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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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Just now, VakAttack said:

Didn't we let Joey McKenna wrestle for a Junior World Team spot without ever even attempting to make the weight, after he had missed weight (actually missed weight) at a different tournament?  I remember something like that.  And as I recall he went on to miss weight at World's that year.  So mixed bag for me, I guess, but there is a precedent for them not being super hard and fast on the weigh in rules. Not the world's greatest precedent to be sure.

I don't remember what the circumstances were, but he got a best of 3 wrestle-off to make the team. Was that really because he missed weight at a qualifying tournament? I remember he wrestled the much less followed/known kid who ended up going to Clarion for college, I am blanking on his name.

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I don't remember what the circumstances were, but he got a best of 3 wrestle-off to make the team. Was that really because he missed weight at a qualifying tournament? I remember he wrestled the much less followed/known kid who ended up going to Clarion for college, I am blanking on his name.

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5043287-joey-mckenna-misses-weight-at-junior-worlds

I got curious enough to look.  Brock Zacherl, BTW.  Basically, it appears that Joey went to Senior WTTs and missed 61 kg.  They then let him wrestle 65 kg.  Then, after he didn't make the senior team, he either petitioned or was automatically granted a wrestleoff with Zacherl at 60 kg (so 1 kg less than he had already missed), who won the JWTT.  McKenna had won junior world silver the year before.  The wrestle-off was with a weight allowance (apparently at Zacherl's request).  Then Joey missed weight again at worlds.

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Cox did not make weight before 8:00 AM. 

However, USAW allowed Cox to weigh in after 8:00 AM AND HE MADE WEIGHT.  This USAW action implies the weigh-in cutoff was more of a guideline than a rule.  USAW screwed up and let the cat out of the bagCox made weight, USAW discussed, and USAW made a decision not to allow him to wrestle.  This opens the door for decision scrutiny and it led to an outcome against the Olympic Trial intent.  The decision concerns include:

  • Moral belief that rules should always be enforced as written policy dictates.
  • It defeats the outcome of identifying the best USA representative from the Olympic Trial qualified wrestlers.
  • The wrestler made weight over ten hours before he should have wrestled and this was significantly before the two-hour threshold required for the majority of qualified wrestlers.
  • The wrestler made weight immediately after discovering the weigh-in cutoff time from a USA Wrestling employee.  The wrestler and coach both state that the coach, who is a USA Wrestling employee, provided the wrestler with incorrect weigh-in cutoff information.

Further considerations

  • The wrestler does not have a history of struggles at this weight.
  • The weigh-in policy is inadequate.  The wrestler was disadvantaged by making weight after 8:00 AM since it created less time to nourish/recover his body.
  • Representing the USA during the Olympics is the pinnacle of the wrestler's career.  Taking away the opportunity from an accomplished competitor that has spent his life working for this moment is subjectively wrong for the athlete, wrong for USA Wrestling, and wrong for the country.  

Any wrestler in an identical situation should have been allowed to wrestle.  The impact of this decision has higher scrutiny given the affected wrestler is a two-time world champion that has mixed career results against the current Olympic representative and one that observers have attested as recently winning in live-wrestling drills.  To objectively send the best USA representative to the Olympics, USA Wrestling must determine a solution.  A fair proposal is to have J'Den Cox, Kyle Snyder, and *Kollin Moore wrestle a best-of-three round robin series with the best record, point-differential, and head-to-head result tie breaker criteria incorporated to determine the 97KG Olympic representative.  These three wrestlers will represent the Olympic 1, 2, and 3 team spots for 97 KG.  If J'Den Cox takes third place in the round-robin, a wrestle-off with Kyle Gadson will occur for true third.

