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T/F: You can't be the GOAT if you got pinned

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30 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I disagree.  It depends on the competition that year at the weight class.  

As already mentioned; many would argue snyders resume overall is better while in college. 

While in college Dake won just as many titles and jumped up to Taylor's weight class and beat him twice.  

I'm not sure Cael ever had Spencer's Lee type of dominance.  

It just depends what you value more.  Some factor in international success while in college.  Some factor in how many people are able to make it out of first period.  Some focus on never losing.  I prefer to focus on quality of competition 

squuuuawk!.....anybody but Cael.....squaaaawk!

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35 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I disagree.  It depends on the competition that year at the weight class.  

As already mentioned; many would argue snyders resume overall is better while in college. 

While in college Dake won just as many titles and jumped up to Taylor's weight class and beat him twice.  

I'm not sure Cael ever had Spencer's Lee type of dominance.  

It just depends what you value more.  Some factor in international success while in college.  Some factor in how many people are able to make it out of first period.  Some focus on never losing.  I prefer to focus on quality of competition 

You had me until the bolded part.  They were dominant in different ways.  Cael didn't feast on his opposition with Spencer's frenetic pace.  But the ease with which he dispatched his opposition was something to behold.  Cael turned Daniel Cormier into an also-ran.  Two time Olympian and one of the greatest combat athletes of all time Daniel Cormier.  With Cael the result never seemed in doubt, and it looked like he never really needed to break a sweat collegiately.

Also, since we're talking about GOAT status, durability is an attribute of importance whether I like it or not.  I am not sure if Cael was exceptionally durable, or if he just virtually never entered territory where he wasn't in complete control of the engagement.

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Worth pondering a bit, and worth thinking about, what sort of an impact does a particular competitor have on the competitive landscape? how many guys altered their weight classes, and even career paths, because Cael was where he was? How many world medals did his presence simply take away from guys?  

Cormier definitely has an ncaa title, stays at 84kg for the olympics, potentially has a medal, and as a result likely walks into same weight at the UFC.  Daniel Cormier at 185lbs is a scaaaary dude.

Lee Fullhart may have graced the international stage once or twice.

Brandon Eggum would be much better known, and may well have a title.

I was on the younger side when Cael went through so if anybody else can add more names please do.

Worth reminding people too, he walked onto a world team, way undersized and undertrained, just to have a crack at it. Not the stiffest competition maybe, but he was never challenged by Jake Herbert, who was less than two years removed from his world silver and would take the olympic spot in 2012.

 

So, for vaunted herbivore status, flight of competition will definitely be a mark worth analyzing.

 

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3 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Worth pondering a bit, and worth thinking about, what sort of an impact does a particular competitor have on the competitive landscape? how many guys altered their weight classes, and even career paths, because Cael was where he was? How many world medals did his presence simply take away from guys?  

Cormier definitely has an ncaa title, stays at 84kg for the olympics, potentially has a medal, and as a result likely walks into same weight at the UFC.  Daniel Cormier at 185lbs is a scaaaary dude.

Lee Fullhart may have graced the international stage once or twice.

Brandon Eggum would be much better known, and may well have a title.

I was on the younger side when Cael went through so if anybody else can add more names please do.

Worth reminding people too, he walked onto a world team, way undersized and undertrained, just to have a crack at it. Not the stiffest competition maybe, but he was never challenged by Jake Herbert, who was less than two years removed from his world silver and would take the olympic spot in 2012.

 

So, for vaunted herbivore status, flight of competition will definitely be a mark worth analyzing.

 

I agree. Im not anti Cael.  He may be the best.  Surely people did avoid him.  

But there is also something special that Kyle accomplished.  The international awards is one thing. But also the weight disparity.   And the grind of shooting and lifting heavier guys 

There are many perspectives.  Guys really couldn't dodge Snyder because he wrestled at heavyweight.  

If Gable places at Olympics and continued. his dominance he may have case.  He teched  Gwiz.  

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10 hours ago, shieldofpistis said:

I disagree.  It depends on the competition that year at the weight class.  

As already mentioned; many would argue snyders resume overall is better while in college. 

While in college Dake won just as many titles and jumped up to Taylor's weight class and beat him twice.  

I'm not sure Cael ever had Spencer's Lee type of dominance.  

It just depends what you value more.  Some factor in international success while in college.  Some factor in how many people are able to make it out of first period.  Some focus on never losing.  I prefer to focus on quality of competition 

Kyle Snyder has the best hardware for college guy... How many losses does Henry Cejudo take if he had wrestled in college?  

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19 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Worth pondering a bit, and worth thinking about, what sort of an impact does a particular competitor have on the competitive landscape? how many guys altered their weight classes, and even career paths, because Cael was where he was? How many world medals did his presence simply take away from guys?  

