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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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I dont know the rules and the history as many know here.  I am speaking simply a patriotic American.  

1st thought. We want the best US team.  I think about 50% picked Cox over Snyder.  Personally, I think Snyder has better chance against most wrestlers but Cox had better shot vs. Russian Tank. 

Would have liked to see Snyder vs. Cox

2nd)  to me it is meaningless to blame coach even if he is part of usa wrestling.  Picking the correct coaching staff is the wrestlers responsibility.  Would you pick Tom Ryan to teach you how to get off bottom? 

3rd) ok so say Cox was late but we bent rules.  Who is to blame if he misses weight at Olympics?  I have more confidence Snyder will make weight. 

I am torn.  I want the best team and Cox might be best shot for gold. 

However, Snyder made weight and as far as I know this kind of drama has never happened to him. He actually sought how knew coaches because he felt he needed it.  

Everyone else made weight? I gotta think this falls right on Cox.  Making weight is part of wrestling.  

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I'm sure this came up somewhere in the posts I missed, but it's a little unseemly the way Cox is throwing Jackson under the bus here. He's not some kid who needs his hand held. He's a 26 year old senior level veteran. He knows the general weigh in rules and I am 100% certain there is an email or info packet in his possession with the correct time listed. Furthermore, 195 out of 196 wrestlers showed up on time Friday.

 

I'm not wading into whether or not he should have been allowed to weigh in; I just think the right thing to do is to take responsibility for your own mistakes and not blame others. The charitable interpretation is that he is saying these things to lay the groundwork for his appeal so that he looks more like a victim.

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3 minutes ago, IronChef said:

I'm sure this came up somewhere in the posts I missed, but it's a little unseemly the way Cox is throwing Jackson under the bus here. He's not some kid who needs his hand held. He's a 26 year old senior level veteran. He knows the general weigh in rules and I am 100% certain there is an email or info packet in his possession with the correct time listed. Furthermore, 195 out of 196 wrestlers showed up on time Friday.

 

I'm not wading into whether or not he should have been allowed to weigh in; I just think the right thing to do is to take responsibility for your own mistakes and not blame others. The charitable interpretation is that he is saying these things to lay the groundwork for his appeal so that he looks more like a victim.

Part of being a high level wrestler in us is picking adequate coaches 

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Like some on here I think the KJ blame is an end around as part of the appeal process, but that is just an opinion.

Letting him wrestle could become messy. If they grant the appear and he has to wrestle Moore and loses, does Moore get another shot at Snyder to let the whole process play out?

I believe USA Gymnastics allowed the Karolyis to select the final Olympic team members. In Rio the women that finished 5th and 6th were left off the team for the ones that finished in 7th and 8th. Even though they all competed at the trials.

Do you give Cox the berth and tell Snyder we think Cox is better right now?

 

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3 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

Like some on here I think the KJ blame is an end around as part of the appeal process, but that is just an opinion.

Letting him wrestle could become messy. If they grant the appear and he has to wrestle Moore and loses, does Moore get another shot at Snyder to let the whole process play out?

I believe USA Gymnastics allowed the Karolyis to select the final Olympic team members. In Rio the women that finished 5th and 6th were left off the team for the ones that finished in 7th and 8th. Even though they all competed at the trials.

Do you give Cox the berth and tell Snyder we think Cox is better right now?

 

The similarity/difference in the gymnastics trials/selections and the wrestling trials, is the rules for the events and team selections are laid out ahead of time.  In wrestling, winner at trials gets the spot.  In women's gymnastics in 2016, only the All-Around winner was guaranteed a spot on the team while "The remaining four (4) athletes and up to three (3) replacement athletes will be determined by the Selection Committee from among the competitors at the 2016 U.S. Olympic Team Trials – Gymnastics, utilizing the discretionary criteria outlined in Section 2."

Those Olympic Qualifying procedures as set in stone long before the events occur.

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7 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

Like some on here I think the KJ blame is an end around as part of the appeal process, but that is just an opinion.

Letting him wrestle could become messy. If they grant the appear and he has to wrestle Moore and loses, does Moore get another shot at Snyder to let the whole process play out?

I believe USA Gymnastics allowed the Karolyis to select the final Olympic team members. In Rio the women that finished 5th and 6th were left off the team for the ones that finished in 7th and 8th. Even though they all competed at the trials.

