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Did your state GOAT come from the pool of undefeated’s?

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47 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You are correct the 2nd lose I was thinking of was a post season all star type meet , so not on his official record....He was 178-1 and lost to Evans at the Bethlehem tournament...the problem with camp is he didn’t have much success post high school, I believe he lost in the blood round as a freshman and I don’t remember him having much freestyle success...compare that to Hahn, suriano, ashnault and mocco are all national champs, I couldn’t put camp above any of them 

I've seen both 175-1 and 178-1. More 175-1. 

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1 hour ago, Icemeister said:

The fact that Wallman was a 6-time high school state champion and went undefeated for 6 straight years (from the seventh grade on), probably makes him the GOAT of SD high school wrestling, even though his post high school career didn't nearly measure up to that of many others.

If you consider post high school accomplishments, then it's probably a toss up between Lewis and McIlravy for the top spot.  Lincoln won 5 state titles and was undefeated from his freshman year on, with 129 consecutive wins.  Randy, as mentioned, went undefeated his last 3 years of high school and held the national consecutive pin record at the time.  

Lewis's consecutive pin streak was a long standing state record that was just broken last year.  That record is now owned by Nash Hutmacher with 73 consecutive pins.  In fact, if only considering high school accomplishments, I would have to put Hutmacher right up there just behind Wallman -- and perhaps even just ahead of Lincoln and Randy (and then Storley).  Hutmacher was a 4-time undefeated state champion with 166 consecutive victories -- and he did it all as a heavyweight (including as a freshman!).

Golly how could I have forgotten Nash so soon?  

Oh yeah...maybe because he went to Nebraska instead of coming here.

Nash won his titles in the larger school division.  Gotta say his competition at heavyweight was a shade less than whom the others regularly scrapped with. 

 

Edited by BadgerMon

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3 hours ago, Mphillips said:

Ohio HS

Logan Steiber, HS4xer 184-1. 4xNCAA champ.

Mark Zimmer, first 4xer. He graduated with 143 consecutive wins(third all time) and went on to become an NCAA All-American at both Wisconsin and Oklahoma.

Jim Jordan(HS 156–1)2xNCAA champ and Jeff Jordan(2xNCAA AA) Both 4xers. They lost one career high school match apiece, but never in the state tournament.

There are a bunch of other 4xers. (twenty nine) It has to be Steiber first and then everyone else in some order.

I picked Zimmer because he was a hero to us wrestling kids and Jordans because of only two losses between them. I know I'm gonna take some grief.

Zimmer also only lost just one.

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22 minutes ago, BadgerMon said:

Golly how could I have forgotten Nash so soon?  

Oh yeah...maybe because he went to Nebraska instead of coming here.

Nash won his titles in the larger school division.  Gotta say his competition at heavyweight was a shade less than whom the others regularly scrapped with. 

 

I tend to agree in regard to Nash's competition, but can't knock him too much for that.

Setting a consecutive pin streak record is a much more rare accomplishment for a lightweight (like Lewis) than it is for a heavyweight (like Hutmacher).  However, on the flip side, it's equally rare for a high school freshman to win a state title (and go undefeated) at heavyweight.  I give Nash a ton of credit for that.  He no doubt faced fewer talented wrestlers during his high school career than the others mentioned, but he nonetheless beat them all, won a national freestyle title at Fargo, and was rated number 1 in the nation at his weight as a senior.  It's too bad we won't get to see him at the next level, but I understand why he chose football over wrestling.  If we only consider high school accomplishments, he has to be right near the top.  

However, I think we all know that there are only 2 wrestlers that can really be considered for South Dakota's GOAT:  Randy and Lincoln (with probably the Sheer brothers next in line).  None of them were undefeated during their high school wrestling career; but McIlravy was undefeated as a high schooler (from ninth grade on), so maybe he gets the slight nod.

