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irani

coverage of US qualification tournament in Iranian media

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I must say, Iranian media covered this event in more detail than US media did.

Google translate is only slightly worse than my translation, so I am being lazy and let you guy read google translate.  Because they spell names phonetically, when you translate the translations, you come up with some funny spellings, but I think you can figure out who they are talking about

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/news/298507/نبرد-انتقامی-حسن-یزدانی-با-تیلور-آمریکایی-در-توکیو

 

 

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33 minutes ago, irani said:

I must say, Iranian media covered this event in more detail than US media did.

Google translate is only slightly worse than my translation, so I am being lazy and let you guy read google translate.  Because they spell names phonetically, when you translate the translations, you come up with some funny spellings, but I think you can figure out who they are talking about

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/news/298507/نبرد-انتقامی-حسن-یزدانی-با-تیلور-آمریکایی-در-توکیو

 

 

If Yazdani failed to make weight by 13 minutes, would they bar him from going to the Olympics? Asking for a friend. 

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Just now, MizzouGrad said:

If Yazdani failed to make weight by 13 minutes, would they bar him from going to the Olympics? Asking for a friend. 

I am not getting involved in this debate, however, I am very disappointed not see Cox wrestle Snyder.  Everyone loses

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6 minutes ago, MizzouGrad said:

If Yazdani failed to make weight by 13 minutes, would they bar him from going to the Olympics? Asking for a friend. 

Almost certainly not. But the coaches and wrestling federation in Iran have nobody to answer to. If Yazdani weighed in late and his opponent complained they could essentially tell him to get lost and cry about it and he would have no recourse. 

I'd be more interested about what would happen in Russia. That's a bit of a middle ground between the USA (strict trials procedure rules that are adhered to) and Iran ( wild west, coaches have basically unlimited power). Russia has a trials procedure that they mostly respect but they are flexible. I assume they would have let him wrestle. 

 

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OK, you roped me into this, so let me give you my assessment

The US system is very rigid, but at the same time very fair, no exceptions.

The Iranian system attempts to be flexible, and make the decision based on what the leadership thinks gives Iran the best chances of success.  That results in lots of accusation of favoritism and unfairness by those who are not selected.

Now give you an extreme example of when the Iranian system would have worked perfectly.

in 1992, Dan O'brien was the defending decathlon world champion, and the hands down favorite for Olympic gold.  He had an off day in the qualification, failed his pole vault attempts, and therefore did not make the team.  Under the very fair US system, he did not make the team.

Under the Iranian system, someone would have said "are you nuts?" and put O'brien on the team.  That would have been unfair to the guy who took third in the qualifications, but would gained US an almost certain gold in Decathalon.

Which system is better? Not a black and white answer.  

 

Edited by irani

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43 minutes ago, irani said:

I must say, Iranian media covered this event in more detail than US media did.

Google translate is only slightly worse than my translation, so I am being lazy and let you guy read google translate.  Because they spell names phonetically, when you translate the translations, you come up with some funny spellings, but I think you can figure out who they are talking about

https://www.khabarvarzeshi.com/news/298507/نبرد-انتقامی-حسن-یزدانی-با-تیلور-آمریکایی-در-توکیو

 

 

Thanks for the link.  Some humorous translations:

the defeat of Jordan Burroughs to Kyle Duck, the elimination and failure of the black American giant to reach the Tokyo Olympics

Also:

 issue that happened to "Jayden Cox", the world champion and opponent of Alireza Karimi in the 92 kg final of the 2019 World Championships, and this muscular figure did not reach the weightlifting ceremony

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1 minute ago, Jim L said:

Thanks for the link.  Some humorous translations:

the defeat of Jordan Burroughs to Kyle Duck, the elimination and failure of the black American giant to reach the Tokyo Olympics

Also:

 issue that happened to "Jayden Cox", the world champion and opponent of Alireza Karimi in the 92 kg final of the 2019 World Championships, and this muscular figure did not reach the weightlifting ceremony

Lol, yes google translate can come up with some odd, funny, and awkward translations 

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2 minutes ago, irani said:

Lol, yes google translate can come up with some odd, funny, and awkward translations 

no worries...

you see the totally ridiculous "translations" posters here come up with all the time of their own language...

perception is reality...