Do you give Cox the berth and tell Snyder we think Cox is better right now?

 

That's not happening.  A process was laid out and followed (allegedly).  USA held up their end of the bargain, Cox didn't.  Furthermore, why would Moore get another shot?  He lost.

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1 minute ago, JeanGuy said:

Like some on here I think the KJ blame is an end around as part of the appeal process, but that is just an opinion.

Letting him wrestle could become messy. If they grant the appear and he has to wrestle Moore and loses, does Moore get another shot at Snyder to let the whole process play out?

I believe USA Gymnastics allowed the Karolyis to select the final Olympic team members. In Rio the women that finished 5th and 6th were left off the team for the ones that finished in 7th and 8th. Even though they all competed at the trials.

Do you give Cox the berth and tell Snyder we think Cox is better right now?

 

I am a fan of J'den's and out of my own fandom, I wanted them to let him wrestle, whether it was right or wrong. But the more I think about it objectively, I think they should have let him wrestle to avoid the cluster**** that will happen if he wins his appeal. He wouldn't have just had to beat Moore, he would have had to win 2 matches to get to Snyder. So now you would have a mini tournament or sorts. Now, I don't think he will win his appeal, but it seems clear they are going to play the "USA Wrestling employee" angle, and there is a slim chance it will work. If they can prove, via texts or emails, that KJ told him to be there at 8, he is a USA Wrestling employee and they are putting on the tournament. I understand the argument about it setting a precedent, but don't think it would actually be a problem, and this could turn in to a much bigger mess than if they had just let him wrestle.

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For those with experience at these high level tournaments, does Cox rent his own car, book his own hotel, and drive himself to the arena? Or does his coach pick him up/arrange those things? 

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2 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

For those with experience at these high level tournaments, does Cox rent his own car, book his own hotel, and drive himself to the arena? Or does his coach pick him up/arrange those things? 

Good questions.  I don't recall if USAW pays for National Team Members to attend Nationals, OTT or WTT.  USAW usually pays for National Team Members (top 3 finishers from WTT or OTT) for international competitions along with mandatory domestic training camps (CO Springs).  Domestic competition travel expenses are usually paid by the Club they are associated with.  The club pays for air travel, hotel, local transportation and per diem for meals.  Depending on the circumstances, the coach may rent the car or the athlete might.  As far as driving back and forth that too will depend on circumstances but it can go either way.

From what I have gathered, KJ was acting as personal coach and not National Development Coach so who knows who paid for what.  The National "Developmental" coach is generally responsible for improving FS wrestling throughout the country at all levels and is not a Sr. level coaching position.  I say "generally" because maybe the job description was personalized to fit the strengths of the employee.  

 

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I see no effective way to address the issue.   You really think Moore and whoever else will want to wrestle Cox?  For what?  They would say no ... and if you want to force me, talk to my lawyer.  And you think Snyder would agree to it?  Endless litigation.  Seriously.    

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Reposting from another thread:

 

My solution: Cox is awarded a special wrestle-off with Snyder with terms as follows:  If Cox wins 3 consecutive matches against Snyder, he takes Snyder's spot on the Olympic team.  If Snyder wins any 1 of the 3 matches, Snyder keeps his spot and Cox returns to his present situation (not an Olympic team member or alternate).  Aside from potentially losing their status as 1st/2nd Olympic alternate if Cox wins, no compensation, etc is changed for Moore or Gadson regardless of what happens. Also USA Wrestling employees can never be the primary coach for a wrestler going forward.

This is imperfect, but the best possible option.  Cox is in a worse position vs if this never happened (as he should be) because he has to win all 3 matches, not 2 of 3 and may not be on the world team at all.  But if there is evidence to support the assertion that he is in this position because he trusted in good faith what a USA Wrestling employee was telling him, he should retain some possible scenario for making the team. If Cox clearly is the best by a considerable margin, there is a way in which he can play his way into the Olympics and improve the strength of the US Team, which is an important consideration here.

(Yes, I realize this will not actually happen.)

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Short of rewarding Cox for missing weight by just dropping him into the finals, there is not solution that isn't patently insane.

