and waking up to cut all the weight the morning of as well.  This happens at most levels of wrestling. 

Wrestlers miss weight.  Coaches mess up.  It can feel unfair, but for anyone complaining about this, if you have wrestled for a few years, you know what happened here.  It sucks terribly, and is heartbreaking, but accountability is one of the foundational messages all wrestling coaches preach to all their wrestlers.  

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