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3 hours ago, portajohn said:

Definitely an argument can be made. Only problem is he didn't wrestle all 4 years of high school

I guess it depends on how much value you put into state championships. Personally, I don’t see how Pico gains any points for beating on high schoolers at the CA state tournament or even the Walsh Ironman. Would ~100 more wins over high schoolers really shoot him up on a list of all-timers?
 

It’s hard for me to picture any high schooler in that 138-152 range beat him from 2013-2016 (Pico’s sophomore-senior years) or even really give him a match. Maybe a senior Jason Nolf vs. a sophomore Pico would be a good match, but I think Pico goes right through him. He handled Zain rather easily in 2014–who was already an AA, and he dominated Zain again the following year before Zain went on to go torch the NCAA for three consecutive years. 
 

Molinaro, Metcalf, Humphrey, and Stieber are the only Americans I can recall beating a high school Pico from 2014-16, and they were all already NCAA champs/world team members at that point of their careers. 

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15 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Best HS of all time in Oklahoma? I'd probably go with Kenny Monday or Mike Sheets, both of whom went undefeated in their HS careers with only one blemish: a tie between the two of them. Kenny was a star at Tulsa Washington (4A), and Mike was star at Tahlequah (3A). Fortunately neither had the misfortune of running into me on the mat. John Smith was pretty great in HS, I think he was a 3 time champ, but he had some losses. I'm not sure if Fix lost in Oklahoma HS folk competition, but I know he lost a fair amount of times during FS during that span. 

I know he won 4, but did Todd Chesbro lose in HS?

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35 minutes ago, goStanford18 said:

I guess it depends on how much value you put into state championships. Personally, I don’t see how Pico gains any points for beating on high schoolers at the CA state tournament or even the Walsh Ironman. Would ~100 more wins over high schoolers really shoot him up on a list of all-timers?
 

It’s hard for me to picture any high schooler in that 138-152 range beat him from 2013-2016 (Pico’s sophomore-senior years) or even really give him a match. Maybe a senior Jason Nolf vs. a sophomore Pico would be a good match, but I think Pico goes right through him. He handled Zain rather easily in 2014–who was already an AA, and he dominated Zain again the following year before Zain went on to go torch the NCAA for three consecutive years. 
 

Molinaro, Metcalf, Humphrey, and Stieber are the only Americans I can recall beating a high school Pico from 2014-16, and they were all already NCAA champs/world team members at that point of their careers. 

Yes Folkstyle results should count for all four years.  I can't recall Pico ever placing at a prestigious wrestling tournament like Kolat did at Midlands his Sophmore and Junior years in folkstyle.  I could be wrong.  What year was Pico when he lost to Dean Heil at Super 32s?  When you look at their entire High School careers Kolat won more titles, won at Senior Level competition in Freestlye and beat collegiate wrestlers & placed in a prestigious tournament in Folkstyle

Edited by portajohn

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6 hours ago, portajohn said:

Kolat took 3rd at Midlands when he was a sophomore in High School. Also in High School won the French Open and placed 4th at US Nationals.  Also while in high school Kolat beat NCAA champ Sean O'Day.  Its not debatable. It's why many consider him the greatest high school wrestler ever

I agree with you that Kolat is the best ever HS wrestler from PA and possibly from any state. I was simply trying to point out that there is definitely room for debate because people keep using different criteria to define “GOAT” (I think this was the OP’s point). You are using results that are not on Kolat’s official HS record to justify him as the best HS wrestler ever. I think that’s reasonable but it’s that line of thinking that causes people to debate Snyder (or others) as the GOAT college wrestler instead of Cael.

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3 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree with you that Kolat is the best ever HS wrestler from PA and possibly from any state. I was simply trying to point out that there is definitely room for debate because people keep using different criteria to define “GOAT” (I think this was the OP’s point). You are using results that are not on Kolat’s official HS record to justify him as the best HS wrestler ever. I think that’s reasonable but it’s that line of thinking that causes people to debate Snyder (or others) as the GOAT college wrestler instead of Cael.