USAW should have done what they do behind closed doors and just let Cox wrestle despite weighing in 20 minutes late or whatever. These stupid bureaucracies never do the right thing, they are too confused. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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1 hour ago, tigerfan said:

For those with experience at these high level tournaments, does Cox rent his own car, book his own hotel, and drive himself to the arena? Or does his coach pick him up/arrange those things? 

I have it on good source Cox arrived at the arena 45 minutes early.

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

how long should we expect you all to be grasping at straws????

serious question...

I will still be demanding a wrestle off for the 20202021 spot when Snyder and Cox are AARP members...

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1 minute ago, jross said:

I will still be demanding a wrestle off for the 20202021 spot when Snyder and Cox are AARP members...

your honesty is at least somewhat refreshing...

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Thank you drag it - This expresses exactly what I have been thinking as I read many of the missives on this thread.  It is far from apparent that Cox was beating Snyder.  Like many I was greatly anticipating that match but I believe Snyder was a slight favorite.  The fact that the match didn't happen is on Cox.  Snyder is the only one who has a W over Sadulaev and if anyone has a shot of doing it again it is Kyle.
Mohammadi has a better than chance than Snyder to beat Saduleuv.

Hell, he pinned Snyder too.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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16 minutes ago, John Morgan said:

Good questions.  I don't recall if USAW pays for National Team Members to attend Nationals, OTT or WTT.  USAW usually pays for National Team Members (top 3 finishers from WTT or OTT) for international competitions along with mandatory domestic training camps (CO Springs).  Domestic competition travel expenses are usually paid by the Club they are associated with.  The club pays for air travel, hotel, local transportation and per diem for meals.  Depending on the circumstances, the coach may rent the car or the athlete might.  As far as driving back and forth that too will depend on circumstances but it can go either way.

From what I have gathered, KJ was acting as personal coach and not National Development Coach so who knows who paid for what.  The National "Developmental" coach is generally responsible for improving FS wrestling throughout the country at all levels and is not a Sr. level coaching position.  I say "generally" because maybe the job description was personalized to fit the strengths of the employee.  

 

So I guess I’m wondering if KJ picked him up at the hotel or was there a USAW van, or what? I’m a little surprised that they were so isolated that they didn’t realize everyone else left for weigh ins at 7ish. The lack of situational awareness is surprising to me. 

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Just now, tigerfan said:

So I guess I’m wondering if KJ picked him up at the hotel or was there a USAW van, or what? I’m a little surprised that they were so isolated that they didn’t realize everyone else left for weigh ins at 7ish. The lack of situational awareness is surprising to me. 

USAW is not going to send a van for the competitors...

there is little about this whole situation that is not surprising...

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16 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

Mohammadi has a better than chance than Snyder to beat Saduleuv.

Hell, he pinned Snyder too.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

You can certainly make an argument about that seeing Mohammadi does have that pin over Snyder.  It is a lot harder to make an objective argument that Cox has a better chance of beating Sadulaev (as many people on this forum are constantly saying) than Snyder does.  Snyder has actually done it before.  Cox's best win ever in FS is probably Karimi.  He does not have a win against anyone who would be objectively considered equal to Snyder.  It is clear bias based on results from a lower non Olympic weight  that so many on this forum are holding up Cox as the US's best chance to beat Sadulaev.  When if you consider the evidence objectively the answer to that question is Snyder.  

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2 hours ago, Crotalus said:

I am a fan of J'den's and out of my own fandom, I wanted them to let him wrestle, whether it was right or wrong. But the more I think about it objectively, I think they should have let him wrestle to avoid the cluster**** that will happen if he wins his appeal. He wouldn't have just had to beat Moore, he would have had to win 2 matches to get to Snyder. So now you would have a mini tournament or sorts. Now, I don't think he will win his appeal, but it seems clear they are going to play the "USA Wrestling employee" angle, and there is a slim chance it will work. If they can prove, via texts or emails, that KJ told him to be there at 8, he is a USA Wrestling employee and they are putting on the tournament. I understand the argument about it setting a precedent, but don't think it would actually be a problem, and this could turn in to a much bigger mess than if they had just let him wrestle.

KJ was not acting as an USA administrator.  He was acting as Cox's personal coach.