No other weight class has similar wrestle-off considerations to revisit as a result of this one-off solution.  See notes below:

  • Mens FS | 57KG, 65KG, *74KG, 87KG, 125KG
    • *74KG: Kyle Dake was in the same seeding scenario as J'Den Cox and won the tournament.  While Kyle will have wrestled more matches than J'Den for this proposal, Kyle has nothing to gain through a round-robin proposal between he, JB, and other challenge bracket contenders.
  • Mens GR | 60KG, 67KG, 77KG, 87KG, 97KG, 130KG
  • Womens FS | 50KG, 53KG, 57KG, 62KG, 68KG, 76KG

*Fair Proposal Considerations

  • Kyle Snyder went on record as choosing to win by decision rather than working toward a technical fall against Kollin Moore in the second match.  There the match points cannot fairly be considered for point differential in a tie-breaker.  
  • If Moore beats Cox and Cox beats Snyder, Moore and Snyder must re-wrestle to determine a motivated match with true point differential.
  • Cox and Moore must wrestle off for consideration of true second and third considerations.
  • For proper motivation, Moore needs the opportunity to become the Olympic Representative.
  • Kyven Gadsen cannot increase his position above Snyder and Moore but can retain his true-third position if the spot is between himself and Cox.  Consideration may occur not to have a wrestle off for true third and to retain this spot for Gadsen as a consequence for Cox making weight late.

We also recommend USAW to revisit the weigh-in time policy to provide better consistency across wrestlers in relation to their first round of scheduled competition.  For example, wrestlers in a 10:00 AM round must weigh-in by 8:00 AM and wrestlers in a 6:30 PM round must weigh-in by 4:30 PM.  The committee may take subjective consideration into the integrity of the sport and safety of the wrestler when deciding whether to extend weigh-in times.

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3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5043287-joey-mckenna-misses-weight-at-junior-worlds

I got curious enough to look.  Brock Zacherl, BTW.  Basically, it appears that Joey went to Senior WTTs and missed 61 kg.  They then let him wrestle 65 kg.  Then, after he didn't make the senior team, he either petitioned or was automatically granted a wrestleoff with Zacherl at 60 kg (so 1 kg less than he had already missed), who won the JWTT.  McKenna had won junior world silver the year before.  The wrestle-off was with a weight allowance (apparently at Zacherl's request).  Then Joey missed weight again at worlds.

That's a different situation. He didn't miss weight in the age group in which he got a wrestle-off. It is of course favorable treatment. My nanny couldn't have petitioned and gotten the wrestle-off. But it's a different situation, not a precedent.

I am very sympathetic to your point that if we showed Cox a little love, only Cael (and probably not even Snyder) might have an issue with it. This is not a knock on Cael, by the way. It'd be his job to complain vociferously. 

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3 hours ago, drag it said:

Has anyone named a single instance in any U.S. tournament anywhere at any time at any level where someone who didn't make weight on time was allowed to wrestle?

Askren talked about it occurring with his boys at kids tournaments "Come on man... we travelled all this distance..."

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i guess what it really boils down to us if your line is on a sliding scale, where exactly do you draw it then?

if 15 minutes late is acceptable, why not 20?

if 0.4 over is acceptable why not 1kg?

i would absolutely love to see this silly bbs implode if we were to pick the team subjectively as per other countries... the amount of foot stomping and teeth nashing would be epic... not one decision would be above reproach...

is that really what you sliding rule guys want?

picking our team based off of merit and the "to the letter following" of clearly stated rules sent out months in advance is the only way to pick the team without obvious corruption being involved...

it is awful for cox... who is not only one of the best wrestlers on this planet, but, by all accounts one of the nicest and most decent people any of us will ever meet...

but...

there is an incredibly valuable lesson for every wrestler, coach, fan, youth, parent, whatever to learn here...

and it is personal accountability...

the athlete that steps on the scale has a responsibility to know all the rules with which he/she/*insert desired pronoun here* have agreed to in advance by signing up for the event...

if they put their absolute trust in someone with a slightly questionable track record then that is on them...

choose wisely...

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jross said:

Askren talked about it occurring with his boys at kids tournaments "Come on man... we travelled all this distance..."

i have been at USA sanctioned youth tourneys where there was sattelite weigh ins...

"say ins" if you will...

seeing some of the kids who "made" weight the next day was laughable...

it happens all the time in youth tourneys...

that is hardly relevant here...

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What rules do we enforce and what rules do we let slide? A slipper slope, as has been stated.  I was born on December 28. My teammate was born a week later. We were in the same grade, but every other year I had to wrestle an age group above him because I was a week older. If I had been born 3+ days later I would not have had to move up an age group. Did my 3+ days give me that much of an advantage. Should I have been given grace and allowed to wrestle down an age group?

