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Tiebreakers

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I really like the current iteration of freestyle rules, and Greco too for the most part, except for one thing:  how we handle ties.

Criteria sucks.

Can we at least make it “last score wins”? Or better still, 1 minute of over time, including a possibility of going on the shot clock, with “last score wins” after that?

Wrestling is only guaranteed on the Olympics thru 2024, when IOC president Rogge was appeased with initial changes to the rules to make them more understandable. But wrestling is still not among the 25 “core sports” and there will soon be another vote to see if wrestling has done enough to be among the extra 3 sports in 2028.

Against the backdrop, there are NO casual fans who are able to make any sense out of, or keep track of, the “highest point value” nonsense. It is totally unacceptable that a casual viewer can’t tell who is going to win when the score is tied, or why someone’s hand is raised even when the score is the same. It is hard to imagine a more fan-unfriendly scoring system.

While that is reason enough to simplify or change to something more intuitive, the OTTs this weekend made clear that it isn’t just the fans. There was one Greco final where neither the wrestlers nor the coaches had any idea who had won until the hand was raised. Criticize them if you wish, but that was hardly the first time a competitor or coach didn’t know who “had  criteria”, and there is something seriously wrong with a scoring system if that is even a possibility. 

It’s an embarrassment and should be fixed. 

Edited by BAC

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17 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Criteria is better than OT.

Best. Worst. Last.

We would have much less snoozefests in college if we implemented the same.

I disagree. Casual fans expect OT when regular time ends in a tie. That is how virtually all other sports work.

it does not need to be more than a minute. I am not suggesting a return to the leg-grab or clinch or ball-grab days, but just a little extra time. 

But even if we don’t have OT where there is a tie, for heavens sake, let it be the last score that wins without regard to point value. At least fans, competitors and coaches can easily follow it.

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I really like the current iteration of freestyle rules, and Greco too for the most part, except for one thing:  how we handle ties.
Criteria sucks.
Can we at least make it “last score wins”? Or better still, 1 minute of over time, including a possibility of going on the shot clock, with “last score wins” after that?
Wrestling is only guaranteed on the Olympics thru 2024, when IOC president Rogge was appeased with initial changes to the rules to make them more understandable. But wrestling is still not among the 25 “core sports” and there will soon be another vote to see if wrestling has done enough to be among the extra 3 sports in 2028.
Against the backdrop, there are NO casual fans who are able to make any sense out of, or keep track of, the “highest point value” nonsense. It is totally unacceptable that a casual viewer can’t tell who is going to win when the score is tied, or why someone’s hand is raised even when the score is the same. It is hard to imagine a more fan-unfriendly scoring system.
While that is reason enough to simplify or change to something more intuitive, the OTTs this weekend made clear that it isn’t just the fans. There was one Greco final where neither the wrestlers nor the coaches had any idea who had won until the hand was raised. Criticize them if you wish, but that was hardly the first time a competitor or coach didn’t know who “had  criteria”, and there is something seriously wrong with a scoring system if that is even a possibility. 
It’s an embarrassment and should be fixed. 

I agree with what you are saying. Even though the Olympic committee is stupid we still have to play by their rules or we are going to get the axe. Wrestling not being a core sport is beyond ridiculous. Meanwhile who can possibly understand how gymnastics is scored.


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10 minutes ago, BAC said:

I disagree. Casual fans expect OT when regular time ends in a tie. That is how virtually all other sports work.

it does not need to be more than a minute. I am not suggesting a return to the leg-grab or clinch or ball-grab days, but just a little extra time. 

But even if we don’t have OT where there is a tie, for heavens sake, let it be the last score that wins without regard to point value. At least fans, competitors and coaches can easily follow it.

Everything about OT in freestyle makes me gag.

Wrestling is the best it has ever been.  Our collegiate and folkstyle committees could learn a thing or three.

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24 minutes ago, Jose132 said:


I agree with what you are saying. Even though the Olympic committee is stupid we still have to play by their rules or we are going to get the axe. Wrestling not being a core sport is beyond ridiculous. Meanwhile who can possibly understand how gymnastics is scored.


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Exactly. Personally I think the rule should be changed even if our spot in the Olympics is safe, as the confusion to competitors and coaches (and scorekeepers) caused by “highest point value” far outstrips any arguable benefit. But when you factor in the casual fan, the desire to grow the sport beyond the hard core fan base, and the need to appease the IOC for wrestling to survive as an Olympic sport, it should be a no brainer.

