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Eagle26

How many guys are going to leave NLWC?

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6 hours ago, Fishbane said:

It would probably turn out a lot like Oliver at the 2012 trials.  That was after his junior year when he lost to Stieber in the 133 final.  He wrestled 66kg and went 0-2 losing to Metcalf in the first round.  If RBY could make 57kg then he could be a factor.  It's really the only choice for a 133 to be competitive.

The only wrestler that ended his NCAA career at 133 and didn't go 57kg this year was Nashon Garrett.  The rest of them went down.

That’s a bad example.  Oliver drew Metcalf (who made the final) first and lost 1-0, 0-1, 1-0, then had Adam Hall (who got 5th) and lost 1-0, 1-1.  Oliver was right there. 
 

Interestingly, there were 15 guys in that bracket, including Cary Kolat, who also went 0-2.

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

That’s a bad example.  Oliver drew Metcalf (who made the final) first and lost 1-0, 0-1, 1-0, then had Adam Hall (who got 5th) and lost 1-0, 1-1.  Oliver was right there. 
 

Interestingly, there were 15 guys in that bracket, including Cary Kolat, who also went 0-2.

Oliver was competitive but not a factor.  Would you predict RBY to exceed that?  In 2012 60kg was still a weight.  I am not sure why Oliver moved up so soon.  I imagine he was done cutting the weight.  In any event he had not filled it out yet.  The next year he was a factor beating Metcalf and making the US Open final.  The three mini match format was really the best rule set for Oliver to beat Metcalf.  As for Hall he was a 157 in 2011.  Oliver was 133 a few weeks earlier.

They didn’t wrestle off for 5th last weekend but at 65kg that match would have been between Zain and Mitch McKee.  I wouldn’t like RBYs chances to beat either finalist or the 5th place finisher.  He might hold it close though especially in the old best of three period format.

I am pretty sure Kolat defaulted his Consolation.  He was there for one spot.  Like molinero this year.  I am sure Oliver would have done the same if he lost.

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12 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Nickal has been working with David Taylor for YEARS. Both men know each others strengths. Both men know what they need to do. Right now one is better than the other. Apply the same logic to Nick Lee and Zain. 

Unless you think they coached Lee to beat Zain, but failed to coach Zain and failed to coach Bo Nickal on how to compete with DT. The whole thesis is lacking. Don't follow the crowd, use your own good judgment. They coach all their wrestlers.

My theory is that they coached each wrestler to be the best they can be and helped them improve their own strengths and weaknesses so that they can beat anybody. I am saying I don’t believe they would actively help them find specific strategies to beat their own wrestlers. Maybe I’m wrong and they have their own individual coaches in that case? Like Cody coaches against Zain and Casey coaches against Lee? I just think that’s an uncomfortable situation for a coach and a conflict of interest. Am I really the only one that thinks that lol?

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10 hours ago, jcjcjc said:

Yes, They also did this with Nickal. 
no, DT seems pretty happy. 
 

coming up with the best game plan possible to beat your own wrestler means you know how to prepare them to beat the wrestlers most prepared to beat you. 
 

This happens all the time in football and basketball. Teams scout their own teams to find their own weaknesses to target for improvement. 

Yes, I agree it’s good to know the best strategy to beat your own wrestler (ex. JB should be aware Dake is going to utilize the chest wrap to stop his double). However, going over that game plan with the competition is a totally different thing! That never happens in other sports. I have never heard of closed door meetings to help wrestlers with wrestle offs against guys on their own team. As I mentioned in the previous post, maybe some coaches choose individual wrestlers but I think that’s an uncomfortable situation. I’ve been around a lot of teams and clubs and have never seen this. I guess it’s a possibility though. NLWC is at such an elite level, they may have to divide coaches to coach against their own wrestlers 

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David mentions the dynamic at 1:00 and again at 3:15 in the below video... 

As most have discussed, they discuss it regularly and are prepared for it. He did note, however, that to be at the biggest stage of your career, and not having an active coach in your corner, is tough. 

 

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There are upsides (familiarity, consistency, great room, coaches you already trust and love) and downsides (club emphasis on a rival, opponent might have seen and felt your newest and best tricks).  But with video everywhere its not so hard to scout even if you are not training directly,

Perhaps most conclude that the upsides outweigh the downsides.   Also could be family and life circumstances on where you are able and willing to go and how comfortable you are now.  Carrying water and chopping wood may not be quite the same in every place.  The good thing is there are a lot of interesting choices - perhaps unlike in the days of Foxcatcher.   

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14 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Come on TBar, I love me some Nick Lee but let’s not act like beating Zain and Yianni in the wrestle backs is the same as on the front side.

