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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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What's to stop him from appealing to the IOC to wrestle unattached? 

He's got relevant senior-level wins during the last cycle, and this entire thing was easily avoidable in the first place with a little foresight. The IOC can do what it wants, so he can go out there in a Black Panther singlet with Francis Ngannou in his corner and go take Captain America's shield in front of the entire world. 

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17 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

If you want to start counting wins from much lower weights you can add those in.  Dake is currently wrestling 50 lbs lower than Snyder/Cox's weight.  Taylor's is 27 lbs lighter.  Still I will give you those two - what are Cox and Snyder's best wins on the FS circuit?

Snyder has wins over:

A Sadulaev  Rus -Oly GM 4 WGMs & W Slv M at both 86 and 97 kg

A Gadsiov Rus - WGM & WSM @ 97kg

K Gazyumov WGM, Oly SM 2X Oly BzM 3X WSM WBzM

J Varner Oly GM & WBz M

V Andriytsav Ukr Oly SM & WBzM

R Salas Cuba - 2X WSM & WBzM

plus multiple other world  medalists at 97 kg.

 

Against that record of accomplishment you can hold up as Cox's best wins in his FS career as those against K Dake a 2X WGM @ 79KG and DT a 1 X WGM at 86Kg.  He also gets Karimi and the other medalists he beat on the way to his two titles at 92 Kg.  These are not comparable records of accomplishment in FS.  Now I am not saying that there is no way that Cox beats Snyder.  Personally I had Snyder as a slight favorite and like everyone I REALLY wanted to see that matchup.  I would not have been shocked by a Cox win.  I can even understand those who favored Cox based on how he has looked. What I find surprising is how certain some people are that Cox was going to win that match or that he would then beat Sadulaev with no real objective reason for thinking so.  Anyway it is all just opinion at this point - I still have hope that we will see Snyder and Cox face off sometime in the future.  They both have a lot of good years ahead of them if they choose to continue wrestling.

Unfortunately I'm only able to give one like/thanks to this informative, relevant, thoughtful, and sensible post.

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I'm super bummed that this happened, and I would have liked for them to let Cox wrestle (even though I get all of the valid arguments about how thats not fair, favoritism, etc).  But I think someone else made a very valid point which is that even if Cox had made weight, there are very sizeable odds that we'd be sending the exact same team.  We're sending the defending olympic champ, this is not a David Taylor Pat Downey situation.

Edited by lost

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3 minutes ago, lost said:

I'm super bummed that this happened, and I would have liked for them to let Cox wrestle (even though I get all of the valid arguments about how thats not fair, favoritism, etc).  But I think someone else made a very valid point which is that even if Cox had made weight, there are very sizeable odds that we'd be sending the exact same team.  We're sending the defending olympic champ, this is not a David Taylor Pat Downey situation.

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Edited by gimpeltf

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3 hours ago, rpm002 said:

Reposting from another thread:

 

My solution: Cox is awarded a special wrestle-off with Snyder with terms as follows:  If Cox wins 3 consecutive matches against Snyder, he takes Snyder's spot on the Olympic team.  If Snyder wins any 1 of the 3 matches, Snyder keeps his spot and Cox returns to his present situation (not an Olympic team member or alternate).  Aside from potentially losing their status as 1st/2nd Olympic alternate if Cox wins, no compensation, etc is changed for Moore or Gadson regardless of what happens. Also USA Wrestling employees can never be the primary coach for a wrestler going forward.

This is imperfect, but the best possible option.  Cox is in a worse position vs if this never happened (as he should be) because he has to win all 3 matches, not 2 of 3 and may not be on the world team at all.  But if there is evidence to support the assertion that he is in this position because he trusted in good faith what a USA Wrestling employee was telling him, he should retain some possible scenario for making the team. If Cox clearly is the best by a considerable margin, there is a way in which he can play his way into the Olympics and improve the strength of the US Team, which is an important consideration here.

(Yes, I realize this will not actually happen.)

I wouldn't mind that scenario as long as they changed criteria for matches that are tied so Snyder automatically wins the match if it is tied no matter when scoring took place.  Thst way Cox couldn't get cheap wins.  He would have to beat Snyder 3 straight time. 

As a fan I'd like to see that.  But is it fair to Snyder?  He already did what he was supposed to do and mentally has moved on.  Seems like danger of emotional dump if he has to win spot all over again. 