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6 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

You can certainly make an argument about that seeing Mohammadi does have that pin over Snyder.  It is a lot harder to make an objective argument that Cox has a better chance of beating Sadulaev (as many people on this forum are constantly saying) than Snyder does.  Snyder has actually done it before.  Cox's best win ever in FS is probably Karimi.  He does not have a win against anyone who would be objectively considered equal to Snyder.  It is clear bias based on results from a lower non Olympic weight  that so many on this forum are holding up Cox as the US's best chance to beat Sadulaev.  When if you consider the evidence objectively the answer to that question is Snyder.  

I don't know Bro! The was a wicked cool video on Flo of Cox drilling with Snyder and he hit a DIRTY single!

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19 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

You can certainly make an argument about that seeing Mohammadi does have that pin over Snyder.  It is a lot harder to make an objective argument that Cox has a better chance of beating Sadulaev (as many people on this forum are constantly saying) than Snyder does.  Snyder has actually done it before.  Cox's best win ever in FS is probably Karimi.  He does not have a win against anyone who would be objectively considered equal to Snyder.  It is clear bias based on results from a lower non Olympic weight  that so many on this forum are holding up Cox as the US's best chance to beat Sadulaev.  When if you consider the evidence objectively the answer to that question is Snyder.  

David Taylor x 2? Kyle Dake x 2? I'd say both of those guys would be at least near the level of Snyder. 

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1 hour ago, rpm002 said:

Reposting from another thread:

 

My solution: Cox is awarded a special wrestle-off with Snyder with terms as follows:  If Cox wins 3 consecutive matches against Snyder, he takes Snyder's spot on the Olympic team.  If Snyder wins any 1 of the 3 matches, Snyder keeps his spot and Cox returns to his present situation (not an Olympic team member or alternate).  Aside from potentially losing their status as 1st/2nd Olympic alternate if Cox wins, no compensation, etc is changed for Moore or Gadson regardless of what happens. Also USA Wrestling employees can never be the primary coach for a wrestler going forward.

This is imperfect, but the best possible option.  Cox is in a worse position vs if this never happened (as he should be) because he has to win all 3 matches, not 2 of 3 and may not be on the world team at all.  But if there is evidence to support the assertion that he is in this position because he trusted in good faith what a USA Wrestling employee was telling him, he should retain some possible scenario for making the team. If Cox clearly is the best by a considerable margin, there is a way in which he can play his way into the Olympics and improve the strength of the US Team, which is an important consideration here.

(Yes, I realize this will not actually happen.)

The reason it won't actually happen is because it's not the best possible option.  He didn't make weight at a wrestling tournament in the allotted time, thus was not allowed to wrestle -- which is the best, and only possible, option for what happens when you don't make weight at a wrestling tournament in the allotted time.  

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17 minutes ago, XiXiTiger said:

David Taylor x 2? Kyle Dake x 2? I'd say both of those guys would be at least near the level of Snyder. 

If you want to start counting wins from much lower weights you can add those in.  Dake is currently wrestling 50 lbs lower than Snyder/Cox's weight.  Taylor's is 27 lbs lighter.  Still I will give you those two - what are Cox and Snyder's best wins on the FS circuit?

Snyder has wins over:

A Sadulaev  Rus -Oly GM 4 WGMs & W Slv M at both 86 and 97 kg

A Gadsiov Rus - WGM & WSM @ 97kg

K Gazyumov WGM, Oly SM 2X Oly BzM 3X WSM WBzM

J Varner Oly GM & WBz M

V Andriytsav Ukr Oly SM & WBzM

R Salas Cuba - 2X WSM & WBzM

plus multiple other world  medalists at 97 kg.

 

Against that record of accomplishment you can hold up as Cox's best wins in his FS career as those against K Dake a 2X WGM @ 79KG and DT a 1 X WGM at 86Kg.  He also gets Karimi and the other medalists he beat on the way to his two titles at 92 Kg.  These are not comparable records of accomplishment in FS.  Now I am not saying that there is no way that Cox beats Snyder.  Personally I had Snyder as a slight favorite and like everyone I REALLY wanted to see that matchup.  I would not have been shocked by a Cox win.  I can even understand those who favored Cox based on how he has looked. What I find surprising is how certain some people are that Cox was going to win that match or that he would then beat Sadulaev with no real objective reason for thinking so.  Anyway it is all just opinion at this point - I still have hope that we will see Snyder and Cox face off sometime in the future.  They both have a lot of good years ahead of them if they choose to continue wrestling.

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