Fair enough.  From what I recall Kolat was 137-0.   He pinned or teched 127 of his opponents.  The other 10 were either majors or decisions.  Don't know how that stacks up against Marsteller's undefeated record 

Edited by portajohn

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2 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree with you that Kolat is the best ever HS wrestler from PA and possibly from any state. I was simply trying to point out that there is definitely room for debate because people keep using different criteria to define “GOAT” (I think this was the OP’s point). You are using results that are not on Kolat’s official HS record to justify him as the best HS wrestler ever. I think that’s reasonable but it’s that line of thinking that causes people to debate Snyder (or others) as the GOAT college wrestler instead of Cael.

The criteria should be number of FS senior nationals won!  :)

 

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18 hours ago, Katie said:

Alex Tsirtsis and Chad Red were both undefeated four timers.  They'd be the most likely candidates for high school GOAT.

Escobedo probably had the most impressive overall career for a male wrestler from Indiana: 4x state champ, NCAA champ, 4x AA, and 5th place in the world. 

Other good ones include Reece Humphrey, Andrew Howe, Jason Tsirtsis, Stevan Micic, Nick Lee, Mason Parris, Brayton Lee, etc.

Also, two women's Olympians this year are from Indiana: Sarah Hildebrandt and Kayla Miracle.

Indiana's Lance Ellis was the first undefeated four timer and pretty much dominated everyone.  He graduated in 1989 (I think?) and is 100 percent in the conversation of the Indiana high school GOAT.

Edited by matts1w

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Missouri

Don’t know if he is the GOAT, but ......

Scott Schatzman was a 4x MO Champ (145-0) in the “Large Class” of a 3-class system.  Missouri subsequently went to a 4 class system several years ago.

Schatzman went on to be a 3x AA at Northwestern.

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47 minutes ago, portajohn said:

Yes Folkstyle results should count for all four years.  I can't recall Pico ever placing at a prestigious wrestling tournament like Kolat did at Midlands his Sophmore and Junior years in folkstyle.  I could be wrong.  What year was Pico when he lost to Dean Heil at Super 32s?  When you look at their entire High School careers Kolat won more titles, won at Senior Level competition in Freestlye and beat collegiate wrestlers & placed in a prestigious tournament in Folkstyle


I believe he was an 8th grader entering his freshman year. Heil was entering his senior year.  


Pico never won midlands (or entered), but I have a feeling he could’ve easily won it 3x from his sophomore-senior years if he wanted to. He thrashed Zain in spring/summer 2015, and everyone was avoiding Zain at 149. Pico was also runner-up at the Olympic trials. He beat Ness (Hodge winner), Oliver (2x NCAA champ), Humphrey (multiple world team member), and even took a match off Molinaro. Domestically, I don’t think you can get more prestigious than that. He was a takedown away from being the Rio rep. 
 

I also think he has the better age-group credentials (cadet Gold, 2 junior world medals) than Kolat, and he had more impressive senior-level wins. He beat 2013 world champ Safaryan as a high school Junior. 
 

internationally, he took a few losses, but I’m not sure to who. I know Yazdani and Chamizo beat him, but there were a few others too. 

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44 minutes ago, goStanford18 said:


I believe he was an 8th grader entering his freshman year. Heil was entering his senior year.  


Pico never won midlands (or entered), but I have a feeling he could’ve easily won it 3x from his sophomore-senior years if he wanted to. He thrashed Zain in spring/summer 2015, and everyone was avoiding Zain at 149. Pico was also runner-up at the Olympic trials. He beat Ness (Hodge winner), Oliver (2x NCAA champ), Humphrey (multiple world team member), and even took a match off Molinaro. Domestically, I don’t think you can get more prestigious than that. He was a takedown away from being the Rio rep. 
 

I also think he has the better age-group credentials (cadet Gold, 2 junior world medals) than Kolat, and he had more impressive senior-level wins. He beat 2013 world champ Safaryan as a high school Junior. 
 

internationally, he took a few losses, but I’m not sure to who. I know Yazdani and Chamizo beat him, but there were a few others too. 

