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Drew87

T/F: Baumgartner > Burroughs

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I submit Bruce Baumgartner over Jordan Burroughs as the best ever out of NJ.

Baumgartner gets overlooked in every one of these discussions, the man had 9 world medals along with 4 olympic medals. Two olympic golds and three other world golds...

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Heavyweights generally get overlooked. Less athleticism and eye test factor means less respect. If hardware is the dominant factor, there’s a very good case for Big Bruce. He had a ridiculously long stretch of consecutive medals, maybe one year off from medaling. The 84 Olympic gold is cheapened by the boycott, but it’s hard to argue he would not have at least medaled in fully contested games since he medaled the year before and after, although not gold. 

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16 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Heavyweights generally get overlooked. Less athleticism and eye test factor means less respect. If hardware is the dominant factor, there’s a very good case for Big Bruce. He had a ridiculously long stretch of consecutive medals, maybe one year off from medaling. The 84 Olympic gold is cheapened by the boycott, but it’s hard to argue he would not have at least medaled in fully contested games since he medaled the year before and after, although not gold. 

Bruce also carried the American flag for opening ceremonies in the 1996 Olympics. Ultra rare honor that not many people walking this earth can say. Just looked it up he was the first and so far only American wrestler to ever have the honor of flag barrier.

Edited by Sublime607

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JB’s place was in interesting dynamic in my opinion going into the trials. Had he won and won gold, many, myself included, could make an argument he was top on the American list. Now, having not made the team, it’s possible by the end of the Games he could be arguably #4 on the list. 

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

JB’s place was in interesting dynamic in my opinion going into the trials. Had he won and won gold, many, myself included, could make an argument he was top on the American list. Now, having not made the team, it’s possible by the end of the Games he could be arguably #4 on the list. 

I know we almost lost wrestling as a Olympic sport a few years back but why can't worlds have the best wrestlers in the tournament regardless of country. The event and venue is solely dedicated to the sport of wrestling for that tournament. I don't care if the Russians sweep the medals in a weight I want to see who the best in the world is and we don't get that when the number 2 and 3 guys are sometimes sitting home.

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1 minute ago, Sublime607 said:

I know we almost lost wrestling as a Olympic sport a few years back but why can't worlds have the best wrestlers in the tournament regardless of country. The event and venue is solely dedicated to the sport of wrestling for that tournament. I don't care if the Russians sweep the medals in a weight I want to see who the best in the world is and we don't get that when the number 2 and 3 guys are sometimes sitting home.

I hear ya but not a fan. I personally prefer representation of the teams. Every level championship, state, ncaa, world....there are people sitting at home better than someone in the tournament. Give me the best in each country competing against each other for the best in the world. To be the best in the world, you gotta be best on your team first, right?

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Just now, Lurker said:

I hear ya but not a fan. I personally prefer representation of the teams. Every level championship, state, ncaa, world....there are people sitting at home better than someone in the tournament. Give me the best in each country competing against each other for the best in the world. To be the best in the world, you gotta be best on your team first, right?

True but it puts doubt on silver and bronze.

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1 minute ago, Sublime607 said:

True but it puts doubt on silver and bronze.

Yeah but even in the one tournament, the medal color doesn’t always equate to the actual ‘ladder”, the draw can have as much to do with that. 
 

It’s competition. You get what you earn...

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This is a tough one to answer. Personally, I lean towards Burroughs because I’ve seen his career (maybe that makes me biased) and know how close he was to being hands down the GOAT in USA. I can’t help but think of his razor thin losses to Geduev and Sidakov x2. I know you can’t get credit for losses, but they could have so easily gone the other way and there would be no question. 

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^I should add that I know Baumgartners career was checkered with losses but I have no idea how close they were. Maybe he is in the same situation... I was guessing by the number of losses that he probably just wasn’t the best guy a few of the years.

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2 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Also worth remembering Baumgartner was in the era of one bronze, not the weird judo feel good situation with two bronzes we have now.

If we are going to play that game we must also mention that JB competed against multiple former Soviets in the bracket and the opposition was concentrated into six or seven weight classes for much of his career.

Edited by JHRoseWrestling
Typo

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12 minutes ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

If we are going to play that game we must also mention that JB competed against multiple former Soviets in the bracket and the opposition was concentrated into six or seven weight classes for much of his career.

Absolutely true, and honestly it’s not relevant to this, I just don’t like the two bronze medal thing. 

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5 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Also worth remembering Baumgartner was in the era of one bronze, not the weird judo feel good situation with two bronzes we have now.

Is it worth mentioning?  How many bronze does JB have?  Would he have less?

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4 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I agree. But wasn’t he in the super heavy weight class that doesn’t exist anymore? 

Collegiately definitely. International changed somewhere around there. He did a couple early years. Interesting that at least on Wikipedia it shows an overlap between Olympics/Worlds/Goodwill/World Cup as to when it changed.
So if this discussion revolved around Olympics- no.
 

