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3 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I thought he had haters because he had a drug suspension?

The JO haters venn diagram has many sets and intersections

Weight management ∩ Match Strategy ∩ USADA Suspension ∩ Cowboys haters ∩ Inked up ∩ Stieber / Zain / Yianni / McKenna fans ∩ Nike fanboys

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1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

You have to give it to the guy for taking years of criticism of his match style and then successfully reinventing his entire match strategy at 31 years old. Didn't get the job done yesterday but overall I think it has been implemented very well.

He did exactly what his haters asked him to do, so it would be grossly unfair to then fault him for executing the hater's strategy to a T.

I've praised his reinvention toward match control, tactics, and situational awareness on multiple threads. That said, saying the pendulum swung too far yesterday is a fair criticism. There was generally a pattern of a laissez-faire attitude toward stepouts and an apparent approach of opening up in the last minute that could have started a minute earlier. Saying he didnt give it everything is stupid, but I'm sure he'd say he could have handled things with better awareness.

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If it is comepletely out of the question for a wrestler to 1) consider weighing in two days in a row and 2) work for points for more than one minute of match time:  maybe it isn't the correct weight class.

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15 minutes ago, jchapman said:

If it is comepletely out of the question for a wrestler to 1) consider weighing in two days in a row and 2) work for points for more than one minute of match time:  maybe it isn't the correct weight class.

I suspect this whole JO-weighs-185-pounds-in-the-off-season is BS. He didn't look any bigger than the guys he was wrestling and it's pretty standard for college 149 guys to wrestle 143 in freestyle.

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agree,  the Pole it was stated is a 70KG guy who made the cut to the Olympic weight as well, so let's not blame the cut.

i rewatched the first step out, and as somebody already said, JO makes little effort to stay on the mat.

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30 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I suspect this whole JO-weighs-185-pounds-in-the-off-season is BS. He didn't look any bigger than the guys he was wrestling and it's pretty standard for college 149 guys to wrestle 143 in freestyle.

The only issue with that theory is that it was JO himself who said he got to the mid-180s in the summer and was something like 174 eleven weeks before the trials.

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I suspect this whole JO-weighs-185-pounds-in-the-off-season is BS. He didn't look any bigger than the guys he was wrestling and it's pretty standard for college 149 guys to wrestle 143 in freestyle.

You have no clue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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30 minutes ago, lu_alum said:


You have no clue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

We've already established that you don't need to have no clue on these hear forums.  

Edited by ionel

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1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The only issue with that theory is that it was JO himself who said he got to the mid-180s in the summer and was something like 174 eleven weeks before the trials.

So no one tells tales about himself?

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Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

If you don't want to believe what someone says about himself, I can't make you. 

I see no reason to necessarily believe what someone says about himself. People lie about themselves all the time. I find this story implausible no matter who is telling it.

JO is a world class athlete. I assume he works out year round, even if he works harder at certain times. I don't see how someone who does that and who know he will have to make weight and who has even a modest amount of self-discipline will gain 40 or 50 pounds in less than a year. It's not impossible, just extremely unlikely.  So I don't take JO's word on this one.

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2 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I see no reason to necessarily believe what someone says about himself. People lie about themselves all the time. I find this story implausible no matter who is telling it.

JO is a world class athlete. I assume he works out year round, even if he works harder at certain times. I don't see how someone who does that and who know he will have to make weight and who has even a modest amount of self-discipline will gain 40 or 50 pounds in less than a year. It's not impossible, just extremely unlikely.  So I don't take JO's word on this one.

By your logic I should assume you are lying about not having a reason to necessarily believe what someone says about himself.

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Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

By your logic I should assume you are lying about not having a reason to necessarily believe what someone says about himself.

That is not my "logic." My statement is based on experience. That JO could gain 30-50 pounds in the off-season is not logical or illogical. It is implausible based on knowledge of who he is (a world class athlete) and that athlete have at least average self-discipline. If you told me an NFL lineman gained 40 pounds in the off-season, I could believe it, though I bet that few do. But for a lightweight athlete to do that is a sport where making weight is part of the game-- no way.

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Been out of pocket for a few days (finally traveling again!) so just watched the match and skimmed the different threads.  

He lost an Olympic spot on a step out which I don't think you'd see in a decent Cadet match. (The second stepout was pretty weak, too.)

I just don't know what to think.

First off, it's just sad.  To lose a dream based on something that should never have happened.

Should JO get pilloried?  I don't know.  His performance for the whole first period was, to the eye test, indifferent; he basically gave away three points.  But he did wrestle beautifully in the second period, so it's not like he dogged it.  Was he nervous, was the moment too big for him? 

I can't even come up with a theory which makes sense.  I don't see it as weight cutting and trying to conserve energy -- that doesn't explain him seeming not to care one iota about giving up a free point at the beginning, no energy saved there.