We all know what he did internationally but he didn't accomplish half the things Kolat did in Folkstyle.  We can't say he would've won midlands.  Also,  Midlands when Kolat wrestled was in some cases as tough as NCAA's.  Post Grads would wrestle in it.  You can't call Pico the GOAT over Kolat.  He didn't compete at that level and has no proof to show for it.  By your criteria Jimmy Carr should be the High School GOAT of all GOATS because he made the olympic team as a 17 year old

Edited by portajohn

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7 minutes ago, portajohn said:

We all know what he did internationally but he didn't accomplish half the things Kolat did in Folkstyle.  We can't say he would've won midlands.  Also,  Midlands when Kolat wrestled was in some cases as tough as NCAA's.  Post Grads would wrestle in it.  You can't call Pico the GOAT over Kolat.  He didn't compete at that level and has no proof to show for it. 

Based off what they accomplished in high school only, I don’t see how Kolat really has an argument over Pico. Kolat beating a bunch of high schoolers in folk style doesn’t do it for me. CA has one of the toughest state tournaments, and Pico won it. Walsh Ironman is the toughest national tournament, and he also won that. There wasn’t much left to prove scholastically in folk style. IMO, racking up another 100 wins against a lot of guys who would never go to the D1 level or AA does nothing for his legacy. 
 

I’ll take 5 wins to none against Zain Retherford, wins over JO, Humphrey, Molinaro and a win against Safaryan over Kolat placing at Midlands and placing at WTT trials. He literally beat a world champion and a handful of NCAA champs as a high schooler. I don’t see 19-23 year old Pico taking 7 losses at the NCAA level like Kolat did (or running away from any wrestlers either), but I suppose it’s true that we’ll never know.

 

Looks like we strongly disagree on the importance of high school folk style wins. 

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4 minutes ago, goStanford18 said:

Based off what they accomplished in high school only, I don’t see how Kolat really has an argument over Pico. Kolat beating a bunch of high schoolers in folk style doesn’t do it for me. CA has one of the toughest state tournaments, and Pico won it. Walsh Ironman is the toughest national tournament, and he also won that. There wasn’t much left to prove scholastically in folk style. IMO, racking up another 100 wins against a lot of guys who would never go to the D1 level or AA does nothing for his legacy. 
 

I’ll take 5 wins to none against Zain Retherford, wins over JO, Humphrey, Molinaro and a win against Safaryan over Kolat placing at Midlands and placing at WTT trials. He literally beat a world champion and a handful of NCAA champs as a high schooler. I don’t see 19-23 year old Pico taking 7 losses at the NCAA level like Kolat did (or running away from any wrestlers either), but I suppose it’s true that we’ll never know.

 

Looks like we strongly disagree on the importance of high school folk style wins. 

Nothing against Pico.  But, I've never heard his name discussed in top 5 High School Wrestlers of all Time.  Him dropping out of Folk is why.  You seem fixated on naming Aaron the GOAT but by your own criteria he falls short to Jimmy Carr.  He should be 2nd on your own list. 

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If Pico winning CA puts him over Kolat because CA has one of the toughest tournaments and he won it, then by that logic Seth Nevills should be beating Gable Steveson. 

Pico's freestyle results are great, but so were Jimmy Carr's and he lost a h.s. folk match after beating an Olympic medalist in free.

 

Edited by TBar1977

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23 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Are we allowed to use our eyeballs in developing our own opinion on who would be better than who, or is that against the rules?  Just trying to figure this whole thing out. 

Good idea.  Cary Kolat it is.

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34 minutes ago, portajohn said:

Nothing against Pico.  But, I've never heard his name discussed in top 5 High School Wrestlers of all Time.  Him dropping out of Folk is why.  You seem fixated on naming Aaron the GOAT but by your own criteria he falls short to Jimmy Carr.  He should be 2nd on your own list. 

Touché. I will admit Jimmy Carr is way before my time, and I didn’t even think to consider anyone pre-80s. FWIW, I do think Kolat is without a doubt a top 5 all-time wrestler in high school. 
 