Cormier definitely has an ncaa title, stays at 84kg for the olympics, potentially has a medal, and as a result likely walks into same weight at the UFC.  Daniel Cormier at 185lbs is a scaaaary dude.

Lee Fullhart may have graced the international stage once or twice.

Brandon Eggum would be much better known, and may well have a title.

I was on the younger side when Cael went through so if anybody else can add more names please do.

Worth reminding people too, he walked onto a world team, way undersized and undertrained, just to have a crack at it. Not the stiffest competition maybe, but he was never challenged by Jake Herbert, who was less than two years removed from his world silver and would take the olympic spot in 2012.

 

So, for vaunted herbivore status, flight of competition will definitely be a mark worth analyzing.

 

Obviously you are just speculating but I think you are way off thinking DC would have stayed at 184 w/o Cael.  This is the guy that ended up in the hospital trying to make 211 in the 2008 Olympics.  

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23 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Alex Marinelli great? How is underperforming your seed at NCAAs three straight times equate to great?

How do you have an Olympic gold medalist, senior world champions, and  2x, 3x ,and 4x NCAA champs on the same list as a guy who failed to place in his redshirt senior year of college and has a  best placement of 6th at the  NCAA tournament? smh

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1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

Obviously you are just speculating but I think you are way off thinking DC would have stayed at 184 w/o Cael.  This is the guy that ended up in the hospital trying to make 211 in the 2008 Olympics.  

I am indeed speculating quite a lot.  I’ve always been curious in the back of my mind how Cormier would have done if he’d kept the fork under control more.

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I never thought of it as an accomplishment when old geezers would brag about never being pinned in college.  I got pinned once in college.  But I averaged about 10 matches per year and only wrestled 3 D1 all Americans and two D3 all Americans in my college career.  Oddly enough the pin was against another “non starter” wrestler.  
 

I think being teched is worse than being pinned.   You can be winning or in a close match then get pinned.  You can’t win due to a “fluke” technical fall.  

Edited by Cptafw164

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On 4/10/2021 at 11:06 AM, jross said:

Kyle Snyder has the best hardware for college guy... How many losses does Henry Cejudo take if he had wrestled in college?  

I dont know if cehydo struck lighting in a bottle or if he would have been a 4 timer.  He was great in ufc but he didn't really use wrestling as much as he could.

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14 hours ago, IronChef said:

I must admit ignorance.  Cael wrestled before I paid attention to college wrestling and have only seen the few of his matches thst are on YouTube.  

With that said, Cael would have to extremely dominant in every match....not just control but points. 

I didn't like Spencer Lee at first because he beat Nato and I'm a buckeye fan.  

However, after 3 years I can't deny the greatness of Spencer.  How many college guys can get just 1 takedown and then tech a quality opponent in the first period with just back points?

His matches normally end by techs or pins not long after they begin.  I personally think Snyder was the most accomplished college wrestler if we include the international medals.  But even Snyder couldn't completely destroy good opposition inside of 1st period.  He couldn't even get major over Nevilles when dual march depended on it. 

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25 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I must admit ignorance.  Cael wrestled before I paid attention to college wrestling and have only seen the few of his matches thst are on YouTube.  

With that said, Cael would have to extremely dominant in every match....not just control but points. 

I didn't like Spencer Lee at first because he beat Nato and I'm a buckeye fan.  

However, after 3 years I can't deny the greatness of Spencer.  How many college guys can get just 1 takedown and then tech a quality opponent in the first period with just back points?

His matches normally end by techs or pins not long after they begin.  I personally think Snyder was the most accomplished college wrestler if we include the international medals.  But even Snyder couldn't completely destroy good opposition inside of 1st period.  He couldn't even get major over Nevilles when dual march depended on it. 

Too bad Spencer lost those 5 matches. 

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11 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

I must admit ignorance.  Cael wrestled before I paid attention to college wrestling and have only seen the few of his matches thst are on YouTube.  

With that said, Cael would have to extremely dominant in every match....not just control but points. 

I didn't like Spencer Lee at first because he beat Nato and I'm a buckeye fan.  

However, after 3 years I can't deny the greatness of Spencer.  How many college guys can get just 1 takedown and then tech a quality opponent in the first period with just back points?

His matches normally end by techs or pins not long after they begin.  I personally think Snyder was the most accomplished college wrestler if we include the international medals.  But even Snyder couldn't completely destroy good opposition inside of 1st period.  He couldn't even get major over Nevilles when dual march depended on it. 