Keep in mind this was Snyder's spot.  He is the reining gold medalist at this weight. It was Cox's job to take it from him. Part of taking it from him includes having competent coaches and weighing in on time 

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2 hours ago, lu1979 said:

You can certainly make an argument about that seeing Mohammadi does have that pin over Snyder.  It is a lot harder to make an objective argument that Cox has a better chance of beating Sadulaev (as many people on this forum are constantly saying) than Snyder does.  Snyder has actually done it before.  Cox's best win ever in FS is probably Karimi.  He does not have a win against anyone who would be objectively considered equal to Snyder.  It is clear bias based on results from a lower non Olympic weight  that so many on this forum are holding up Cox as the US's best chance to beat Sadulaev.  When if you consider the evidence objectively the answer to that question is Snyder.  

I thought Snyder would beat Cox but if Cox wrestled the Russian tank I thought it would be tougher match up because Cox is so hard to score in and is very slippery. Cox would be new look.  

I mean Russian tank favorite over both.  

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3 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I thought Snyder would beat Cox but if Cox wrestled the Russian tank I thought it would be tougher match up because Cox is so hard to score in and is very slippery. Cox would be new look.  

I mean Russian tank favorite over both.  

Word from the training camps is that Cox absolutely had the advantage over Snyder. No idea if true, just what the rumor mill is putting out there.

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3 minutes ago, Perry said:

Word from the training camps is that Cox absolutely had the advantage over Snyder. No idea if true, just what the rumor mill is putting out there.

If insiders thought Cox had advantage why would Vegas odds favor Snyder.  I mean with the price you could get Cox for you could make good money.  

Vegas lines usually good ar telling us which rumors are true.

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ugh...

all these convoluted fake rules for a scenario that would have been totally avoided had cox just done what every other competitor did and have been doing since weight classes have been a thing...

make the wight when you are supposed to...

if you don't, you don't wrestle...

or you waste resources fighting a totally undefendable position...

 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

ugh...

all these convoluted fake rules for a scenario that would have been totally avoided had cox just done what every other competitor did and have been doing since weight classes have been a thing...

make the wight when you are supposed to...

if you don't, you don't wrestle...

or you waste resources fighting a totally undefendable position...

This commenter looks and sees a little boy running... shoelaces flapping in the wind... he cannot stand it... "He has to tie his shoes!” he says emphatically...   He has learned that actions have consequences... if you don't follow the rules, you might lose a privilege... all rules must be followed seriously... because rules...

If only we could sick @LJB on this insufferable rule follower.

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1 minute ago, jross said:

This commenter looks and sees a little boy running... shoelaces flapping in the wind... he cannot stand it... "He has to tie his shoes!” he says emphatically...   He has learned that actions have consequences... if you don't follow the rules, you might lose a privilege... all rules must be followed seriously... because rules...

If only we could sick @LJB on this insufferable rule follower.

if you trip and skin your knee on the sidewalk because of your untied shoes do you take the cement mixer to court?

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On 4/4/2021 at 12:01 AM, drag it said:

The spirit of your point is empathetic and hopeful, but this doesn't seem like a case where subjectivity/spirit comes into play.  It's an objective rule defined by two numbers:  97kg and 8:00 am.  You either qualify or you don't. 

And this is in the context of a zero sum game competition where everyone has to follow a uniform rule, so arguably the spirit of the rule if applied (which I think it shouldn't because it's so objective) goes the other way just as much as Cox's.

If there were some kind of natural catastrophe of hostage situation or something that blocked the roads or the elevators that made him late, then maybe they could try to find a way to craft an exception. But he and KJ just screwed up.  Doesn't make them bad people, but this was totally under their control.

As much as I don't like penalizing him for his coach's mistake, if that ends up being the entirety of the situation, I'll probably agree.

Selfishly, I wish they'd simply allowed him to wrestle, but I can absolutely understand their decision, and after everything plays out, I suspect I'll agree that it was the correct call.

That Snyder looked as good as he did against Moore suggests it would have been a competitive series as well, but at least Dake finally got it done vs. Burroughs (although Burroughs' post match interview was so heartfelt and gracious that even Dake's wins were bittersweet).

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Just now, LJB said:

if you trip and skin your knee on the sidewalk because of your untied shoes do you take the cement mixer to court?