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22 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

What rules do we enforce and what rules do we let slide? A slipper slope, as has been stated.  I was born on December 28. My teammate was born a week later. We were in the same grade, but every other year I had to wrestle an age group above him because I was a week older. If I had been born 3+ days later I would not have had to move up an age group. Did my 3+ days give me that much of an advantage. Should I have been given grace and allowed to wrestle down an age group?

You'd be wrestling 2 age groups down if you were Russian.

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Future thought... how about UWW having wrestlers get on the digital scale before they wrestle at World and Olympic Championships as part of the each match-time registration.  Talk about integrity of the sport... wouldn't it be nice if the  97KG wrestlers actually were under 97KG when they wrestled?

Get rid of all the weight shenanigans and you are DQ if you are not on weight at match time.  It is on the wrestler... if they are cutting 10lbs of water weight and cannot rehydrate... they will not perform their best... JO can't compete at 65KG... this Cox confusion situation never occurs because he can easily make and keep on weight... studies show that earlier weigh ins are dangerous and wrestlers are more likely to miss weight by larger amounts.

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6 minutes ago, jross said:

Future thought... how about UWW having wrestlers get on the digital scale before they wrestle at World and Olympic Championships as part of the each match-time registration.  Talk about integrity of the sport... wouldn't it be nice if the  97KG wrestlers actually were under 97KG when they wrestled?

Get rid of all the weight shenanigans and you are DQ if you are not on weight at match time.  It is on the wrestler... if they are cutting 10lbs of water weight and cannot rehydrate... they will not perform their best... JO can't compete at 65KG... this Cox confusion situation never occurs because he can easily make and keep on weight... studies show that earlier weigh ins are dangerous and wrestlers are more likely to miss weight by larger amounts.

make it happen...

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11 minutes ago, LJB said:

make it happen...

Ha.  I can’t even convince rule guys to stop worrying about the kids with their shoes untied.  10 more pages of drivel seems achievable... will pat my own back.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

That's a different situation. He didn't miss weight in the age group in which he got a wrestle-off. It is of course favorable treatment. My nanny couldn't have petitioned and gotten the wrestle-off. But it's a different situation, not a precedent.

I am very sympathetic to your point that if we showed Cox a little love, only Cael (and probably not even Snyder) might have an issue with it. This is not a knock on Cael, by the way. It'd be his job to complain vociferously. 

Yes, I agree it's a factually different scenario, but it's still a precedent that weigh in rules are not hard and fast in all scenarios.  It is not factually on point, but it is analogous reasoning to my point.  They make allowances for different situations.  

 

1 hour ago, LJB said:

i guess what it really boils down to us if your line is on a sliding scale, where exactly do you draw it then?

if 15 minutes late is acceptable, why not 20?

if 0.4 over is acceptable why not 1kg?

i would absolutely love to see this silly bbs implode if we were to pick the team subjectively as per other countries... the amount of foot stomping and teeth nashing would be epic... not one decision would be above reproach...

is that really what you sliding rule guys want?

picking our team based off of merit and the "to the letter following" of clearly stated rules sent out months in advance is the only way to pick the team without obvious corruption being involved...

it is awful for cox... who is not only one of the best wrestlers on this planet, but, by all accounts one of the nicest and most decent people any of us will ever meet...

but...

there is an incredibly valuable lesson for every wrestler, coach, fan, youth, parent, whatever to learn here...

and it is personal accountability...

the athlete that steps on the scale has a responsibility to know all the rules with which he/she/*insert desired pronoun here* have agreed to in advance by signing up for the event...

if they put their absolute trust in someone with a slightly questionable track record then that is on them...

choose wisely...

 

 

As long as they made the weight prior to their match, I would be fine with the guys having until then.  They're adults.  Honestly, I'm very in favor of mat-side weigh ins (separate discussion, I know), which I think would be healthier overall.  The weight classes are part of the competition.  The timing of the weigh in is not.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that we should pick the team arbitrarily.  I'm saying this is a rule that didn't need to be enforced in this way that hurts the US chances at the Olympics (potentially; again, Snyder very well could have won).  It conferred no advantage on Cox, not scheduled to wrestle until 6:30 P.M or so, to make weight at 8:13 vs. 8:00, and it conferred no disadvantage to his potential opponents.