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It kills me to feel a vibe on here that JO owes US wrestling fans something for this result.   

Having been a part of someone else's journey to an Olympic spot, previously, I have always felt that there could be room for criticism for athletes who show a lack of dedication around preparation for an event like this (I don't think that's the case here with JO) but any disappointment in their actual performance is FOR them and not WITH them. 

From my spot on the couch, JO doesn't owe anyone of us anything regarding his performance.   He went on the mat looking to do the best he could to achieve his dream to wrestle in the Olympics and came up short.   No doubt he has disappointment, and will second guess what he did, but he doesn't owe me anything.  I feel terrible for him.

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1 hour ago, Oily Bohunk said:

It kills me to feel a vibe on here that JO owes US wrestling fans something for this result.   

Having been a part of someone else's journey to an Olympic spot, previously, I have always felt that there could be room for criticism for athletes who show a lack of dedication around preparation for an event like this (I don't think that's the case here with JO) but any disappointment in their actual performance is FOR them and not WITH them. 

From my spot on the couch, JO doesn't owe anyone of us anything regarding his performance.   He went on the mat looking to do the best he could to achieve his dream to wrestle in the Olympics and came up short.   No doubt he has disappointment, and will second guess what he did, but he doesn't owe me anything.  I feel terrible for him.

To the extent that this reacts to personal attacks and obvious Oliver-hater posts that are trying to fit the loss into a negative narrative, I agree.  But I think that the absolutist standard that you are arguing for here is an overreach.  I take you to be saying we can't criticize and be disappointed in a poorly executed match unless we can prove a lack of dedication around preparation.  I feel terribly for Oliver, and said in my post that the only thing I can say for sure is that it's sad that he's lost his dream.  But your standard defeats the purpose of this message board, every sports talk show, and the majority of public discourse about sports, and a substantial part of most fans' interest in following sports.

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7 hours ago, drag it said:

Been out of pocket for a few days (finally traveling again!) so just watched the match and skimmed the different threads.  

He lost an Olympic spot on a step out which I don't think you'd see in a decent Cadet match. (The second stepout was pretty weak, too.)

I just don't know what to think.

First off, it's just sad.  To lose a dream based on something that should never have happened.

Should JO get pilloried?  I don't know.  His performance for the whole first period was, to the eye test, indifferent; he basically gave away three points.  But he did wrestle beautifully in the second period, so it's not like he dogged it.  Was he nervous, was the moment too big for him? 

I can't even come up with a theory which makes sense.  I don't see it as weight cutting and trying to conserve energy -- that doesn't explain him seeming not to care one iota about giving up a free point at the beginning, no energy saved there.

He’s scared of getting tired. 

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12 hours ago, NJDan said:

That is not my "logic." My statement is based on experience. That JO could gain 30-50 pounds in the off-season is not logical or illogical. It is implausible based on knowledge of who he is (a world class athlete) and that athlete have at least average self-discipline. If you told me an NFL lineman gained 40 pounds in the off-season, I could believe it, though I bet that few do. But for a lightweight athlete to do that is a sport where making weight is part of the game-- no way.

Your skepticism isn't warranted here, as he was at a camp with another US wrestling person (JB) who has confirmed that JO was 1kg (2lbs) bigger than him leading into his camp for OTT.

I'm sure you'll just say JB was lying though, too.

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Him wrestling and losing ... sucks.  But ...I’m not mad at him.  I’m sorry for him.

Now, making no attempt to get bronze to be in line if something goes wrong with top 2 ... that is making me scratch my head.  He is wrestling for the USA.  He needs to do all he can to get us this qualification spot.  That includes picking himself up and getting that bronze.  If this was a case of being mopey ... then I’ll be pissed.  Admittedly I’ve had a hard time tracking what is going on though.  Anyone have the details on this aspect?

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5 minutes ago, nom said:

Him wrestling and losing ... sucks.  But ...I’m not mad at him.  I’m sorry for him.

Now, making no attempt to get bronze to be in line if something goes wrong with top 2 ... that is making me scratch my head.  He is wrestling for the USA.  He needs to do all he can to get us this qualification spot.  That includes picking himself up and getting that bronze.  If this was a case of being mopey ... then I’ll be pissed.  Admittedly I’ve had a hard time tracking what is going on though.  Anyone have the details on this aspect?

I think the safest bet to make, being that he was there as a USAW wrestling/employee was that he was dinged up and it wasn't something that was evident to him or the coaching staff prior to leaving.  At the very least nobody thought it would effect his performance(s).  As far as I can tell it didn't and going off of more than one interview leading up to it his weight was on point.

Until he comes out and says otherwise, I'm not going to sit here and assume it was weight management issues or morale issues after the semis loss.  He was there as an employee.

It's easy to troll morons, and look the part of a moron, but my actual stance is I hope he is healthy enough to compete at our WTT this fall.  I still think he is our current best option to medal at 65kg.

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