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Katie

JB fan support thread

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3 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

It’s not just about who they lost to it’s who they beat. One of Smith’s golds was vs a Canadian who never placed before or after that worlds. The multiple weights and Russians bit is a HUGE factor. Not only did JB have to deal with the Soviet breakup but he had to deal with Russians transferring all over the world to other countries. JBs first gold came against a 2 time defending world champ in the quarters!

I already acknowledged that was a significant factor in the consideration. But on the flip side, that doesn’t erase bad losses nor does it make Smith less good. Smith went unscored upon in both Olympic finals, I believe. He was the FILA master of technique over any Russian or anybody at any weight. The Russian coaches would study him constantly and never figured him out.I think JB is the clear #2, but all things considered I don’t think you can say he had a better career than Smith. 

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9 minutes ago, headache said:

Smith's international freestyle record was 100-5. His last competition was the 1992 Olympics. He was a few days short of his 27th birthday when he won his sixth consecutive gold.

Good correction. I wasn’t sure about the age. i thought he took the Mark Hall pre-college redshirts but I was wrong.

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38 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

How many times did Smith lose and how many times did JB lose? And how good were the guys he lost to? Sarkissian was an absolute monster. The reason he doesn’t have some yellow hardware himself is because of Smith. JB lost to Marable and got teched by Bekzod (he’s not a slouch but téchese). Both apuren the time of his peak.

i already said the Beloglazov win was less significant but threw it in there because of Sergei’s unique credentials. 

I do agree with that Smith is still the best US wrestler ever, but Smith lost to John Fisher domestically. It is really close. Also JB wrestled during the best of three period rules which promoted upsets by its design

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5 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I do agree with that Smith is still the best US wrestler ever, but Smith lost to John Fisher domestically. It is really close. Also JB wrestled during the best of three period rules which promoted upsets by its design

Fisher was no slouch. I think that’s a higher quality loss than Marable, if we’re going to compare losses. Fisher was a 4xAA and at or near the top of Mivcigan record books in some categories and was an OTT finalist twice, once to Smith and once to Brands. He placed in the toughest tournament in the world at the time (Tbilisi) and repped us at a bunch of World Cups. I forget how many times he medaled there but more than once. He beat Takahiro Wafa, a World medalist (forget whether he became medalist before or after that loss). Marable was like 4 or something in the US ladder at 74 kg?

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43 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I already acknowledged that was a significant factor in the consideration. But on the flip side, that doesn’t erase bad losses nor does it make Smith less good. Smith went unscored upon in both Olympic finals, I believe. He was the FILA master of technique over any Russian or anybody at any weight. The Russian coaches would study him constantly and never figured him out.I think JB is the clear #2, but all things considered I don’t think you can say he had a better career than Smith. 

Unscored upon in finals but he lost in the 92 Olympics. Had that happened to Burroughs he’d have been out. No longer 2 time Olympic champ or 6 in a row.  I love John Smith but IMO what Burroughs accomplished is much more difficult. 

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Just now, AnklePicker said:

Unscored upon in finals but he lost in the 92 Olympics. Had that happened to Burroughs he’d have been out. No longer 2 time Olympic champ or 6 in a row.  I love John Smith but IMO what Burroughs accomplished is much more difficult. 

Those were the rules, so no shame at all. Smith also wrestled in the era of 1 point TDs, real par terre, and no pushouts, all significant disadvantages to a guy who dominates with TDs. 

There’s a debate, but I don’t see how anyone puts JB over Smith objectively when “strength of schedule” is the only argument for JB, and even that can be argued as subjective (I would favor JB there personally, as I’ve already said). Smith takes every other criterion. 

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6 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Those were the rules, so no shame at all. Smith also wrestled in the era of 1 point TDs, real par terre, and no pushouts, all significant disadvantages to a guy who dominates with TDs. 

There’s a debate, but I don’t see how anyone puts JB over Smith objectively when “strength of schedule” is the only argument for JB, and even that can be argued as subjective (I would favor JB there personally, as I’ve already said). Smith takes every other criterion. 