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Catching up on the last hour or so of posts.

1.  The McKenna situation as described is not relevant.  The issue is whether someone has been allowed to wrestle in a specific tournament bracket that he entered and then failed to make weight at the appointed time.

2.  Kids tournaments aren't material.  I've listed NCAAs, Big Tens in my earlier posts as examples.  I think we can all understand what type of stuff is analogous.  Big college tournaments, state finals, world team qualifiers, stuff like that.  This was arguably the biggest domestic wrestling tournament in history.  Some weekend age group tournament that the Askren Academy kids wrestled in after a long drive through snowy midwestern cornfields (I speak from experience, those are not enjoyable rides) isn't remotely relevant.

3.  There is no cat and there is no bag that USAW put into play by letting Cox weigh in.  There was probably quite a commotion and confusion when a two time world champion who doesn't even have to cut much to get to the weight he entered didn't make it.  My guess is they knew/were told on the spot that there would be an appeal, so as a courtesy, they let said two-time world champion establish for the record the fact that he got under by the time he thought he needed to.  That sets no precedent, implies nothing, and changes no relevant facts to the question at hand -- did he make 97 before 8:00.  Which is why after conferring, they took him out of the bracket, and why I expect they will deny the appeal.

4.  The KJ-is-a-USAW-employee is by far their best argument, but I doubt it's a strong one.  My sense is that it will be very hard to establish that he was acting as USAW's agent when he told Cox that he could weigh in until 8:30.  

5.  Yes we do codify favoritism in the rules.  But that favoritism is codified in the rules pertaining to how the brackets are arranged.  There are winners and losers in every policy decision that's made when any rules are codified in any organization.  We can complain about them to try to get them changed (Dake has a good future as a lobbyist if he wants after he leaves his shoes on the mat), but if there is a clear, unambiguous rule -- such as the novel idea that at a wrestling tournament you have to make weight by a set time to wrestle -- it gets followed.  If you want to argue for prospectively, for future world team trials, adding one of the rules that people in this thread say that they would prefer, fine, knock yourself out.  But if you want to argue that someone in the biggest domestic wrestling tournament who didn't make weight, unlike every other competitor in every style in every weight class, should have been able to wrestle, or should get a second shot now, in violation of codified rules, something that has to my knowledge never happened in a serious U.S. tournament, I have to say I'm stunned by your position.  

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5043287-joey-mckenna-misses-weight-at-junior-worlds

I got curious enough to look.  Brock Zacherl, BTW.  Basically, it appears that Joey went to Senior WTTs and missed 61 kg.  They then let him wrestle 65 kg.  Then, after he didn't make the senior team, he either petitioned or was automatically granted a wrestleoff with Zacherl at 60 kg (so 1 kg less than he had already missed), who won the JWTT.  McKenna had won junior world silver the year before.  The wrestle-off was with a weight allowance (apparently at Zacherl's request).  Then Joey missed weight again at worlds.

I thought it was USA Wrestling's policy that Junior World medalists could try their hand at the Senior level tournament and would be allowed a special wrestle off for the Junior spot if they liked--since the two tournaments take place on the same weekend. IIRC, Daton Fix got the same treatment as McKenna just a couple years later. FWIW, I could be remembering very wrong. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, goStanford18 said:

I thought it was USA Wrestling's policy that Junior World medalists could try their hand at the Senior level tournament and would be allowed a special wrestle off for the Junior spot if they liked--since the two tournaments take place on the same weekend. IIRC, Daton Fix got the same treatment as McKenna just a couple years later. FWIW, I could be remembering very wrong. 

 

 

I think that's right.  My point about it was that the junior weight was 60 kg, and he missed 61 at seniors.  So he made the 60 kg junior world team without ever once (that year) making the weight.  Now there were reasons and a confluence of events, but...

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

That's a different situation. He didn't miss weight in the age group in which he got a wrestle-off. It is of course favorable treatment. My nanny couldn't have petitioned and gotten the wrestle-off. But it's a different situation, not a precedent.

I am very sympathetic to your point that if we showed Cox a little love, only Cael (and probably not even Snyder) might have an issue with it. This is not a knock on Cael, by the way. It'd be his job to complain vociferously. 

