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J'Den Cox Misses Weight

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2 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I heard that the cleaning lady at the USA wrestling HQ may have given Dake the wrong time.

and yet he still made it there on time...

functional time patterns FTMFW...

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25 minutes ago, mspart said:

That was not my understanding.  But if he made weight, then I stand corrected.

mspart

Yes he made weight and couldn't recover.  It was a subject of debate on the forum, some said he let everyone down, others defended him because he actually made the weight.

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14 minutes ago, jross said:

Correct on #2 being an opinion... further it is my opinion that mindlessly following rules is the coward's wayWith clear instructions, you do not have to take personal responsibility for your actions.  You do as you are told and justify with "I was just following the rules."  When nobody can explain a single advantage for the rule as it applies to the Cox situation... what do you have an example of?

Huh??  Seriously you think that??  Wow...so who gets to pick and choose what rules can and should be followed and which ones are up to the individual to decide if they follow them.  You follow the rules and then go through the necessary steps to change the rule if you think it is stupid.  Second bold...again...seriously?!?!?  That is wrong on so many levels and I can't believe you actually believe there are times when you have to take zero responsibility for your actions....wow...

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20 minutes ago, mspart said:

It is possible that 1 is true.  That is the basis of Cox's appeal I'm sure.  Number 2 is not true.  It is your opinion that a strict weigh in time is a bad rule.  This has been a long standing rule in any sport with weight classifications.  You make the weight when you are supposed to make the weight.  He made himself ineligible by not making weight. 

mspart

Many more than 2 possibilities.  

If you want to follow some rules but not others who decides which rules are breakable,?

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10 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Huh??  Seriously you think that??  Wow...so who gets to pick and choose what rules can and should be followed and which ones are up to the individual to decide if they follow them.  You follow the rules and then go through the necessary steps to change the rule if you think it is stupid.  Second bold...again...seriously?!?!?  That is wrong on so many levels and I can't believe you actually believe there are times when you have to take zero responsibility for your actions....wow...

nobody wants jross in their fox hole...

**yikes**

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So again Jross, how many points would you give for a takedown?  1, 2, or 3?  After all it is cowardly to always give 2 points.  Does it depend on how hard it was worked for?  Depends on how you felt that day about mindlessly following scoring rules being cowardly?  You are not consistent in your thought.  Now I assume you agree that a takedown is 2 points, not 1 or 3 depending on the uncowardliness of the ref and table.  You, I assume, follow those rules.  You follow the rules no matter what.  In fact, I'll bet you do not take out everyone in front of you at the store checkout line, because standing there is a waste of your time following stupid rules and you are definitely not cowardly. 

Granted it is your opinion, but it is not shared by many.  Cox was in clear violation of an eligibility rule.  Period.

mspart

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12 minutes ago, jross said:

Blindly following rules has and always will be stupid.  Rules are not tailored to specifically fit all circumstances.  Rules can prevent you from doing the right thing.  Sometimes the rules need to be broken to do the right thing... e.g. treat an uninsured patient.  Cox should have been allowed to wrestle even if he made weight at 9 AM because it was the right thing for fairly determining the best wrestler.  In no way was Cox at an advantage for making weight later.  Its okay to be a rules guy... but don't be a blind rules guy.

I think Cox has a case... he made scratch weight during the morning of the first day of competition during the 30 minute window that USA Wrestling provided him.  Why wouldn't he believe the USA Wrestling employee that provided this information?  

There are two realistic possibilities here

  1. USA Wrestling provided incorrect weigh-in information to a single wrestler, which enabled the wrong outcome, and they will not do anything about it.  
  2. USA Wrestling allowed a rule to enable the wrong outcome and they will not do anything about it.  

 

I'm not blindly following anything. If it was such a bad rule, why has it really not changed in a material way pretty much in the history of ever?  There has always been a weigh-in time. You've always had to make weight by or during a specific time period. Many alternatives have been looked at and discussed but the reason it hasn't change and probably never will is that quite frankly it is the best way to conduct it when you look at objectively.