I agree that Pico is often excluded since he stopped folk style after his freshman year. If we’re excluding him here, then I’d have to change my pick—but I don’t think I’d take any other CA guy over Kolat’s resume. 
 

30 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

If Pico winning CA puts him over Kolat because CA has one of the toughest tournaments and he won it, then by that logic Seth Nevills should be beating Gable Steveson. 

 


What??? I literally said Seth isn’t even in my top 15 CA wrestlers despite his 1XX-1 high school record and 4 state titles. In fact, I said none of the CA 4-timers would crack my top 15 from CA.

 

I said Pico had little to nothing to prove scholastically on the folk style scene after his freshman year. He went to the toughest national tournaments and beat nearly everyone there was to beat in his weight range. He won Ironman during the winter that featured all the top dogs at 132. He smashed McKenna at 138 in the spring, and he wrecked Retherford the following year (who was fresh off his first AA honor)—but those matches were in freestyle. I’m simply taking him over Kolat because I believe he objectively accomplished more in freestyle than Kolat did as a high schooler.  
 

 

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5 minutes ago, goStanford18 said:

Touché. I will admit Jimmy Carr is way before my time, and I didn’t even think to consider anyone pre-80s. FWIW, I do think Kolat is without a doubt a top 5 all-time wrestler in high school. 
 

I agree that Pico is often excluded since he stopped folk style after his freshman year. If we’re excluding him here, then I’d have to change my pick—but I don’t think I’d take any other CA guy over Kolat’s resume. 

It's all good.  Pico in my opinion is the greatest "what if" in US wrestling history.  I was just thinking, based on your thought process, if I were to take one CA wrestler to name the GOAT it would hands down be Dave Shutlz.  I don't know if a high schooler could ever replicate what he did his Senior year.  Took silver at the Tbillsi Tournament ,then winning a state championship two weight classes up, followed by winning the US Open in Greco.  Hard to beat that

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Kolat also tied Chris Bono at Dapper Dan his senior year, right?  That's a hard one to get over for me every time this comes up...  I know Kolat won a HS senior nationals bracket after that Bono was in but the greatest of all time shouldn't have tied a fellow high schooler in his final home state match. 

Edit to say I meant greatest high school wrestler of all time debates, not Pennsylvania. 

Edited by Gantry

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55 minutes ago, portajohn said:

It's all good.  Pico in my opinion is the greatest "what if" in US wrestling history.  I was just thinking, based on your thought process, if I were to take one CA wrestler to name the GOAT it would hands down be Dave Shutlz.  I don't know if a high schooler could ever replicate what he did his Senior year.  Took silver at the Tbillsi Tournament ,then winning a state championship two weight classes up, followed by winning the US Open in Greco.  Hard to beat that


agreed. Dave Schultz is easily my #1 all-time CA guy, considering all accolades at any level. The Mount Rushmore of CA wrestling would be the Schultz Brothers, Varner, and Abas—with Neal just missing the cut. 
 

Based purely on high school accolades, CA is a lot harder to rank. 
 

For PA, I think it’s easily Kolat.
 

I’m a big Marsteller fan, but I don’t think he had any signature wins against other blue chips his last two years in high school. He didn’t do much on the freestyle circuit after his sophomore year either. I thought a one-year older BoJo and IMar could beat him in 2013. I also think a younger Mark Hall and Anthony Valencia would’ve given him all he could handle in 2014. Chance’s best win during that time was probably an OT match against Weircoch. I think the 4 guys I mentioned above would’ve torched Weircoch. I’m pretty sure BoJo teched him a year later or so into college. Marsteller did eventually meet a younger Hall at the 2015 Junior Trial Finals and Hall destroyed him in less than 30 seconds. 

 

Spencer Lee is mentioned too for PA, but IMO his lack of size hurts him. He didn’t grow into 125 until he hit college, so he did not have any crazy wins against older wrestlers. He does hold cadet and junior world titles, but they’re all at 50kg. Frankly, his losses to DeSanto and Fix take him out of the running for me.

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