Nor in this case would your nanny have been allowed to weigh in and record a weight after 8:00, like Cox was.  I suspect they probably gave Cox a courtesy that they wouldn't have given an unseeded Greco guy given who he is in order to let him make a record for his appeal, an action which I don't find problematic under the circumstances.  But that appeal, though not frivolous because he has an argument regarding KJ's USAW status that should be given due consideration, should be denied absent the establishment of some surprising facts regarding KJ's role at the tournament. 

But neither the McKenna wrestle off nor Cox being allowed to record a weight after close of business are anything like allowing an entrant to a tournament to actually wrestle after failing to make weight on time, an incredible result which I'm still waiting for a single example of in a big tournament.

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1. Well argued as always.
2.  Agree to disagree.
3.  Y'all let us know when you've got an example of a person in a serious tournament on U.S. soil being allowed to compete after not making weight by the stated close of weigh in.  

Oh thank goodness. I was just about to reply to your message before this with, man, pitting your argument supporting this decision against a lawyer’s with the opposing view..losing battle.

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16 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

How much over would be ok since he doesn't wrestle until 6:30? 10 lbs as long as he cuts and is on weight at 3pm?

I am amazed at how many on here (who have wrestled) support Cox. I am sure everyone has received that same grace period when overweight at the time of weigh in.

I agree, they are either Missouri people, mad we missed out on the Snyder Cox match or just a Cox fanboy.

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6 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I think that's right.  My point about it was that the junior weight was 60 kg, and he missed 61 at seniors.  So he made the 60 kg junior world team without ever once (that year) making the weight.  Now there were reasons and a confluence of events, but...

That really is not a precedent though. Whether he made weight or not at a different weight class in a ifferent age group has no bearing on the wrestle-off he was granted. That’s like Suriqno being younger, missing the trials due to COVID, and then deciding he wanted a shot at a berth in a slightly lighter junior weight class because it was decided beforehand that junior eligible competitors who opted to compete at the seniors but didn’t qualify would be allowed wrestle-offs. 

The fact that McKenna didn’t make the team as a senior is the relevant fact, not that he didn’t make it because he came in too fat. No rule was broken. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Is the USA Olympic Trials under the control of UWW or only USA Wrestling?  It is a domestic tourny rather than International and so I assume USA Wrestling rules apply. The USA Wrestling Rule and Guideline book says

Quote

*The official UWW rule book supersedes this publication at all times. 


If UWW...

  • The weigh-in for each category always takes place on the day before the beginning of the competition concerned and lasts 30 minutes.
Edited by jross

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USA Wrestling has one rule of interest for the weight situation.

  • All Senior, UWW Cadet, UWW Junior and U23 events have adopted a two-day weigh-in format.  The first weigh-in will occur the morning of the first day of competition and shall last 30 minutes; all athletes must attain scratch weight.  The second weigh-in will occur the morning of the second day of competition and will only involve the competitors still active in the weight category;  this weigh-in shall only last for 15 minutes, unless otherwise noted.  Athletes must attain scratch weight for the second weigh-in. 

It does not state that the weigh in will be the same for all wrestlers.  A USA Wrestling employee provided a different time in the morning and Cox made scratch weight during the time he was provided.

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Other interesting weigh-in procedure questions to rule guys...

Does it matter if wrestlers perform drastic weight reduction by means of dehydration before the weigh in procedure time?  Plenty of wrestlers are admittingly doing this...

  • Any means of drastic weight reduction is strictly prohibited. The practice of dehydration by use of rubber, plastic or rubberized nylon suits, hot rooms, hot showers, hot boxes, saunas, steam rooms, heating devices, diuretics, emetics, laxatives, excessive food or fluid restriction and self induced vomiting is a violation of USA Wrestling rules.  Violation of these rules shall cause the individual(s) to be disqualified from the competition.  Athletes may not leave the weigh-in area or initiate any activity for means of weight reduction.

How about non-abrasive facial hair at the senior level?  

  • Contestants must be in perfect physical condition, with their fingernails cut very short.  A wrestler’s face and/or head hair (if short in appearance) must be cleanly shaven or have growth that is non-abrasive.  

 

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