Not bad, but I think there’s an important difference in the way Lee has gotten to his titles.  Having back and forth series with Picc, Nato, and losing to Seabass takes Spencer out if the discussion IMO.  Spencer’s been kind of a Marinelli reciprocal in terms of the shape of his seasons vs his NCAA’s, he always brings the extra spicy mustard for NCAA’s.

Since Cael was a ways back, the best reference I can offer is Senior Year Jordan Burroughs in terms of utter dominance.  If you have an understanding of the way people approached Burroughs’ matches his senior year, as a completely foregone conclusion to the point of being completely ho hum, all of Cael’s matches were like that, but pretty much everything he did on the mat was 15 years ahead of its time in terms of scrambling, far ankles, and managing/navigating opponents.  If you could take Bo Nickal(20%)David Taylor(40%) and Ed Ruth(40%) and turn them into one dude, that’s kinda how it was to watch Cael.
 

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14 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Too bad Spencer lost those 5 matches. 

As a true freshman Lee lost to Nato.  As Sophmore he lost to Seabass and Picc?  Those aren't bad losses and it can be argued had Cael not redshirt he would have done better early on in his career.  

Look tbarr I respect you and I'm not gonna get in a long drawn out debate with you.  Especially since you might be right.  

I consider accomplishing gold medals while still in college as more of a plus than having a few losses is a negative. That's just me.  It is subjective.  

The truth is thst Uetake, Snyder, Lee, Cael, Dake, and possibly Steveson depending on Olympics all bring something new to table.  It depends what criteria you use. 

You seem to favor being undefeated.  Even though Snyder for instance defeated greater international competition but has a pair of losses..  I think Cael would be lucky to even be close to Snyders record if he gave up as much weight.  Cael would find out the hard way it is tough to shoot on athletic big men when you are smaller.  But this is all speculation.  

Can't we just leave it and say its all speculation?  

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27 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Not bad, but I think there’s an important difference in the way Lee has gotten to his titles.  Having back and forth series with Picc, Nato, and losing to Seabass takes Spencer out if the discussion IMO.  Spencer’s been kind of a Marinelli reciprocal in terms of the shape of his seasons vs his NCAA’s, he always brings the extra spicy mustard for NCAA’s.

Since Cael was a ways back, the best reference I can offer is Senior Year Jordan Burroughs in terms of utter dominance.  If you have an understanding of the way people approached Burroughs’ matches his senior year, as a completely foregone conclusion to the point of being completely ho hum, all of Cael’s matches were like that, but pretty much everything he did on the mat was 15 years ahead of its time in terms of scrambling, far ankles, and managing/navigating opponents.  If you could take Bo Nickal(20%)David Taylor(40%) and Ed Ruth(40%) and turn them into one dude, that’s kinda how it was to watch Cael.
 

Thst sounds like Dake 

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15 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

Thst sounds like Dake 

Definitely, but I’d also say Dake has grown and improved boatloads since he finished college.  I think the best Cael sanderson the world has ever seen was his 2002 senior year at 197, and he kind of stagnated from there.   I can’t say how freestyle made cael better, he just leaned on his excellent leg attacks to get through 2004.

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44 minutes ago, shieldofpistis said:

As a true freshman Lee lost to Nato.  As Sophmore he lost to Seabass and Picc?  Those aren't bad losses and it can be argued had Cael not redshirt he would have done better early on in his career.  

Look tbarr I respect you and I'm not gonna get in a long drawn out debate with you.  Especially since you might be right.  

I consider accomplishing gold medals while still in college as more of a plus than having a few losses is a negative. That's just me.  It is subjective.  

The truth is thst Uetake, Snyder, Lee, Cael, Dake, and possibly Steveson depending on Olympics all bring something new to table.  It depends what criteria you use. 

You seem to favor being undefeated.  Even though Snyder for instance defeated greater international competition but has a pair of losses..  I think Cael would be lucky to even be close to Snyders record if he gave up as much weight.  Cael would find out the hard way it is tough to shoot on athletic big men when you are smaller.  But this is all speculation.  

Can't we just leave it and say its all speculation?  

You can speculate away all of Spencer's losses and further speculate some imaginary losses onto Cael. But this is a college wrestling board and Sanderson is 159-0 in college while everyone else has losses. Frankly, this isn't a hard call.

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57 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You can speculate away all of Spencer's losses and further speculate some imaginary losses onto Cael. But this is a college wrestling board and Sanderson is 159-0 in college while everyone else has losses. Frankly, this isn't a hard so wha

whats your point? You want Cael to have title as best 5 year college wrestling and you want Snyder to have title as best overall wrestler still in college?  

4 titles no loss compared to 3 titles, 1 Olympic gold,1 world championship?  I'd trade a loss or two for a gold. 

Take off your Penn st glasses. I tried to end debate nicely but you are being arrogant in dismissing Olympic and world championships.  

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