Olympic Games
Olympic rings without rims.svg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Los Angeles 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Seoul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1992 Barcelona 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1996 Atlanta 130 kg
Goodwill Games
Gold medal – first place 1986 Moscow +100 kg
Summer Universiade
Gold medal – first place 1981 Bucharest +100 kg
World Championships
Bronze medal – third place 1983 Kiev +100 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1985 Budapest 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Budapest 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1987 Clermont-Ferrand 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1989 Martigny 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1990 Tokyo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1993 Toronto 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1994 Istanbul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Atlanta 130 kg
World Cup
Silver medal – second place 1982 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1990 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1993 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1994 Edmonton 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1995 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1997 Stillwater 125 kg
Pan American Games
Silver medal – second place 1983 Caracas 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Havana 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Mar de Plata 130 kg
Pan American Championships
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1988 Mexico City 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Colorado Springs 130 kg

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13 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Collegiately definitely. International changed somewhere around there. He did a couple early years. Interesting that at least on Wikipedia it shows an overlap between Olympics/Worlds/Goodwill/World Cup as to when it changed.
So if this discussion revolved around Olympics- no.
 

Olympic Games
Olympic rings without rims.svg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Los Angeles 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Seoul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1992 Barcelona 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1996 Atlanta 130 kg
Goodwill Games
Gold medal – first place 1986 Moscow +100 kg
Summer Universiade
Gold medal – first place 1981 Bucharest +100 kg
World Championships
Bronze medal – third place 1983 Kiev +100 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1985 Budapest 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Budapest 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1987 Clermont-Ferrand 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1989 Martigny 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1990 Tokyo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1993 Toronto 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1994 Istanbul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Atlanta 130 kg
World Cup
Silver medal – second place 1982 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1990 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1993 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1994 Edmonton 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1995 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1997 Stillwater 125 kg
Pan American Games
Silver medal – second place 1983 Caracas 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Havana 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Mar de Plata 130 kg
Pan American Championships
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1988 Mexico City 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Colorado Springs 130 kg

Fair enough. Wasn’t sure

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Collegiately definitely. International changed somewhere around there. He did a couple early years. Interesting that at least on Wikipedia it shows an overlap between Olympics/Worlds/Goodwill/World Cup as to when it changed.
So if this discussion revolved around Olympics- no.
 

Olympic Games
Olympic rings without rims.svg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Los Angeles 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Seoul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1992 Barcelona 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1996 Atlanta 130 kg
Goodwill Games
Gold medal – first place 1986 Moscow +100 kg
Summer Universiade
Gold medal – first place 1981 Bucharest +100 kg
World Championships
Bronze medal – third place 1983 Kiev +100 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1985 Budapest 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Budapest 130 kg
Bronze medal – third place 1987 Clermont-Ferrand 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1989 Martigny 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1990 Tokyo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1993 Toronto 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1994 Istanbul 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Atlanta 130 kg
World Cup
Silver medal – second place 1982 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1984 Toledo +100 kg
Gold medal – first place 1986 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1988 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1990 Toledo 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Toledo 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1993 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1994 Edmonton 130 kg
Silver medal – second place 1995 Chattanooga 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1997 Stillwater 125 kg
Pan American Games
Silver medal – second place 1983 Caracas 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1991 Havana 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1995 Mar de Plata 130 kg
Pan American Championships
Gold medal – first place 1987 Indianapolis 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1988 Mexico City 130 kg
Gold medal – first place 1989 Colorado Springs 130 kg

Damn reading this made me feel old.  Indianapolis Pan Am games was first international tournament I'd ever been to.

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14 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

^I should add that I know Baumgartners career was checkered with losses but I have no idea how close they were. Maybe he is in the same situation... I was guessing by the number of losses that he probably just wasn’t the best guy a few of the years.

It was hard to follow international wrestling in those days, but I remember almost all his loses were close and most of his big wins were as well. Most years it seemed like he was a guy that could win Gold if things went well for him.  IMO, Bruce never was clearly the best in the world at his weight class like Burroughs was at his peak.

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18 minutes ago, Jim L said:

It was hard to follow international wrestling in those days, but I remember almost all his loses were close and most of his big wins were as well. Most years it seemed like he was a guy that could win Gold if things went well for him.  IMO, Bruce never was clearly the best in the world at his weight class like Burroughs was at his peak.

Great comment. Peak achievement easily goes to JB. Better career? I favor Big Bruce because while he was never as clearly the best as JB was, he was also more consistently among the top 2-3 and the ridiculously long history of medals proves it. 

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50 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Great comment. Peak achievement easily goes to JB. Better career? I favor Big Bruce because while he was never as clearly the best as JB was, he was also more consistently among the top 2-3 and the ridiculously long history of medals proves it. 

BB and JB were both incredible wrestlers and certainly deserving of respect in any era.

Nerd you state that you favor Bruce, with JB being the best (at a specific point).  What are your thoughts on John Smith in relation to both and his 6 year Golden run?

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