J'Den Cox Misses Weight

[ionel 1,478]

26 minutes ago, IronChef said:

You hit on something important with your last sentence. If Cox is allowed to weigh in late and break the rules, every wrestler he beats has a legitimate grievance. “I lost my chance at the Olympics because USA Wrestling allowed someone to weigh in late.”

Let’s say Cox wrestles and beats Kollin Moore. Is there a difference in financial rewards and opportunities if you are #3 vs. #2 on the national team ladder? If Cox beats Moore after being allowed to break the rules to enter, Moore has a real grievance. “USA Wrestling broke the rules, resulting in me losing this much money and these opportunities.” 

This is nothing compared to Smith Lewis. 

[lu1979 394]

19 hours ago, olddirty said:

Is there anything in the weigh in procedure protocol that deals with clock accuracy?  Thinking if this goes to court, it would have to be likened to a radar gun catching a speeder.  If it does not have accurate levels of calibration tests done, one could argue that such a miniscule difference in time would be void if they cannot prove the clock they used was tested and calibrated to atomic spec

This is the age of cell phones - cell phone time is always spot on - - clock accuracy is no longer a problem.

[MizzouGrad 82]

4 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

 It's not his 1st Olympic trials. He knows when he supposed to weigh-in and to change it after the fact just means your hanging on his dick. There's no goddamn excuse!

I’m done debating someone who refuses to educate themselves beyond a cursory glance of the most basic information. J’den has a sterling record in folk style and free style. His mistake as reported was understandable and logical. 
 

This is why you were a cop and not a judge. You lack the ability to formulate proper punishment with redemption as tethered component. We aren’t talking about a minor thing, but a lifelong course change for J’den and USA wrestling. 
 

No matter the outcome, you will remain a rigid and insular thinker. I don’t converse with small minded people who see the world through a narrow lense of right/wrong instead of a spectrum of gray. 
 

The case will go to the USOC and an appeal process will run it’s course. if J’den is denied, I will be saddened but move on. 
 

 

[Uwwdoc 20]

I also wonder how folk would feel if it wasn't Cox (arguably the favourite and a good chance of medalling in Tokyo) and it was say someone like Honis that this happened to, I feel most would let it be at "well he didn't make weight, end of story". There is a definite bias here due to the fact Cox was regarded as potentially the favourite to win and medal. But should that impact the fact that he missed weight/was too late with times. Probably not. I do feel for the guy though. Would like to hear his side of the story.

[npope 164]

35 minutes ago, IronChef said:

You hit on something important with your last sentence. If Cox is allowed to weigh in late and break the rules, every wrestler he beats has a legitimate grievance. “I lost my chance at the Olympics because USA Wrestling allowed someone to weigh in late.”

Let’s say Cox wrestles and beats Kollin Moore. Is there a difference in financial rewards and opportunities if you are #3 vs. #2 on the national team ladder? If Cox beats Moore after being allowed to break the rules to enter, Moore has a real grievance. “USA Wrestling broke the rules, resulting in me losing this much money and these opportunities.” 

Oh yeah, breaking the stated weigh-in rules would certainly result in multiple lawsuits against the governing body - why would they let themselves open for that?

And too, if folks think that missing the appointed weigh-in time should be a mulligan for Cox, why not apply the same rationale to not making weight to begin with? If a guy is good enough he really shouldn't have to make weight, right? If he is good enough, just show up when you want and at whatever weight you want and we will insert you into the bracket of your choice. That all makes perfect sense, right? (That is all tongue in cheek, for those who don't get my cynicism).

[Katie 807]

We are leaving one of our very best p4p wrestlers home because he weighed in a little late — a mistake that prejudiced nobody because it simply means he had less recovery time. Those are the only relevant facts. 

I don’t know the applicable rules or bylaws, but if they compelled this situation, then they need to change because the result is insanely stupid.

[ionel 1,478]

1 minute ago, Katie said:

We are leaving one of our very best p4p wrestlers home because he weighed in a little late — a mistake that prejudiced nobody because it simply means he had less recovery time. Those are the only relevant facts. 