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1 minute ago, BAC said:

Exactly. Personally I think the rule should be changed even if our spot in the Olympics is safe, as the confusion to competitors and coaches (and scorekeepers) caused by “highest point value” far outstrips any arguable benefit. But when you factor in the casual fan, the desire to grow the sport beyond the hard core fan base, and the need to appease the IOC for wrestling to survive as an Olympic sport, it should be a no brainer.

Many on here don’t want the sport to really grow and insist it will always be a niche sport. I think they’re incorrect or don’t like the possibility of expanded deeper competition. But the argument that we need to make the sport more accessible won’t work on them. However misguided they are

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2 minutes ago, jp157 said:

The discussion should be about how we value criteria. First vs last score and whatnot 
 

Not OT 

Why not OT?

I agree the simplification of criteria is the core issue but both that and OT are relevant to fan friendliness and accessibility.

I do agree that a long OT or weird contrived tiebreaker is a mistake. Been there, done that. But I don’t see what the issue is with a short OT (30-60 seconds) followed by criteria (last score wins) as a default. Everyone would understand it, and it would be the most action packed part of the match.

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1 minute ago, BAC said:

Why not OT?

I agree the simplification of criteria is the core issue but both that and OT are relevant to fan friendliness and accessibility.

I do agree that a long OT or weird contrived tiebreaker is a mistake. Been there, done that. But I don’t see what the issue is with a short OT (30-60 seconds) followed by criteria (last score wins) as a default. Everyone would understand it, and it would be the most action packed part of the match.

Because it would still generate the same frustrations honestly 

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Exactly. Personally I think the rule should be changed even if our spot in the Olympics is safe, as the confusion to competitors and coaches (and scorekeepers) caused by “highest point value” far outstrips any arguable benefit. But when you factor in the casual fan, the desire to grow the sport beyond the hard core fan base, and the need to appease the IOC for wrestling to survive as an Olympic sport, it should be a no brainer.

Great point. If our own top wrestlers and coaches can’t understand it then it needs to be looked at. I personally liked when they had no time limit and the first takedown or point wins. It’s easy to understand and it’s exciting.


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3 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Many on here don’t want the sport to really grow and insist it will always be a niche sport. I think they’re incorrect or don’t like the possibility of expanded deeper competition. But the argument that we need to make the sport more accessible won’t work on them. However misguided they are

True. Maybe just subtract out the “more accessible” argument with them. Plenty of other reasons without that. If the fact that wrestlers and coaches have a hard time keeping track isn’t reason enough, maybe the survival of the sport as part of the Olympic Games will resonate.

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2 minutes ago, BAC said:

True. Maybe just subtract out the “more accessible” argument with them. Plenty of other reasons without that. If the fact that wrestlers and coaches have a hard time keeping track isn’t reason enough, maybe the survival of the sport as part of the Olympic Games will resonate.

I honestly think a lot of people don’t actually realize the danger and/or think playing the appropriate politics would “dirty” the “purity” of wrestling. 
 

My annoyance at people not wanting to Face reality, look at the big picture, and keep sticking their head in the sand is a big part of why I’m as.. unfiltered as I am. 

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Just now, nhs67 said:

It's actually Best, Worst, Last.  First isn't in there.

Lol I know. Some people have made halfway decent arguments about switching the last to first among other things. My point being. The criteria itself being tweaked is the discussion not whether or not to put in OT

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I like criteria but am sympathetic to the idea that it sucks for non hardcore fans. However, extending matches by even a minute is counterproductive. The IOC wants less wrestling, not more. I would honestly prefer if the second period automatically became sudden death if the first period is tied than an OT period. I could also live with last score wins but hate the idea that 4 pushouts could beat a feet to back or 2 TDs. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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I honestly think a lot of people don’t actually realize the danger and/or think playing the appropriate politics would “dirty” the “purity” of wrestling. 
 
My annoyance at people not wanting to Face reality, look at the big picture, and keep sticking their head in the sand is a big part of why I’m as.. unfiltered as I am. 

Exactly. We’ve got to move passed the fact that the IOC sucks. Yes they are a corrupt and crappy organization. I don’t like them dictating what wrestling looks like. Unfortunately, none of that matters. They decide who is in and who is out. If we want to stay an Olympic sport we have to give them what they want.