I'm guessing you've never ran an event/tournament. I have. Granted, not the Olympic Team Trials but things like Junior level state championships which were qualifiers for duals and national teams. Giving 1 person an exception or exemption on-site that deviates from rules/procedures is not very advisable. All it does is create a $hitstorm. Favoritism whether real or perceived is bad. 

But hey, the one thing you're almost right about is the last 7 words of your 2 possibilities. Because right now there really isn't anything to do anything about. Because he didn't make weight. Please note, being down to weight at a time outside of when weigh-ins are is not making weight. 

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42 minutes ago, jross said:

Correct on #2 being an opinion... further it is my opinion that mindlessly following rules is the coward's way.  With clear instructions, you do not have to take personal responsibility for your actions.  You do as you are told and justify with "I was just following the rules."  When nobody can explain a single advantage for the rule as it applies to the Cox situation... what do you have an example of?

"With clear instructions, you do not have to take personal responsibility for your actions."  So that's your basis for all this then. Got it. Because J'den had clear instructions and rules he doesn't have to take personal responsibility for his actions. Again, got it. 

I'm not sure what surprises me more. That this whole fiasco happened or that I'm sitting here replying to your wrongness. 

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i can say without any hesitation, if cox or any members here or anyone else had read the rules previous to friday morning and then had an issue with the weigh in rules and then went off about them prior, i would have much respect for their opinions as opposed to crying about it afterwards when you/they did not get the outcome they wanted...

dake caught a metirc fuk ton of sh!t about whining about the trials process for years and now it has been adjusted to what we all agree is a much more fair way of handling it with each competitor having a full nights rest before the best 2 out of 3...

you guys should have been whining about the weigh in procedure for the last 100 years and maybe you could have got somehting changed that would have prevented an athlete not making weight when he was required...

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31 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Huh??  Seriously you think that??  Wow...so who gets to pick and choose what rules can and should be followed and which ones are up to the individual to decide if they follow them.  You follow the rules and then go through the necessary steps to change the rule if you think it is stupid.  Second bold...again...seriously?!?!?  That is wrong on so many levels and I can't believe you actually believe there are times when you have to take zero responsibility for your actions....wow...

USA Wrestling executive committee should decide how the rules are interpreted and applied. 

Cox is at fault and this is not dismissed. 

Rules guys have time and time again enforced rules blindly and sometimes knowingly follow rules when they do not agree with them (examples plenty in schooling, military, police, sports, etc.)  And when you follow rules that you do not agree with... sometimes you are a coward.  To me, USA W took the coward's way out by not allowing Cox to wrestle in this situation.
 

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7 minutes ago, jross said:

USA Wrestling executive committee should decide how the rules are interpreted and applied. 

Cox is at fault and this is not dismissed. 

Rules guys have time and time again enforced rules blindly and sometimes knowingly follow rules when they do not agree with them (examples plenty in schooling, military, police, sports, etc.)  And when you follow rules that you do not agree with... sometimes you are a coward.  To me, USA W took the coward's way out by not allowing Cox to wrestle in this situation.
 

there have been times in my life i wished i lived in your world, but, i am always ultimately thankful i do not...

point being, i can live with myself no matter the outcome...

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53 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Maybe rhe other 196 wrestlers chose competent coaches? Choosing the right coach is part of it

How many wrestlers had the direct byes to the semis (Friday evening session)?  I think it was just Dake and Cox.
How many wrestlers had direct byes to finals (Saturday evening session)?    I think this was 10.

So one out of twelve wrestlers were late... *12 were not schedule to wrestle for 10+ or 24+ hours after the Friday weigh in period... I'm not sure of the story but didn't Tamyra Mensah-Stock show up like 5 minutes before 8AM on Friday... rush over and make weight?  Its silly to consider that TMS might not have been able to wrestle... if she was 5 minutes later and wasn't scheduled to wrestle until Saturday night.  