I don’t know the applicable rules or bylaws, but if they compelled this situation, then they need to change because the result is insanely stupid.

So he already beat Synder?  When did that happen, yesterday after he missed weight but the two of them were just hanging out?  ;_;

[Le duke 139]

We are leaving one of our very best p4p wrestlers home because he weighed in a little late — a mistake that prejudiced nobody because it simply means he had less recovery time. Those are the only relevant facts. 
I don’t know the applicable rules or bylaws, but if they compelled this situation, then they need to change because the result is insanely stupid.

What you’re suggesting is that he basically shouldn’t have to comply with rules because he’s good.

Should he get the same exceptions at Worlds or the Olympics? Just ask nicely and UWW will grant Cox and only Cox a waiver?

I like J’den. He’s a great person and phenomenal athlete. But the rules are the rules.


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[Katie 807]

4 minutes ago, Le duke said:

What you’re suggesting is that he basically shouldn’t have to comply with rules because he’s good.

Should he get the same exceptions at Worlds or the Olympics? Just ask nicely and UWW will grant Cox and only Cox a waiver?

I like J’den. He’s a great person and phenomenal athlete. But the rules are the rules.


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He literally was set to get a bye to the semis because he’s good. And I think that’s a good policy.

Russia goes even further and, from time to time, simply selects the best wrestler. And they regularly smack us down.  
 

You can say “the rules are the rules” all you want, but that doesn’t mean the rules aren’t stupid or that they shouldn’t be changed. 

Edited April 3 by Katie

[MizzouGrad 82]

Just now, Katie said:

He literally was set to get a bye to the semis because he’s good. And I think that’s a good policy.

Russia goes even further and, from time to time, simply selects the best wrestler. And they regularly smack us down.  

Katie, you’re arguing with mid-level HR people. The world is black and white. There is no reason to continue. They lack the intellectual horsepower to simultaneously hold two idea in their heads: actions & context in which those actions were made. 
 

Occam’s razor meant J’den likely had a rational reason for being late. That has been reported and an appeals process will go to the USOC. 

Luckily for everyone involved, the narrow minded nits of this message board will have no role to play in the decision. 

[Le duke 139]

Katie, you’re arguing with mid-level HR people. The world is black and white. There is no reason to continue. They lack the intellectual horsepower to simultaneously hold two idea in their heads: actions & context in which those actions were made. 
 
Occam’s razor meant J’den likely had a rational reason for being late. That has been reported and an appeals process will go to the USOC. 
Luckily for everyone involved, the narrow minded nits of this message board will have no role to play in the decision. 

Meanwhile, Mr. Big Brain continues with ad hominem attacks on anyone who doesn’t agree with his perspective.


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[buckeye97 13]

7 minutes ago, Le duke said:

What you’re suggesting is that he basically shouldn’t have to comply with rules because he’s good.

Should he get the same exceptions at Worlds or the Olympics? Just ask nicely and UWW will grant Cox and only Cox a waiver?

I like J’den. He’s a great person and phenomenal athlete. But the rules are the rules.


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Maybe the US would have better results on the world stage if it didn't have such a pedantic mindset. Also, in sports its not about equality and following the rules. Better performers get the breaks. I still remember when Jimmy Johnson was hired to coach the Cowboys he had a reputation as being somewhat ruthless in how he ran training camp. A reporter asked him "Why don't you don't hold your stars to the same standard?" and Johnson replied "Because a guy trying to make the team isn't as good as Emmet and Troy". In this case, J'Den already had a first round bye in the tournament. He's considered one of the best pound for pound wrestlers in the world. An exception should have been made for him.