My post was in response to Eagle's post which I took implying the PSU/NLWC were picking and choosing who to coach and not coach among their team of wrestlers. Maybe that isn't what he meant, but when reading that post it sort of looks that way. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

My theory is that they coached each wrestler to be the best they can be and helped them improve their own strengths and weaknesses so that they can beat anybody. I am saying I don’t believe they would actively help them find specific strategies to beat their own wrestlers. Maybe I’m wrong and they have their own individual coaches in that case? Like Cody coaches against Zain and Casey coaches against Lee? I just think that’s an uncomfortable situation for a coach and a conflict of interest. Am I really the only one that thinks that lol?

I agree with you that when this situation arises it isn't their comfort zone, but I think they coach at every step in the process how to best win positions. Each wrestler knows what the other wrestlers are best at and maybe not best at long before OTTs. 

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6 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

Yes, I agree it’s good to know the best strategy to beat your own wrestler (ex. JB should be aware Dake is going to utilize the chest wrap to stop his double). However, going over that game plan with the competition is a totally different thing! That never happens in other sports. I have never heard of closed door meetings to help wrestlers with wrestle offs against guys on their own team. As I mentioned in the previous post, maybe some coaches choose individual wrestlers but I think that’s an uncomfortable situation. I’ve been around a lot of teams and clubs and have never seen this. I guess it’s a possibility though. NLWC is at such an elite level, they may have to divide coaches to coach against their own wrestlers 

The Penn St. coaches are talking strategy with their wrestlers all the time; are they just going to not address any strategies for the best guys in the weights of their wrestlers? I don't think so.

I think the advantage of a great room is that you separate yourselves from the rest, which is what they are doing, by training to improve in the situations where they can beat each other. Obviously, they are just improving skills all the time as well, but if teammates aren't trying to neutralize your best skills, how are you going to improve that area?  The thing that makes Penn St. different is that they separate from the field. 

I'm predicting that part of this is by having a very open, creative environment that doesn't shy away from everyone's ability to adapt and improve and create a need to improve in their teammates. 

Penn St. approaches the sport differently from the rest of us. I think there is a good chance that what I'm saying is one of the ways they are very different than the rest of us. 

 

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4 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I agree with you that when this situation arises it isn't their comfort zone, but I think they coach at every step in the process how to best win positions. Each wrestler knows what the other wrestlers are best at and maybe not best at long before OTTs. 

Yes, this might be another way of what I'm trying to say. 

They aren't going to ignore the fact that DT or Zain is taking someone down a specific way, so they will coach the situation of that takedown which helps the room progress past that end point of wrestling. They continue through every position; to me it seems like they get sad when something works on their guys in the room because it stops the chain of flow. 

I remember Cael talking at camps about how wrestling is a game that needs to be played and progressed. To me this is his way of playing the game to its most satisfying. 

I may be wrong, but it is beneficial to me as a coach to try to get in his mind, despite being a high school and club coach who doesn't have his resources and only some of his problems. 

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7 hours ago, Fishbane said:

Oliver was competitive but not a factor.  Would you predict RBY to exceed that?  In 2012 60kg was still a weight.  I am not sure why Oliver moved up so soon.  

He missed weight at 60kg and moved up at the last minute.

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3 hours ago, lu_alum said:

He missed weight at 60kg and moved up at the last minute.

That's interesting given the situation with Cox this year.  Did the procedures change since then or was Cox given the option to move up and opted not to?

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

That's interesting given the situation with Cox this year.  Did the procedures change since then or was Cox given the option to move up and opted not to?

Cox couldn’t compete at heavy. You had to announce your weight beforehand. 

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13 hours ago, Fishbane said:

That's interesting given the situation with Cox this year.  Did the procedures change since then or was Cox given the option to move up and opted not to?

"Current Cowboy Jordan Oliver also competed Sunday. He was originally scheduled to wrestle Saturday at 60 kg, but did not make weight at Friday's weigh in and moved up to today's 66kg bracket. The 2010 NCAA Champion lost his first-round bout to 2008 Hodge Trophy winner Brent Metcalf, 1-0, 0-1, 1-0, and was then eliminated with a loss to Adam Hall."

https://okstate.com/news/2012/4/22/Two_Former_Cowboys_Take_Third_at_U_S_Olympic_Trials.aspx

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1 hour ago, lu_alum said:

"Current Cowboy Jordan Oliver also competed Sunday. He was originally scheduled to wrestle Saturday at 60 kg, but did not make weight at Friday's weigh in and moved up to today's 66kg bracket. The 2010 NCAA Champion lost his first-round bout to 2008 Hodge Trophy winner Brent Metcalf, 1-0, 0-1, 1-0, and was then eliminated with a loss to Adam Hall."

https://okstate.com/news/2012/4/22/Two_Former_Cowboys_Take_Third_at_U_S_Olympic_Trials.aspx

Once you mentioned it I did recall hearing that at the time.  I guess procedures have changed since 2012.

Also I believe their is an error in that quote which is not yours error but OSUs.  Oliver won NCAAs in 2011 not 2010.  2012 was the year he lost to Stieber and then in 2013 he moved up two weights to 149 and won again.  Missing weight at the OTT was between his last season at 133 and moving up to 149.

Edited by Fishbane

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