Pyles today said that if Synder was not in the Trials... and Cox missed... and Moore won the trials... that he would believe the best thing to do is to have a wrestle off.  He can't explain it... being a rules guy... but he admits it.

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43 minutes ago, cwillaert said:

...Giving 1 person an exception or exemption on-site that deviates from rules/procedures is not very advisable. All it does is create a $hitstorm. Favoritism whether real or perceived is bad. ...

There is a difference between the Olympic Trials and all other domestic events.  Subjectivity is difficult for rules guy.  That's okay.

Edited by jross

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46 minutes ago, cwillaert said:

"With clear instructions, you do not have to take personal responsibility for your actions."  So that's your basis for all this then. Got it. Because J'den had clear instructions and rules he doesn't have to take personal responsibility for his actions. Again, got it. 

You must not understand the rational behind a different perspective... thus you must respond and convince... to win the argument... because you cannot understand how dense I am... you cannot explain it... something weird is going on... how can someone believe something so different... everything must always be black or white... never black and white... its okay rules guy... I understand your perspective because I too am a rules guy when I don't have the energy or the desire to think deeper...

J'den is accountable for missing the weight... hell USA W maybe should not support him with funds on the Olympic team... consequences are real... I'm saying the USA Wrestling Executive Committee is not taking personal responsibility for their decision... they made the cowards decision because "the rules."  It has nothing to do with the integrity of the sport.  USA W should have allowed Cox to wrestle AND they still have a chance to correct this.  If the arbitrator rules in favor of Cox, you will watch his matches and you will shed zero injustice tears if Cox becomes the rep... am I wrong?  

Edited by jross

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5 minutes ago, jross said:

You must not understand the rational behind a different perspective... thus you must respond and convince... to win the argument... because you cannot understand how dense I am... you cannot explain it... something weird is going on... how can someone believe something so different... everything must always be black or white... never black and white... its okay rules guy... I understand your perspective because I too am a rules guy when I don't have the energy or the desire to think deeper...

J'den is accountable for missing the weight... hell USA W maybe should not support him with funds on the Olympic team... consequences are real... I'm saying the USA Wrestling Executive Committee is not taking personal responsibility for their decision... they made the cowards decision because "the rules."  It has nothing to do with the integrity of the sport.  USA W should have allowed Cox to wrestle AND they still have a chance to correct this.  If the arbitrator rules in favor of Cox, you will watch his matches and you will shed zero injustice tears if Cox becomes the rep... am I wrong?  

If an arbitrator hears this and determines that due to some great injustice or violation of procedures he should get a wrestle-off I will absolutely watch. And if he were to end up on the USA Olympic team I will absolutely cheer for him in Tokyo, just like I will cheer for every other American that steps on the mat with a USA singlet on. 

This isn't about perspective. I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm having a conversation, somewhat of a debate and mostly for my own entertainment purposes. Conversation between people of differing viewpoints or opinions. Things are not always black and white, sometimes they are both black and white and sometimes they're gray. The rules regarding weigh-ins are what they are so that there is not gray. 

USAW gets hammered on by so many people for so many things that they shouldn't get hammered for. Some things they deserve to get hammered for as well. Sorry but based on any facts put out there by you or anybody else right now, I don't think USAW did anything wrong here. But if it gets to an arbitrator, they will determine that, not me. And they'll do it with more information than you or I have so I'll trust their decision. The information they do have will be that he didn't make weight and will definitely be a consideration in their decision making process. 

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one thing that i have found is almost across the board with the anti-rules guys are that they rarely actually know the rules... understand the rules... or even attempt to keep up with the rules...

that **** takes effort...

**shrugs** 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

one thing that i have found is almost across the board with the anti-rules guys are that they rarely actually know the rules... understand the rules... or even attempt to keep up with the rules...

FIFY 

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2 minutes ago, jross said:

FIFY 

ha...

i do not necessarily disagree, but, as with everything...

there are levels to this **** and scales slide one way or the other for very specific reasons...