[CMShaffer07 0]

Hello fellow wrestling fans. I am nothing but a fan who has been following the sport since my days as a Mizzou student who discovered Brian Smith and Ben Askren doing awesome things for my university. As such I am admittedly a huge J'den Cox fan. I lurk around here a ton but have never felt compelled to post until this unfortunate incident and want to weigh in (excuse the pun). Based on what I've read here is my take on what happened yesterday morning:

Weigh ins were open for 1 hour, ending 2 hours before the first match of the day (8:00 local time). All material put out by USAW and NBC listed everything in eastern time, as is common for television. Somehow the Cox team didn't understand to subtract an hour for Dallas being in central time and though that weigh ins were from 8-9 and not 7-8. The plan all along was for Cox to show up right at the beginning of weigh ins likely less than a pound over the weight he needed to make, weigh to know what he needed to lose by the official scale, and then go sweat for 15 minutes to make weight. This is a perfectly reasonable plan to follow - assuming you start it at the right time. So J'den showed up at 8:00 thinking the weigh in window was just opening, weighed half a pound heavy, did his sweat, and 15 minutes later made weight. I absolutely cannot believe J'den or his team was trying to game anything or willfully break any rule. J'den Cox has never taken a shortcut in his life.

That being said, he missed the time cutoff plain and simple. That is an undeniable fact. Almost all of the responsibility here falls on Cox and his team for not understanding exactly when weigh ins were. Should USAW have been more clear about the time of everything? Maybe. If the above scenario is what happened then I also wonder how is nobody at the tournament not making a phone call or checking in with (arguably) the best wrestler in the whole qualifier when nobody has seen him by like 7:45? At that point somebody has to have the competence to make a phone call, realize that there was a time miscommunication/mishap, and figure out how to remedy it then and there. Maybe you say "alright, get your ass here and we'll work with you on the time". Head the thing off at the pass. However, that does not absolve J'den or his coaches of blame - ultimately it is up to them.

Should returning medalists, who weren't wrestling until 6:30 that evening at the earliest, have had a different weigh in cutoff? I think that would have been reasonable. But it wasn't put in place beforehand and cannot be retroactively applied. As far as I know Burroughs and Snyder didn't need to weigh in at all yesterday, so why apply an 8 hour rule to guys like Cox and Dake when the rule is 2 hours? I can definitely see this policy changing for future qualifiers.

So what is the remedy here? J'den is not the only piece in this puzzle. There is not only a spot in the Olympics on the line but also a spot on the world team and the stipends and other things that go with it. As far as I know there are two spots on the world team. Kollin Moore should not be stripped of his earned spot and all it entails. If that means essentially a 3 man team at 97 kg then that's what will happen for this year. Even as a huge J'den fan I would not support immediately giving him a best-of-3 shot against (presumably) Snyder. What I COULD get behind is having him wrestle Macchiavel and Moore back to back for the right to a best-of-3 against Snyder. If he beats Macchiavel and Moore then Cox earns his spot on the world team. If he beats Snyder then he gets the Olympic spot. I think that is the only fair remedy if an arbitrator rules in his favor.

Just my .02 from a nobody, but I feel like things are getting a little too heated around the issue. Nobody is acting with ill intent in this unfortunate situation, but it still really really sucks for everybody involved. I imagine the competitors themselves were bummed about missing the chance to prove themselves against one of the best wrestlers in the world, even if it really worked out for Moore who was not likely to grab that second world team spot. It'll be really interesting to follow in the coming weeks for sure.

[jross 423]

57 minutes ago, IronChef said:

You hit on something important with your last sentence. If Cox is allowed to weigh in late and break the rules, every wrestler he beats has a legitimate grievance. “I lost my chance at the Olympics because USA Wrestling allowed someone to weigh in late.”

Let’s say Cox wrestles and beats Kollin Moore. Is there a difference in financial rewards and opportunities if you are #3 vs. #2 on the national team ladder? If Cox beats Moore after being allowed to break the rules to enter, Moore has a real grievance. “USA Wrestling broke the rules, resulting in me losing this much money and these opportunities.” 

After 2x Senior world Champion beat 0xNCAA champion Moore... Moore has no one to blame but himself for losing to a next level wrestler.  Blaming USA is horse... you are the best or you are not... 