I would never trip and skin my knee because my rule breaking would horrify some... they would snitch me to the enforcers... they have such an outstanding moral compass and all... don't know the difference between something important and something minor, the difference between things that are a matter of safety and stuff that’s harmless.  Cox made weight 15 minutes late... 8+ hours before he would wrestle... the mistake does not fit the punishment.  I know they don't teach situational awareness in school... Come on man!  You are one of the smart ones.

Now I am rather obtuse myself... will you explain your cement mixer comparison to the Cox situation?  

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4 hours ago, lu1979 said:

You can certainly make an argument about that seeing Mohammadi does have that pin over Snyder.  It is a lot harder to make an objective argument that Cox has a better chance of beating Sadulaev (as many people on this forum are constantly saying) than Snyder does.  Snyder has actually done it before.  Cox's best win ever in FS is probably Karimi.  He does not have a win against anyone who would be objectively considered equal to Snyder.  It is clear bias based on results from a lower non Olympic weight  that so many on this forum are holding up Cox as the US's best chance to beat Sadulaev.  When if you consider the evidence objectively the answer to that question is Snyder.  

TBF, I think the objective answer is we just don't know.

Personally, I favored Cox, if only slightly, but that was based largely on Snyder's 2019 Worlds performance, and the subsequent Mohammadi pin.

That said, I thought he looked fantastic against Moore, and has probably improved - even significantly - at NLWC.

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1 minute ago, jross said:

I would never trip and skin my knee because my rule breaking would horrify some... they would snitch me to the enforcers... they have such an outstanding moral compass and all... don't know the difference between something important and something minor, the difference between things that are a matter of safety and stuff that’s harmless.  Cox made weight 15 minutes late... 8+ hours before he would wrestle... the mistake does not fit the punishment.  I know they don't teach situational awareness in school... Come on man!  You are one of the smart ones.

Now I am rather obtuse myself... will you explain your cement mixer comparison to the Cox situation?  

there was no punishment... there was only procedure...

as far as the comparison, it was just a simple question to establish where someone might stand on the personal accountability sliding scale...

because this whole situation falls directly under personal accountability...

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Just now, LJB said:

there was no punishment... there was only procedure...

as far as the comparison, it was just a simple question to establish where someone might stand on the personal accountability sliding scale...

because this whole situation falls directly under personal accountability...

Procedure?  If this isn't the biggest bag-over-the-head, punch-in-the-face decision that the USA Wrestling committee made...  I'd love to have them brought from their happy NWLC Snyder Fan Club over there at Olympic Trials Lane with all the other insufferables and I want them brought right here, with a big ribbon in each of their head, and I want to look each of them straight in the eye and I want to tell them what a cheap, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-@ss, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey sh!t that they are! Hallelujah! Holy sh!t! Where's the Tylenol?

The accountability here is over-the-top... those in power were 10x worse with their procedure outcome than with Cox' mistake.
 

 

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24 minutes ago, LJB said:

there was no punishment... there was only procedure...

as far as the comparison, it was just a simple question to establish where someone might stand on the personal accountability sliding scale...

because this whole situation falls directly under personal accountability...

The action here is more comparable to a kid's day at the pool.  This wasn't just any day at the pool.  The kid was looking fit, his crush was there, she was giving him flirty looks, and laughing even when he wasn't funny... his friends were there... Coldstone ice cream was available for free... there was no line at the diving board... he had the fast pass to the water slide... BUT there was this rule where adult swim occurs for a few minutes every so often.  A kid cannot be in the pool during adult swim time.  This kid knew about adult swim time... but the kid didn't get out of the pool immediately during adult swim time... it took the kid a minute... he couldn't hear so well... deaf in one ear... and the pool committee decide he cannot swim there today.  Unfortunately the next amazing pool day is in four years... 

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1 minute ago, jross said:

Procedure?  If this isn't the biggest bag-over-the-head, punch-in-the-face decision that the USA Wrestling committee made...  I'd love to have them brought from their happy NWLC Snyder Fan Club over there at Olympic Trials Lane with all the other insufferables and I want them brought right here, with a big ribbon in each of their head, and I want to look each of them straight in the eye and I want to tell them what a cheap, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-@ss, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey sh!t that they are! Hallelujah! Holy sh!t! Where's the Tylenol?

The accountability here is over-the-top... those in power were 10x worse with their procedure outcome than with Cox' mistake.
 