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rule
[ro͞ol]
NOUN
rules (plural noun) · Rules (noun)
  1. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.
    "the rules of the game were understood"
    synonyms:
    regulation · ruling · directive · order · court order · act · law · bylaw · statute · 
  2. control of or dominion over an area or people.
    "the revolution brought an end to British rule"
    synonyms:
    control · jurisdiction · command · power · sway · dominion · government · 
  3. (the rule)
    the normal or customary state of things.
    "such accidents are the exception rather than the rule"
    synonyms:
    procedure · practice · protocol · convention · standard · norm · form · routine · custom · habit · wont · praxis
  4. a strip of wood or other rigid material used for measuring length or marking straight lines; a ruler.
    synonyms:
    system · standard · units · scale
VERB
rules (third person present)
  1. exercise ultimate power or authority over (an area and its people).
    "Latin America today is ruled by elected politicians" · 
    synonyms:
    govern · preside over · control · have control of · be in control of · lead · 
  2. (ruled)
    make parallel lines across (paper).
    "a sheet of ruled paper"
    synonyms:
    ruled · feint · scored · striped · stripy · banded · streaked · striated
  3. pronounce authoritatively and legally to be the case.
    "a federal court ruled that he was unfairly dismissed from his job"
    synonyms:
    decree · order · direct · pronounce · make a judgment
     
     
    I don't see guidelines to be interpreted to satisfy fans desire for a different outcome anywhere in that definition.
Edited by JeanGuy
add to sentence

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1 hour ago, jross said:

How many wrestlers had the direct byes to the semis (Friday evening session)?  I think it was just Dake and Cox.
How many wrestlers had direct byes to finals (Saturday evening session)?    I think this was 10.

So one out of twelve wrestlers were late... *12 were not schedule to wrestle for 10+ or 24+ hours after the Friday weigh in period... I'm not sure of the story but didn't Tamyra Mensah-Stock show up like 5 minutes before 8AM on Friday... rush over and make weight?  Its silly to consider that TMS might not have been able to wrestle... if she was 5 minutes later and wasn't scheduled to wrestle until Saturday night.  

Pyles today said that if Synder was not in the Trials... and Cox missed... and Moore won the trials... that he would believe the best thing to do is to have a wrestle off.  He can't explain it... being a rules guy... but he admits it.

It doesn't matter about buys.  Everyone weighed in.  196. Not 10.  

Pyles comments are not relevant because Snyder not Moore won. 

You say it would have taken courage to go against rules.  I disagree in this case.  I think it took courage to stand by rules.  I dobt think you considered that.  The disqualified a world champion because he didn't follow rules.  To me that took guts.  I think you have it all wrong. 

I mean no disrespect. I want you to know that I have read what you wrote on this forum. And you have a way of talking down to others.  When someone disagrees with you you automatically think its because they don't have the ability to fathom your points.  You need to realize your points aren't tough to understand and it is possible for someone to completely understand your reasoning and also reject it.  

With all due respect; you come off as someone who really wants to be seen as the smartest guy in the room.  Maybe you are.  I dont know you.  But your attempts are causing you to seem arrogant.  I'm not calling you arrogant. But that is how you are coming across to me.  We all have personality blindspots.  

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Cox needed a little MacArthur action by USA W at the trials... The general said that rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind.  

MacArthur was forced to accept rules of engagement that seemed almost stupid beyond belief.  The General described the orders from Washington that he was expected to obey.

Quote

I asked for the bridges across the Yaloo to be bombed, my request was denied, I asked for permission to pursue the enemy into their sanctuaries, that request was denied. I requested that we be allowed to bomb the war supporting factories in China, that request was denied!  Do you know what they told me?  They told me that... "You may bomb the Southern half of the bridge only!  In all military history, no commander has ever received such an imbecilic order!  In all my years of military experience I have never been taught how to bomb half a bridge!  This isn't war, it's half war!  It is an immoral compromise with evil!  The longer we continue this half hearted struggle, the more men we'll lose!

DQ an Olympic Trial competitor's chance because of 15 minutes?  That was stupid beyond belief.  There is no substitute for Olympic victory... but the rules.
 