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I'm torn by how US teams are selected.  I mean it is the American system to open it up to all and see who wins.  

But even though upsets are exciting,  I think Yianni had best shot for medal.  I am not sure if it is in best interest of US Olympics to have JO defeat Yianni on last second shot and win in such manner.  

Maybe open door up for underdog at same time making it apparent that an underdog has to significantly defeat favorite.  Maybe tie breaking criteria should go to favorite.  

Of course decisions need to be made in advance...not due to hindsight.  I think there needs to be some flexibility built into system when one favorite like Surriano got sick.  I mean what would have happened had Taylor and Snyder got Covid?   Our team would be really week. 

If the trials were moved back would Lee even be able to participate?  I'm not sure how long he is out.  

I get rules are rules. Not fighting that.  Just  thinking about possible rule changes for next time to add some flexibility.  For instance if a guy misses weight by 15 minutes maybe you should make his road tougher but not eliminate him....such as giving all his opponents the tie breaking criteria.  

 

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58 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I'm torn by how US teams are selected.  I mean it is the American system to open it up to all and see who wins.  

But even though upsets are exciting,  I think Yianni had best shot for medal.  I am not sure if it is in best interest of US Olympics to have JO defeat Yianni on last second shot and win in such manner.  

Maybe open door up for underdog at same time making it apparent that an underdog has to significantly defeat favorite.  Maybe tie breaking criteria should go to favorite.  

Of course decisions need to be made in advance...not due to hindsight.  I think there needs to be some flexibility built into system when one favorite like Surriano got sick.  I mean what would have happened had Taylor and Snyder got Covid?   Our team would be really week. 

If the trials were moved back would Lee even be able to participate?  I'm not sure how long he is out.  

I get rules are rules. Not fighting that.  Just  thinking about possible rule changes for next time to add some flexibility.  For instance if a guy misses weight by 15 minutes maybe you should make his road tougher but not eliminate him....such as giving all his opponents the tie breaking criteria.  

 

Current system is really good.  If more tweaking is done to give further advantage to the favorite it will hurt us.  No real evidence that Yianni has a better shot to medal than JO.

Who thought Snyder had a better chance to medal than Varner in 2015? Or Cox was the best option in 2016 with zero international experience?The list goes on and on of guys who "shouldn't have" been on the world or Olympic team and went on to medal.

 

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1 hour ago, shieldofpistis said:

I'm torn by how US teams are selected.  I mean it is the American system to open it up to all and see who wins.  

But even though upsets are exciting,  I think Yianni had best shot for medal.  I am not sure if it is in best interest of US Olympics to have JO defeat Yianni on last second shot and win in such manner.  

Maybe open door up for underdog at same time making it apparent that an underdog has to significantly defeat favorite.  Maybe tie breaking criteria should go to favorite.  

Of course decisions need to be made in advance...not due to hindsight.  I think there needs to be some flexibility built into system when one favorite like Surriano got sick.  I mean what would have happened had Taylor and Snyder got Covid?   Our team would be really week. 

If the trials were moved back would Lee even be able to participate?  I'm not sure how long he is out.  

I get rules are rules. Not fighting that.  Just  thinking about possible rule changes for next time to add some flexibility.  For instance if a guy misses weight by 15 minutes maybe you should make his road tougher but not eliminate him....such as giving all his opponents the tie breaking criteria.  

 

Taylor would have been SOL. Snyder as a 2019 world medalist at the Olympic weight could have requested and been granted a delay of the final best of 3. 

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These flexibility plans are all very easy to game. And they are the complete opposite of what everyone who wrestles says they love about the sport. It is just me against him. This idea of a committee overriding results is the anti-thesis of that.

Of the ideas proffered so far I think "the favorite wins the tiebreaker" is the most laughable. Why bother having the matches? Upsets (by some metric) certainly never happen. Let's let a team of Flo rankers decide who get the tie breaker. I have to believe this board will unanimously support that idea.

