Olympic and World Teams

[Jose132 40]

We have two types of people in the threads about Cox missing weight. There are those that say rules are there for a reason and we shouldn’t allow people to break them. Then there are others that say if the rules are getting in the way of having our best wrestlers on the team then we shouldn’t worry about them. In my opinion, there is validity to both sides. We want to be fair but we also want our best people representing us.

 

Do we need to overhaul the whole system? Would it be better if we do something similar to what team sports do? Allow the coaching staff to determine who is on the team and also determine who is going to be starting based on their own criteria. It wouldn’t be as fair but it might bring more medals.

 

 

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[BigTenFanboy 1,790]

28 minutes ago, Jose132 said:

 

We have two types of people in the threads about Cox missing weight. There are those that say rules are there for a reason and we shouldn’t allow people to break them. Then there are others that say if the rules are getting in the way of having our best wrestlers on the team then we shouldn’t worry about them. In my opinion, there is validity to both sides. We want to be fair but we also want our best people representing us.

 

Do we need to overhaul the whole system? Would it be better if we do something similar to what team sports do? Allow the coaching staff to determine who is on the team and also determine who is going to be starting based on their own criteria. It wouldn’t be as fair but it might bring more medals.

 

 

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It also may bring fewer medals. 

[jchapman 1,320]

37 minutes ago, Jose132 said:

 

We have two types of people in the threads about Cox missing weight. There are those that say rules are there for a reason and we shouldn’t allow people to break them. Then there are others that say if the rules are getting in the way of having our best wrestlers on the team then we shouldn’t worry about them. In my opinion, there is validity to both sides. We want to be fair but we also want our best people representing us.

 

Do we need to overhaul the whole system? Would it be better if we do something similar to what team sports do? Allow the coaching staff to determine who is on the team and also determine who is going to be starting based on their own criteria. It wouldn’t be as fair but it might bring more medals.

 

 

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Honest  question for the sake of discussion:  Would you have wanted Neal to go to Sydney instead of McCoy, even though McCoy beat Neal at OTT?

[Maximus Meridius 22]

Being on the Olympic team is itself a prize. One that should be awarded based on competition. The idea that we, as a nation, need to put the “best” team on the mad bothers me.  I am far more concerned with fairness to individual athletes than I am to putting together our “best“ team. 

[Jose132 40]

It also may bring fewer medals. 

It very well could.


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[Jose132 40]

Honest  question for the sake of discussion:  Would you have wanted Neal to go to Sydney instead of McCoy, even though McCoy beat Neal at OTT?

I’d have gone with McCoy. When I coached, I left it all up to who I won challenge matches. That sometimes meant starting someone that I thought was our second best wrestler.


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[Katie 1,076]

I think it makes sense to give byes to returning medalists. You don’t want a situation where every challenger overly focuses on beating last year’s medalist.  And the byes are inherently unfair. 

I also think there should be flexibility to bend rules that do not disadvantage anyone. For instance, Cox making weight 15 minutes late would not have disadvantaged anyone. It simply would have given him less time to recover. 

In short, I think it is good to have some engineered unfairness in the process. But I don’t think it would be good policy to allow individual athletes to provide themselves with unfair advantages.

[wrestlingnerd 2,999]

Either you use the Russian system of letting the powers that be decide, or you use the American system of meritocratic selection. You cannot have a middle ground without creating too many FUBAR scenarios because wrestlers in particular will never concede an opportunity to advance their cause if the rules allow. Look at brick throwing in the NCAAs as a prime example of a rule that should in theory have been good but sucks in execution.

I like the American way. It is fair, anyone has a chance, and there is minimal room for back-room fckery. 

The Russian way may be more effective at generating world medals, but I think it is idiosyncratic to Russia, where sport is basically sponsored by the stae, and not work in the US, which has a more "capitalist" RTC-based system.

[Jim L 326]

If coaches or a committee made the decision Cox does not make the 2016 team. The current system has a reasonable compromise of giving a slight advantage to world medalists

 

[Jim L 326]

The russian system works for Russia because they have the best and deepest wrestling talent in the world. If you took the top Russians and made the deciding factor skill at tiddlywinks they would still have a great team

[Jose132 40]

Either you use the Russian system of letting the powers that be decide, or you use the American system of meritocratic selection. You cannot have a middle ground without creating too many FUBAR scenarios because wrestlers in particular will never concede an opportunity to advance their cause if the rules allow. Look at brick throwing in the NCAAs as a prime example of a rule that should in theory have been good but sucks in execution.
I like the American way. It is fair, anyone has a chance, and there is minimal room for back-room fckery. 
The Russian way may be more effective at generating world medals, but I think it is idiosyncratic to Russia, where sport is basically sponsored by the stae, and not work in the US, which has a more "capitalist" RTC-based system.

Exactly! And that’s what we have too many people trying to do. They want a tournament where the rules don’t apply if you are someone that can bring a gold.


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[wrestlingnerd 2,999]

8 minutes ago, Jim L said:

The russian system works for Russia because they have the best and deepest wrestling talent in the world. If you took the top Russians and made the deciding factor skill at tiddlywinks they would still have a great team

That and it's the state basically making decisions for its own benefit. You do get the occasional financially driven fraud, but even then, as you said, they still mat a cold-blooded killer. In a country like ours where there are so many different and competing incentives from the potential decision makers, no way.