I think the wrestling community has made great strides in making wrestling what it is meant to be and also giving the IOC what they want. Granted it took some time and some crappy experiments that failed. But there really isn’t any way around that.


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2 minutes ago, Jose132 said:


Exactly. We’ve got to move passed the fact that the IOC sucks. Yes they are a corrupt and crappy organization. I don’t like them dictating what wrestling looks like. Unfortunately, none of that matters. They decide who is in and who is out. If we want to stay an Olympic sport we have to give them what they want.

I think the wrestling community has made great strides in making wrestling what it is meant to be and also giving the IOC what they want. Granted it took some time and some crappy experiments that failed. But there really isn’t any way around that.


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Pragmatism that isn’t sociopathic amoral behavior seems to be a difficult concept for Americans after meeting a lot of foreigners 

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Pragmatism that isn’t sociopathic amoral behavior seems to be a difficult concept for Americans after meeting a lot of foreigners 

Can you dumb that down for me? I understand the words but not in that order.


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31 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I like criteria but am sympathetic to the idea that it sucks for non hardcore fans. However, extending matches by even a minute is counterproductive. The IOC wants less wrestling, not more. I would honestly prefer if the second period automatically became sudden death if the first period is tied than an OT period. I could also live with last score wins but hate the idea that 4 pushouts could beat a feet to back or 2 TDs. 

It is a fair point that the IOC wants wrestling as compact as possible. I could see the added excitement and clarity of a short OT period offsetting that concern, but I’m not sure if they would see it that way.

Is your second period as OT idea all that much different from the “tennis rules” era in which there were 2 periods with a third as a tiebreaker? Selfishly I did not like how much that shortened the matches to US wrestlers’ detriment. And come to think of it, wasn’t there already a phase in which there was a single 5 minute period with OT? I kind of like the current length and would be loathe to mess with it — just clarifying the ending when there is a tie.

I also am sympathetic, as a purist, to the idea that 4 push outs could eclipse a 4 point throw... but then I ask myself, is that really so different from 5 push outs eclipsing a 4 point throw under current rules? I just think the added clarity for all involved of “last point wins” (irrespective of point value) outstrips any downside, especially for casual viewers.

Edited by BAC

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8 minutes ago, Jose132 said:


Can you dumb that down for me? I understand the words but not in that order.


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Looking at the world as it is, accepting that reality, and making pragmatic decisions according to that reality. As in the practical solution is followed. Many people though, associate that sort of decision making with Machiavellian amoral people. 
 

A good example is “inclusivity”. Whether or not people like it “inclusivity” is a part of the dominant culture. Wresting is one of the only things that can, with a straight face, promote itself as the most inclusive sport in existence. And promoting that inclusivity can get title IX off our backs.. it doesn’t matter if you like or believe in the current trend of “inclusivity”. It should be something that everyone in wrestling promotes out of basic pragmatism.. yet many will screech and cry and whine about “the libs” or whatever because of the word “inclusivity”

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Looking at the world as it is, accepting that reality, and making pragmatic decisions according to that reality. As in the practical solution is followed. Many people though, associate that sort of decision making with Machiavellian amoral people. 
 
A good example is “inclusivity”. Whether or not people like it “inclusivity” is a part of the dominant culture. Wresting is one of the only things that can, with a straight face, promote itself as the most inclusive sport in existence. And promoting that inclusivity can get title IX off our backs.. it doesn’t matter if you like or believe in the current trend of “inclusivity”. It should be something that everyone in wrestling promotes out of basic pragmatism.. yet many will screech and cry and whine about “the libs” or whatever because of the word “inclusivity”

Gotcha. And yes you are right. One only needs to look at how politics is done in this country. It’s not about people coming together to figure out the best solution to the problems that face us. It’s all about being an ideologue. But that’s all I’ll say about that.


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1 hour ago, jp157 said:

Lol I know. Some people have made halfway decent arguments about switching the last to first among other things. My point being. The criteria itself being tweaked is the discussion not whether or not to put in OT

Criteria is fine as-is.  The discussion should be how do we implement it into our college/folkstyles.

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7 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Criteria is fine as-is.  The discussion should be how do we implement it into our college/folkstyles.

If someone can present me a plan that doesn’t carry the legitimate risk of turning Hs wrestling into just a club sport id actually be at the forefront of pushing for freestyle 

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