Fewer weights and more Russians is a big difference. Factor in competing under multiple rule sets as well as multiple weigh in rules and doing so over a period nearly twice as long and there is reason to consider Burroughs the goat. 
 

Scouting is orders of magnitude more easy these days and JB has been the most scouted wrestler in history. 

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1 minute ago, nyum said:

Fewer weights and more Russians is a big difference. Factor in competing under multiple rule sets as well as multiple weigh in rules and doing so over a period nearly twice as long and there is reason to consider Burroughs the goat. 
 

Scouting is orders of magnitude more easy these days and JB has been the most scouted wrestler in history. 

I agree with the strength of schedule argument as I’ve said. I don’t think that trumps 6 in a row by age 27, which is absolutely insane  

I don’t buy the rules change argument at all because JB was as helped by then as he was hurt, if not helped more. Step out and 2 pt TD being enormously favorable to him. 

I also don’t buy the scouting argument. The Russians were rewinding VHS tapes instead of YouTube videos, but they studied the crap out of Smith and had plenty of footage on him going back to his college days.

I hate to come off as disrespectful to JB so to be clear for the hundredth or so time (not directed at you, just a general comment), I am a huge fan and have bought all his merchandise to donate to my kids’ school as a sign of support. I just think there is very strong recency bias anytime JB vs Smith is discussed. 

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On 4/3/2021 at 7:48 PM, Katie said:

Dake won fair and square.  I’m pretty sad, but such is life.  JB had a phenomenal run. Gotta get behind Dake now. 

Or not.  I haven't paid attention and didn't realize the trials were this weekend.  

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10 hours ago, 152lbs said:

Or not.  I haven't paid attention and didn't realize the trials were this weekend.  

Good point. I might cheer for Sidakov or Chamizo instead. I’ve actually always cheered for Chamizo — unless he was wrestling Burroughs. 

Edited by Katie

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I am not sure how anyone can "argue" against one or the other being a GOAT??  Both clearly should be considered and if you think one over the other is the GOAT, no one should argue with you...IMHO.  I think JB is the best wrestler I have ever seen in real life...so I am probably biased towards him since I never saw Smith wrestle.  My "favorite" wrestler of all time however, is Dave Schultz!

I have mad respect for JB after the loss...he is a class act and a once in a lifetime talent.  Good luck JB, I will be rooting for you no matter what your future holds!  And good luck to Dake...he is clearly the best 74 kg the US has right now and I think he wins it all.

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On 4/4/2021 at 12:32 AM, wrestlingnerd said:

I'm a big fan but I can't give him that. He's just lost too much. Smith retired when he was 30, I think, after winning 6 straight. Two O golds. There are some arguments for JB being in a different era with more former USSR guys spread around and fewer weights, etc. but I can't unsee all those JB losses and Smith was so good pretty much every time. He lost to Reinoso but still won gold in Seoul, but JB lost and then lost again and didn't even place in Rio. 

John Smith is the US GOAT.

Remember that Satiev lost to Slade and didn’t even place in 2000. 

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3 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

Remember that Satiev lost to Slade and didn’t even place in 2000. 

How many gold medals did he win? How many consecutive minus the 2000 divot? What was his total record? If those were JB’s credentials this discussion would be about 4 words long. Alas, they’re not. 

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1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

How many gold medals did he win? How many consecutive minus the 2000 divot? What was his total record? If those were JB’s credentials this discussion would be about 4 words long. Alas, they’re not. 


I hear you and it makes sense. Nine golds in ten tries is better than five golds in nine tries. 

Satiev won nine world and Olympics. But didn’t place approximately in the middle of his run. Not placing in one Olympics isn’t a big demerit in my view. Put differently, if Smith had the same record overall except he wrestled in one more world championship and didn’t place, I’d rate him pretty much the same. A little less, but only a little. So the point is what makes Satiev so much better is that he won nine out of ten. 