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49 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:
rule
[ro͞ol]
NOUN
rules (plural noun) · Rules (noun)
  1. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.
    "the rules of the game were understood"
    synonyms:
    regulation · ruling · directive · order · court order · act · law · bylaw · statute · 
  2. control of or dominion over an area or people.
    "the revolution brought an end to British rule"
    synonyms:
    control · jurisdiction · command · power · sway · dominion · government · 
  3. (the rule)
    the normal or customary state of things.
    "such accidents are the exception rather than the rule"
    synonyms:
    procedure · practice · protocol · convention · standard · norm · form · routine · custom · habit · wont · praxis
  4. a strip of wood or other rigid material used for measuring length or marking straight lines; a ruler.
    synonyms:
    system · standard · units · scale
VERB
rules (third person present)
  1. exercise ultimate power or authority over (an area and its people).
    "Latin America today is ruled by elected politicians" · 
    synonyms:
    govern · preside over · control · have control of · be in control of · lead · 
  2. (ruled)
    make parallel lines across (paper).
    "a sheet of ruled paper"
    synonyms:
    ruled · feint · scored · striped · stripy · banded · streaked · striated
  3. pronounce authoritatively and legally to be the case.
    "a federal court ruled that he was unfairly dismissed from his job"
    synonyms:
    decree · order · direct · pronounce · make a judgment
     
    *civilized rule guidline - allow reasonable accomodation for people who have proven themselves to be the best in the world
     
     
    I don't see guidelines to be interpreted to satisfy fans desire for a different outcome anywhere in that definition.

It is right there in black and white.  Surprised you missed it. 

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38 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

But your attempts are causing you to seem arrogant. 

I'm definitely being an ape on this topic... I'm angry... If you watch recent podcasts, you can hear my opinion sharing peers referred to as morons... you can read some of that on this thread... none of you/us are morons for our opinions... I chose to borrow some of LBJ's communication style... he makes one mad... he condescends... he disrespects... he makes you think... he normally communicates with a ring of uncomfortable truth...  I want to mute him but wont... I've touched a nerve on this forum while also getting folks to care and talk... 38 pages in now...

I like rules and follow most rules.  Rules provide order and efficiency.  No thinking is required to follow rules and this is the beauty of it... it makes decisions and actions easy.  However rules do lead to bad outcomes.  It happens at work for rules that I make and rules that I follow.  When people question rules, we slow down in the short-term, explain the intent, remove, and improve the rules.  We also go back and change wrong outcomes when possible.  We don't behave like apes when discussing them as we normally have the direct ear of the person who considers the change.  I'm hopeful that someone somewhere keeps pushing new thoughts to the important people actually considering this.  There needs to be more public advocates to allow Cox to wrestle off.  It takes more courage to break from normal order... DQ Cox is the normal order... making a situational exception because of the context takes courage... as evidenced by the extreme minority opinion that is pro-Cox opportunity.

Just as folks make bold statements that the world is wrong for considering to allow Cox to wrestle because accountability & rules, I believe the world is wrong for not considering it.  If anything, there is some fun with exploring the conversation a 100 different ways.  I don't think trolling and condescending is my future... I might back off that approach now.

Edited by jross

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3 minutes ago, jross said:

I'm definitely being an ape on this topic... I'm angry... If you watch recent podcasts, you can hear my opinion sharing peers as morons... you can read some of that on this thread... none of you/us are morons for our opinions... I chose to borrow some of LBJ's communication style... he makes one mad... he condescends... he disrespects... he makes you think... he normally communicates with a ring of uncomfortable truth...  I want to mute him but wont... I've touched a nerve on this forum while also getting folks to care and talk... 38 pages in now...

i have squabbled with more than i should have on this bbs for not necessarily altruist reasons...

jross gets it... i have no problem with him... even considering how wrong he is on this...

anyone who has a problem with him, his stance, or the way he is approaching this topic clearly has an ego problem...

as in a tiny little one...

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