 

you feel better?

your silly diatribe is nowhere near as silly and offensive than a wrestler missing weight at the biggest meet of his career...

that isn't on USAW...

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Just now, LJB said:

you feel better?

your silly diatribe is nowhere near as silly and offensive than a wrestler missing weight at the biggest meet of his career...

that isn't on USAW...

Nah... Cox explained himself... he is at fault... now lets get USAW to share the minutes from their discussion.  Transparency... USAW is good... but the decisions makers failed here big time... I shouldn't be surprised... this stuff happens everywhere... worst manager I ever had was one that made decisions without explaining why... she had the power... no need to explain reasoning... just the worst... not too late for an adult to fix this... I've seen adults admit mistakes... it can happen... 

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Just now, jross said:

Nah... Cox explained himself... he is at fault... now lets get USAW to share the minutes from their discussion.  Transparency... USAW is good... but the decisions makers failed here big time... I shouldn't be surprised... this stuff happens everywhere... worst manager I ever had was one that made decisions without explaining why... she had the power... no need to explain reasoning... just the worst... not too late for an adult to fix this... I've seen adults admit mistakes... it can happen... 

USAW is under no obligation to do so...

nor should they be...

it's a very cut and dried situation for anyone who is not an excuse maker...

 

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13 minutes ago, LJB said:

USAW is under no obligation to do so...

nor should they be...

it's a very cut and dried situation for anyone who is not an excuse maker...

It is a very cut and dried situation for anyone who believes that all rules must be obeyed and enforced without question...

So many zero tolerance kinda guys... 

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33 minutes ago, jross said:

It is a very cut and dried situation for anyone who believes that all rules must be obeyed and enforced without question...

So many zero tolerance kinda guys... 

It is a rule that goes to the basic fairness of the competition, that you make weight by a designated time. Every other competitor did it. And at the Olympics it is zero tolerance; miss the weigh in deadline and you are out of luck. 

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It is a rule that goes to the basic fairness of the competition, that you make weight by a designated time. Every other competitor did it. And at the Olympics it is zero tolerance; miss the weigh in deadline and you are out of luck. 
What unfair benefit or advantage did Cox gain over his opponents?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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52 minutes ago, iha said:

It is a rule that goes to the basic fairness of the competition, that you make weight by a designated time. Every other competitor did it. And at the Olympics it is zero tolerance; miss the weigh in deadline and you are out of luck. 

And NCAAs and Big Tens and every other wrestling tournament. 

One other thing.  I keep meaning to say how just plain weird what happened is.  If I understand the facts as reported (hat tip to Willie; nice to see some energy at Intermat,  everyone reboot your subscription, since it now has value), Cox was there in easily enough time to lose what he was over. 

He gets there 40 minutes before the 8:00 cutoff and only 2 pounds over.  Not realizing that weigh-ins end at 8, he doesn't work out hard for more than half the time before 8.  

Obviously he could have easily made it had he known when he was already there and working out that 8 was the cutoff. 

That's the weird part.  I had thought he showed up close to 8 and way over, and it was too late to get down by the time he was in the arena.  

But he was in the arena, in a restricted area for wrestlers, at 7:21 (Willie reports he has to swipe a competitor's card). 

What did he make of his surroundings?  Were there no context clues between, say 7:21 and 7:45 that would have triggered a realization (before apparently KJ came shouting at him a little before 8 in a panic that 8 was the deadline) that he had to haul ass (or at least start sweating like David Taylor was there and they were wrestling for a world team spot; sorry, couldn't resist, the idea that Cox didn't sweat enough has got to be the dark humor moment of the century)? 

For instance, was he the only one working out, which might suggest that his concept of time was off?  Or were there others working out who rushed off, which might suggest there was a hurry?  Did he not see or hear the hundred something competitors lining up somewhere else?  Did he not encounter one other wrestler pounding a Gatorade because they had just made weight -- before 8:00, which he thought was the EARLIEST you could weigh in?

Obviously I don't know the layout of the facility, what room he was in, and where the weigh-in scales were, etc., but it seems really weird that he didn't see or hear anything after getting there at 7:21, well in advance, that clued him in that he was approaching this differently than every one of the scores of other competitors in what sounds like the same building and the same restricted space.

Perhaps he was oblivious to the world and those infernal earphones that all the young'uns are always sportin' have claimed their biggest victim ever.  

Edited by drag it

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