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2 hours ago, irani said:

OK, you roped me into this, so let me give you my assessment

The US system is very rigid, but at the same time very fair, no exceptions.

The Iranian system attempts to be flexible, and make the decision based on what the leadership thinks gives Iran the best chances of success.  That results in lots of accusation of favoritism and unfairness by those who are not selected.

Now give you an extreme example of when the Iranian system would have worked perfectly.

in 1992, Dan O'brien was the defending decathlon world champion, and the hands down favorite for Olympic gold.  He had an off day in the qualification, failed his pole vault attempts, and therefore did not make the team.  Under the very fair US system, he did not make the team.

Under the Iranian system, someone would have said "are you nuts?" and put O'brien on the team.  That would have been unfair to the guy who took third in the qualifications, but would gain US an almost certain gold in Decathalon.

Which system is better? Not a black and white answer.  

 

I'm only quoting this so more people read it. Excellent reply. 

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42 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

These flexibility plans are all very easy to game. And they are the complete opposite of what everyone who wrestles says they love about the sport. It is just me against him. This idea of a committee overriding results is the anti-thesis of that.

Of the ideas proffered so far I think "the favorite wins the tiebreaker" is the most laughable. Why bother having the matches? Upsets (by some metric) certainly never happen. Let's let a team of Flo rankers decide who get the tie breaker. I have to believe this board will unanimously support that idea.

I think the tie breaking criteria is silly anyway.  Would rather a challenger beat the favorite instead of hold out for tie.

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54 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Current system is really good.  If more tweaking is done to give further advantage to the favorite it will hurt us.  No real evidence that Yianni has a better shot to medal than JO.

Who thought Snyder had a better chance to medal than Varner in 2015? Or Cox was the best option in 2016 with zero international experience?The list goes on and on of guys who "shouldn't have" been on the world or Olympic team and went on to medal.

 

There wasn't a question being better than Varner.  He had a lot of steam going into that. 

Cox won and he beat favorites. Its not like someone missed weight or got covid. 

Maybe your right about yianni but I thought he did beat someone high up internationally

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4 hours ago, irani said:

OK, you roped me into this, so let me give you my assessment

The US system is very rigid, but at the same time very fair, no exceptions.

The Iranian system attempts to be flexible, and make the decision based on what the leadership thinks gives Iran the best chances of success.  That results in lots of accusation of favoritism and unfairness by those who are not selected.

Now give you an extreme example of when the Iranian system would have worked perfectly.

in 1992, Dan O'brien was the defending decathlon world champion, and the hands down favorite for Olympic gold.  He had an off day in the qualification, failed his pole vault attempts, and therefore did not make the team.  Under the very fair US system, he did not make the team.

Under the Iranian system, someone would have said "are you nuts?" and put O'brien on the team.  That would have been unfair to the guy who took third in the qualifications, but would gained US an almost certain gold in Decathalon.

Which system is better? Not a black and white answer.  

 

I'd say it IS black and white that the Iranian system is better for all involved except for the guy who luck onto the team due to a world champion's slip up.

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People are talking about two different issues. The U.S. system is to have a competition that determines the team. This competition is, of course, weighted to favor past medalists. But none of that is at issue when it come to Cox. The issue there is should he have been allowed to compete despite a basically meaningless failure to make weight 15 minutes before he made weight. He he been allowed to compete, he still would have had to beat Snyder to make the team.

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I think the only issue to debate is whether or not our strict system is best. Like it or not that’s the current system, and Cox shouldn’t be allowed to compete under the rules that we use. Would we be better suited with something similar to Russia where we have a national tournament but it isn’t a strict guarantee? IMO, it would probably get us the better team most years, but it also adds politics, controversy, and takes away the excitement of the trials. I could debate that either way, but, personally, I like the American way... its consistent with our tradition as a country and the concept that anyone who works hard can succeed... the “American dream”

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4 hours ago, Jim L said:

Current system is really good.  If more tweaking is done to give further advantage to the favorite it will hurt us.  No real evidence that Yianni has a better shot to medal than JO.