[wrestlingnerd 2,779]

11 minutes ago, Katie said:

You can say “the rules are the rules” all you want, but that doesn’t mean the rules aren’t stupid or that they shouldn’t be changed. 

I'm massively conflicted because the just answer is that he didn't make weight so shame on him but I desperately want him to beat Snyder because I think only he has a shot at gold and would almost certainly medal again.

There is a difference between thinking that the rules are stupid or should be changed but acknowledging them ... and saying that the rules are stupid so they should be changed right now after they've been published and everyone is governed by them equally. Under no scenario was Cox treated unfairly vis a vis the rules. If he gets favorable treatment, the "system" would be granting him an undeserved exception just because he's good. That's neither fair nor does it set an acceptable precedent. But I selfishly wouldn't complain if it happened while acknowledging the f*ckery of it. 

Edited April 3 by wrestlingnerd

[BobDole 991]

20 hours ago, DocBZ said:

FYI there are several USA Olympic Sports where the representative isn't necessarily the top qualifier but is rather chosen by the respective committee.

USAW has to submit their qualification protocol to the US Olympic Committee before it is officially approved. There are many hoops to jump through for Olympic qualification procedures.

One of the main reasons we don't have the "Final X" event this year is because USAW is at the mercy of NBC and the USOC.

[nom 984]

1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I'm massively conflicted because the just answer is that he didn't make weight so shame on him but I desperately want him to beat Snyder because I think only he has a shot at gold and would almost certainly medal again.

There is a difference between acknowledging that the rules are stupid or should be changed but acknowledging them and saying that the rules are stupid so they should be changed right now after they've been published and everyone is governed by them equally. Under no scenario was Cox treated unfairly vis a vis the rules. If he gets favorable treatment, the "system" would be granting him an undeserved exception just because he's good. That's neither fair nor does it set an acceptable precedent. But I selfishly wouldn't complain if it happened while acknowledging the f*ckery of it. 

Well said.  I'm pretty much right with you.

[ionel 1,478]

24 minutes ago, MizzouGrad said:

I don’t converse with small minded people ... 
 

seems like a rather black/white right/wrong type approach, don't ya think?   ;)

[jross 423]

Some of y’all would argue that native Americans deserve jail for smoking weed.  But the rules...

[lu_alum 794]

You hit on something important with your last sentence. If Cox is allowed to weigh in late and break the rules, every wrestler he beats has a legitimate grievance. “I lost my chance at the Olympics because USA Wrestling allowed someone to weigh in late.”
Let’s say Cox wrestles and beats Kollin Moore. Is there a difference in financial rewards and opportunities if you are #3 vs. #2 on the national team ladder? If Cox beats Moore after being allowed to break the rules to enter, Moore has a real grievance. “USA Wrestling broke the rules, resulting in me losing this much money and these opportunities.” 

This is dead-on point. It’s not just Snyder that would have to approve.

Also, would other guys in the bracket be given the same exception? What if Braxton Amos showed up late? I don’t think so.


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[ionel 1,478]

7 minutes ago, jross said:

After 2x Senior world Champion beat 0xNCAA champion Moore... Moore has no one to blame but himself for losing to a next level wrestler.  Blaming USA is horse... you are the best or you are not... 

You mean 'best at your weight class,' correct?

[lu_alum 794]

This is nothing compared to Smith Lewis. 

True, but Gable was involved in that one.


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[ionel 1,478]

Just now, lu_alum said:

True, but Gable was involved in that one.


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Stevenson?!  ;)

[klehner 447]

29 minutes ago, Katie said:

We are leaving one of our very best p4p wrestlers home because he broke the rules.  weighed in a little late — a mistake that prejudiced nobody because it simply means he had less recovery time. Those are the only relevant facts. 

I don’t know the applicable rules or bylaws, but if they compelled this situation, then they need to change because the result is insanely stupid.

FIFY.

[spladle08 753]

Still sad about this ..