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As much as I love JB I don’t think we can put him above Smith at this point. However, I will say that if he competed in Smiths era, or if Smith competed in his era, JB would be number 1. With the ease of scouting and videos all over the internet, the Russian were able to develop a specific plan to beat JB. They still only ever beat him by a whisker and he was seconds away on multiple occasions from becoming the all time GOAT. They obviously tried to scout Smith too, but I’m sure they had much less film on him. His low single was innovative at the time and it took a long time to figure it out... I bet today, that time would be cut in half or less. Much respect to JB he has been a great ambassador for our sport and is responsible for leading the revival of USA wrestling!

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Now back to the main purpose of this thread. First off, nice job starting this Katie. It’s was a good thing to do.

I was at the trials and the thing that struck me when JB lost was completely taken off guard he was. I said to my friend, “he really did think he was going to lose.” He needed a long moment to let it sink in and just sat their on his knees in stunned silence. I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything like that before. Not when he lost in Rio. Not when he lost to Sidakhov. It was as if it never occurred to him that this day would come. I didn’t know whether to think this was admirable or foolish. But it didn’t matter because only five or ten minutes later he spoke to whole crowd and therefore the whole world. In a brief remark full of dignity and grace, taking nothing away from Dake, he said, in a word, “Game on. See you in a year.” I could not have felt more admiration for the man than in that moment. 

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The guy is a legend.  USA wrestling and the wrestling community owes him a debt of gratitude. Came onto the FS seen with a bang and kept the highlights coming.  I am in awe of what he did and what he accomplished.  
 

Glad he does not feel he is done.  

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14 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:


I hear you and it makes sense. Nine golds in ten tries is better than five golds in nine tries. 

Satiev won nine world and Olympics. But didn’t place approximately in the middle of his run. Not placing in one Olympics isn’t a big demerit in my view. Put differently, if Smith had the same record overall except he wrestled in one more world championship and didn’t place, I’d rate him pretty much the same. A little less, but only a little. So the point is what makes Satiev so much better is that he won nine out of ten. 

Actually, Saitiev failed to medal at the 2000 Olympics and 2006 worlds. He also failed to make the Russian team in 2002 and 2007. Nevertheless, he is currently the GOAT.

Edited by Katie

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7 minutes ago, nom said:

The guy is a legend.  USA wrestling and the wrestling community owes him a debt of gratitude. Came onto the FS seen with a bang and kept the highlights coming.  I am in awe of what he did and what he accomplished.  
 

Glad he does not feel he is done.  

Exactly. He competes at one of the most competitive weight classes. He competed after the Soviet breakup, which means he faced tougher competition than wrestlers did before 1992.  And he competed in an era of reduced weight classes. 

Further, without that knee injury at 2014 worlds, he could very well be a six-time world-level champ. But five is absolutely astonishing.

Edited by Katie

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

Actually, Saitiev failed to medal at the 2000 Olympics and 2006 worlds. He also failed to make the Russian team in 2002 and 2007. Nevertheless, he is currently the GOAT.

I didn’t know he failed to medal in 2006 as well. I thought that in 2002 or 2007 it was something else like Adam went. He actually tried out and someone beat him ?

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8 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

I didn’t know he failed to medal in 2006 as well. I thought that in 2002 or 2007 it was something else like Adam went. He actually tried out and someone beat him ?

He allowed Adam to go in his place in 1999 (although it’s possible Adam was actually better).  He tried out for the team in 2002 and 2007 but didn’t make it. (Wikipedia says that in 2007 he was dealing with an injury.)

But even with the losses, he’s the GOAT.

Edited by Katie

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3 hours ago, dman115 said:

I am not sure how anyone can "argue" against one or the other being a GOAT??  Both clearly should be considered and if you think one over the other is the GOAT, no one should argue with you...IMHO.  

I’m not mad when people bring up Bruce Baumgartner.  Depending on criteria, he can stand out.  Check out the number of world and Olympic golds and medals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Baumgartner

 

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24 minutes ago, Katie said:

He allowed Adam to go in his place in 1999 (although it’s possible Adam was actually better).  He tried out for the team in 2002 and 2007 but didn’t make it. (Wikipedia says that in 2007 he was dealing with an injury.)

But even with the losses, he’s the GOAT.

He’s definitely the GOAT. Thanks for the info !

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