[Jose132 40]

I think it makes sense to give byes to returning medalists. You don’t want a situation where every challenger overly focuses on beating last year’s medalist.  And the byes are inherently unfair. 
I also think there should be flexibility to bend rules that do not disadvantage anyone. For instance, Cox making weight 15 minutes late would not have disadvantaged anyone. It simply would have given him less time to recover. 
In short, I think it is good to have some engineered unfairness in the process. But I don’t think it would be good policy to allow individual athletes to provide themselves with unfair advantages.

Either you have a rule and you enforce it or you don’t have a rule. If having a weigh in time is stupid then we get rid of the weigh in time. What we can’t do is decide that weigh in times don’t matter because someone we like missed the deadline.


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[jchapman 1,320]

3 minutes ago, Jose132 said:

Either you have a rule and you enforce it or you don’t have a rule. If having a weigh in time is stupid then we get rid of the weigh in time. What we can’t do is decide that weigh in times don’t matter because someone we like missed the deadline.


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Stop being reasonable!

[Katie 1,076]

23 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Stop being reasonable!

If the idea is to reform or replace a self-defeating rule, I am all for it. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Katie

[Jose132 40]

True! Let’s just have stupid and self-defeating rules instead of more flexible standards that help us accomplish what we’re trying to accomplish! Yay!

I said get rid of the rules that are stupid. But if you are going to have a rule then it needs to be enforced equally.


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[jp157 481]

Believe it or not. Very few college coaches and less and less Hs coaches use wrestle offs and go with the best option (in their opinion obviously). It’s a distinct shift I’ve seen happening the last 10 years. Those are team sports though, with individual competitions comprising the whole. I personally go with a criteria of “behavior, attendance, wrestle off” to determine starters 
 

The Olympics are the ultimate Olympic sport. A set wrestle off system is the appropriate option.  
 

I was the first to say, “this seems off let’s wait and see”. With Cox. Now with most of the facts laid bare... I have the same feelings of disappointment I had for an athlete of mine who missed weight a couple years ago.. it sucks but is what it is.

 

 

[Katie 1,076]

1 minute ago, Jose132 said:

I said get rid of the rules that are stupid. But if you are going to have a rule then it needs to be enforced equally.


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I re-thought the post and edited my comment. I think we are substantially in agreement.

I agree we have to enforce existing rules, but I also think that self-defeating rules must be reformed or replaced. 

[Jose132 40]

I re-thought the post and edited my comment. I think we are substantially in agreement.
I agree we have to enforce existing rules, but I also think that self-defeating rules must be reformed or replaced. 

Oh yeah. We are in agreement then! Maybe this situation will lead to a change in future weigh ins. I don’t know what the best time would be. All I know is that same day weigh ins are a must.


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[Jose132 40]

Believe it or not. Very few college coaches and less and less Hs coaches use wrestle offs and go with the best option (in their opinion obviously). It’s a distinct shift I’ve seen happening the last 10 years. Those are team sports though, with individual competitions comprising the whole. I personally go with a criteria of “behavior, attendance, wrestle off” to determine starters 
 
The Olympics are the ultimate Olympic sport. A set wrestle off system is the appropriate option.  
 
I was the first to say, “this seems off let’s wait and see”. With Cox. Now with most of the facts laid bare... I have the same feelings of disappointment I had for an athlete of mine who missed weight a couple years ago.. it sucks but is what it is.
 
 

That’s fascinating.

If I were to coach again I’d have to rethink how I would determine who was starting. You can have a situation where wrestler A is clearly better than wrestler B but just had a bad match during wrestle offs.

Would you determine the US world team and World Cup team the same way as the Olympics or would you do more of what high schools and colleges have moved to?


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[jp157 481]

5 minutes ago, Jose132 said:

That’s fascinating.

If I were to coach again I’d have to rethink how I would determine who was starting. You can have a situation where wrestler A is clearly better than wrestler B but just had a bad match during wrestle offs.

Would you determine the US world team and World Cup team the same way as the Olympics or would you do more of what high schools and colleges have moved to?


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Like I said. Worlds/Olympics I think a set wrestle off procedure is best.

 

The criteria I follow was from advice given to me by a veteran coach who coached in a similar situation I am now. “The first wrestle-off is doing the right thing and showing up on time”. It often sorta things out before a wrestle off needs to occur as well

 

Edit: I also follow a rule for wrestle offs. If the first match isn’t won by more than 3. It becomes a 2 out of 3

Edited April 4, 2021 by jp157
Thought

[wrestlingnerd 2,999]

The problem with comparing how D1 coaches select a team versus how USAW should is that the former is closer to the Russian state selecting their optimal state-sponsored athlete while the latter is just not the same dynamic with our RTC system. Would we trust Zadick and, gasp, KJ to select the optimal team?

[jp157 481]

1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

The problem with comparing how D1 coaches select a team versus how USAW should is that the former is closer to the Russian state selecting their optimal state-sponsored athlete while the latter is just not the same dynamic with our RTC system. Would we trust Zadick and, gasp, KJ to select the optimal team?

That’s part of why I say that a set wrestle off with criteria is what is appropriate for the senior teams

[wamba 52]

Yeah, we should redo the system because a single competitor didn’t make weight on time and instead use the entirely uncontroversial and completely fair system of letting coaches just decide between Dake/JB, Snyder/Cox and the 3-5 competitors at weights 57kg and 65kg.

/s

[ConnorsDad 596]

1 hour ago, Katie said:

I re-thought the post and edited my comment. I think we are substantially in agreement.

I agree we have to enforce existing rules, but I also think that self-defeating rules must be reformed or replaced. 

As you know I disagreed with your posts on the Cox thing the last 2 days. However, if you want to change the rules then I am all for it. Just not during the competition.