Who thought Snyder had a better chance to medal than Varner in 2015? Or Cox was the best option in 2016 with zero international experience?The list goes on and on of guys who "shouldn't have" been on the world or Olympic team and went on to medal.

 

It is a long list and includes successes like K Cross over defending WC Terry Brands and ones that didn't medal like Les Gutches over defending WC K Jackson.  - Still I am happy with how our system is and I would not want to see it become to subjective.  Let the wrestlers decide their own fate.

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9 hours ago, Shiraz123 said:

Almost certainly not. But the coaches and wrestling federation in Iran have nobody to answer to. If Yazdani weighed in late and his opponent complained they could essentially tell him to get lost and cry about it and he would have no recourse. 

I'd be more interested about what would happen in Russia. That's a bit of a middle ground between the USA (strict trials procedure rules that are adhered to) and Iran ( wild west, coaches have basically unlimited power). Russia has a trials procedure that they mostly respect but they are flexible. I assume they would have let him wrestle. 

 

that was funny and correct. lol

I believe if it was a two-man trial like what we had this year they would let him wrestle but if it was an extended trial (I mean a tournament like Takhti Cup) they wouldn't let him wrestle but they would make him wrestle the winner later at another date lol

but it's not like they have "nobody to answer to" that Hadi-Ghasemi 2016 story even went to the parliament, they brought in the sport ministry since technically they couldn't touch Khadem (as IAWF president) , there were street protests in Hadi's hometown. that didn't change anything at the end but it's not like they don't have to consider anything else when they pick up a team.

let's say if wrestler A beats wrestler B in the trials it will be really hard for them to pick wrestler B unless they meet again and the B guy makes up for that first defeat. yes there were some rare exceptions in the past (Ebrahimi beat Karimi twice, yet Karimi went to the worlds) but they usually set up everything to help the B wrestler "not losing" the trials. sometimes avoiding a direct match. as you said yourself this is what they are doing between Zare and Taheri this time. but if they wrestle and Taheri wins it won't be easy to simply send Zare to the Olympics.

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overall, I prefer the US system, because it is fair and transparent.  In case of wrestling, because they make it 2 out of 3, they reduce the odds of the better wrestling getting caught in a lucky move.  They also do give preferential treatment to those who earn it (e.g. defending world champions or medalists)

But no system is perfect.  What if Taylor, Dake or Snyder had the flu the day of the trial, or had Covid?  Under the fair and transparent US system, they would be eliminated.  In Iran and Russia, they would schedule a match later for just them.  Perhaps not fair, but probably better results for the team

I think you could avoid controversy by defining all the exceptions in advance

  • If the returning world champion is sick during the trial, we will schedule another opportunity for them
  • If the returning world champion misses weight, he will be allowed one hour more than other contestants to make weight

Again, this will be fair only if such exceptions are defined and announced in advance, not after the fact ( as they do in Iran)

 

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10 minutes ago, irani said:

overall, I prefer the US system, because it is fair and transparent.  In case of wrestling, because they make it 2 out of 3, they reduce the odds of the better wrestling getting caught in a lucky move.  They also do give preferential treatment to those who earn it (e.g. defending world champions or medalists)

But no system is perfect.  What if Taylor, Dake or Snyder had the flu the day of the trial, or had Covid?  Under the fair and transparent US system, they would be eliminated.  In Iran and Russia, they would schedule a match later for just them.  Perhaps not fair, but probably better results for the team

I think you could avoid controversy by defining all the exceptions in advance

  • If the returning world champion is sick during the trial, we will schedule another opportunity for them
  • If the returning world champion misses weight, he will be allowed one hour more than other contestants to make weight

Again, this will be fair only if such exceptions are defined and announced in advance, not after the fact ( as they do in Iran)

 

They did define all the exceptions in advance. It was a list of one.

No exceptions. 

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3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

They did define all the exceptions in advance. It was a list of one.

No exceptions. 

Yes, please refer to my comment about being 100% fair, but not necessarily what is best for the US medal chances

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